Well, that was in all honestly....kind of disappointing....I think I'm more upset with the way the battle was fought and...won...then even Rickon dying(and that wasn't what I wanted by any means)....
At least Ramsey bought it. Dat kinslaying and karma....
- Oh my god, Jon is SUCH AN IDIOT. Seriously, you got killed the first damn time because you basically acted like Ned at his most boneheaded, and you almost bought it again for the same reason. I get that he's a genuinely good guy, but damn he's DUMB. Sansa was, like, the most sensible person there. Well, Sansa and Tormund.
- Sad to see Wun Wun go, but also not surprised. I thought he'd buy it going up against the shield wall.
- In terms of strategy, basically Ramsey did exactly what Jon planned to do to him: goad him into an attack, and then envelop him and destroy him.
- Rickon...yeah, he was bound to die. Sansa called it. Once Ramsey had him, he had no reason to keep him alive (other than to manipulate Jon), and every reason to kill him.
- The sequence with the English soccer riot at the end was appropriately disturbing. The sequences with Jon beating the hell out of Ramsey, and then Sansa watching him be devoured by his own hounds were appropriately satisfying. Again, I'm with Sansa. I watched that and just said to myself "Good. ****er had it coming."
- I knew -- KNEW -- that pretty much the only thing that'd save Jon was a flanking cavalry charge by the knights of the Vale. I was watching with my wife and said "Jon should've kept a reserve of cavalry and then used them to ride into Ramsey's flank and roll up his side." And that's basically what he (actually Sansa) did.
- So, how do folks think this benefits Littlefinger? I think it just sows more chaos, because the North -- at least with houses Karstark and Umber, and anyone who remains loyal to Bolton -- will be at war with the Starks. The North is far from united, AND Petyr now has a military force present in the region. The thing is, if Littlefinger is the analogue to Richard Neville, Earl of Warwick, then he'll probably flit back and forth one too many times between the Northern powers, and the Southern powers. I expect he'll end up with his head adorning a pike in either Winterfell or King's Landing, or possibly flying out the Moon Door when Robin has a fit of pique. Particularly if Sansa manipulates Robin into it.
- At this point, I think the most likely outcome is that Sansa marries Robin, and ends up as de facto rule of the Vale (and de jure ruler of the North). That'll probably be how Littlefinger bites it. He'll push his manipulations too far, and Sansa will outmaneuver him with her "womanly charms" by convincing Robin that Petyr is a "bad man" whom he should "make fly." Actually, I suppose if he's truly a 100% Warwick analogue, he'll lead some fight against the Starks and end up killed in the battle. But I kinda like the idea of him losing at his own game. I've always enjoyed Petyr as a character, and dug the whole "behind the scenes master manipulator" thing, but I've never had any illusions about his ability to actually succeed.
This is less spoilery, but, narratively speaking, I have to say that this season has felt very...uneven. It's felt like a lot of building up to things, but they then abruptly -- and somewhat unsatisfyingly -- occur. And the occurrence itself just doesn't quite seem...right. Like, Dany's resolution of the Meereenese Blot (so far) was oddly unsatisfying. It's over in an instant, and she seems determined to remain a craptastic rule (but an awesome conqueror). Jon, on the other hand, seems determined to remain a competent commander who is consistently bedeviled by his sense of duty and honor (which would make him a crappy conqueror but a terrific ruler). Ramsey got what was coming to him, but in a manner that just seemed somehow off. Like, the battle sequence was at once overly long and all too brief. I think some of that was how it was shot from a very personal point of view, rather than showing much of large formations moving across the field.
I'm reminded of three other truly spectacular films that handled enormous battle sequences really well: Cromwell (1970), Waterloo (1970), and Ten to Chi to (a.k.a. Heaven & Earth) (1990). Cromwell shows the battle at Naseby, I believe, in some detail. Waterloo shows the battle of...Waterloo...and it's absolutely mindblowing to watch. Heaven & Earth shows the 4th battle of Kawanakajima and is similarly mind-blowing to watch. These are all older films that probably had MUCH bigger budgets than GOT, but also depicted battle sequences in truly epic fashion. GOT has been masterful at turning battle sequences into epics in spite of not being able to really show a ton. But I still find that...limiting. when they do show large-scale battles, the shots are very brief and over quite quickly.
I dunno. I just kinda feel like after ALL the build-up, the show's resolution of stuff this season seems oddly abrupt and somewhat...hmm....too direct, I suppose. I kind of think that the books will handle this stuff a lot better in some respects. The show's great at condensing plot threads and boiling down to essentials, but I can see more of the "TV sensibilities" of the show this season than the novelistic sensibilities of Martin. I guess that's to be expected, but I find the novelistic version a bit more satisfying in this case.
- Oh my god, Jon is SUCH AN IDIOT. Seriously, you got killed the first damn time because you basically acted like Ned at his most boneheaded, and you almost bought it again for the same reason. I get that he's a genuinely good guy, but damn he's DUMB. Sansa was, like, the most sensible person there. Well, Sansa and Tormund.
- Sad to see Wun Wun go, but also not surprised. I thought he'd buy it going up against the shield wall.
- In terms of strategy, basically Ramsey did exactly what Jon planned to do to him: goad him into an attack, and then envelop him and destroy him.
- Rickon...yeah, he was bound to die. Sansa called it. Once Ramsey had him, he had no reason to keep him alive (other than to manipulate Jon), and every reason to kill him.
- The sequence with the English soccer riot at the end was appropriately disturbing. The sequences with Jon beating the hell out of Ramsey, and then Sansa watching him be devoured by his own hounds were appropriately satisfying. Again, I'm with Sansa. I watched that and just said to myself "Good. ****er had it coming."
- I knew -- KNEW -- that pretty much the only thing that'd save Jon was a flanking cavalry charge by the knights of the Vale. I was watching with my wife and said "Jon should've kept a reserve of cavalry and then used them to ride into Ramsey's flank and roll up his side." And that's basically what he (actually Sansa) did.
- So, how do folks think this benefits Littlefinger? I think it just sows more chaos, because the North -- at least with houses Karstark and Umber, and anyone who remains loyal to Bolton -- will be at war with the Starks. The North is far from united, AND Petyr now has a military force present in the region. The thing is, if Littlefinger is the analogue to Richard Neville, Earl of Warwick, then he'll probably flit back and forth one too many times between the Northern powers, and the Southern powers. I expect he'll end up with his head adorning a pike in either Winterfell or King's Landing, or possibly flying out the Moon Door when Robin has a fit of pique. Particularly if Sansa manipulates Robin into it.
- At this point, I think the most likely outcome is that Sansa marries Robin, and ends up as de facto rule of the Vale (and de jure ruler of the North). That'll probably be how Littlefinger bites it. He'll push his manipulations too far, and Sansa will outmaneuver him with her "womanly charms" by convincing Robin that Petyr is a "bad man" whom he should "make fly."
I think that's where I was let down with in the battle. For all Jon's experiences being at the wall, north of the Wall, all the fighting, the battle at the Wall, Hardhome....he still knows nothing. That and the lack of the "Northern Conspiracy". I really wanted the Umbers to turn on the Bolton/Karstark forces. The giants at the wall seemed like much more hardened warriors then WunWun during this battle. Yeah, probably his first time against armored warriors but I kept waiting for him to really turn the tide on that shield wall with some type of club or weapon but he was unarmed since the battle at the Wall. Other than that, the battle was really good. Very visceral, in your face. Especially with the cavalries engaged. I can imagine it being that difficult or confusing.
I too think that Littlefinger's ability to manipulate are at an end and before he knows it he'll find a blade in his belly or neck. I wonder if he's so vain to proclaim to Sansa how this whole thing happened because of him and how he did it for(to get) Catlyn and now doing it for(to get) her. It looks like something's coming to a head in the "next on GoT" preview between them.
Wunwun was a massive let down. He could have grabed a sheild or two and run down atleast one of the walls. Even boot kick a sheild to the moon is better than anything else he did.
Its the season of the last second save. All hope is lost and death looks to grip hold of a character. Suddenly someone saves them from out of no where.
Re: Wun Wun's tactics, I kept thinking "Dude, you can pick up and tear a man in half. Have you considered THROWING ONE OR TWO INTO THE SHIELD WALL TO KNOCK IT DOWN AND OPEN A HOLE?!"
Wun Wun could easily have been the tip of the spear to punch out of that kind of envelopment.
Even if Rickon had run at the slightest angle towards Jon across that distance, he would have been near impossible for even the best archers to hit. The end result was predictable, so the resulting scene was more frustrating than dramatic.
I think the problem with the writers and producers of GoT is that they like to wait until around the end of the season to really resolve anything. All season long it's nothing but build up and teasing of things to come but none of that comes to fruition until near the end of the season and as a result it feels rushed because it's mostly resolved in just one episode. They really need to learn how to pace things better and learn not to resolve everything at once in one episode towards the end of the season.
Jon and I are no longer friends after that cock up of a battle. I can forgive the initial rushing in because Jon is stupid and doesn't always think before he acts. However, what I cannot forgive is him and all those seasoned warriors standing there with their thumbs up their collective asses, allowing the Boltons to take their time setting up a shield wall around them.
And FFS, where is WunWun's club that he was using earlier?!
Thing is is that a shield wall is effective BUT not backed by spears or pikes. The advantage of leverage would go to the defenders, IE yank the spears out of their hands or go under and up, the front line negates the spears and the guys behind literally climb over them and start hacking away. The reason the Romans were so effective is they used the shield wall with the Gladius, they'd just start marching and stabbing, try to grab the sword and lose your hand, don't move and get shived. Alas the world of Westeros doesn't have a concept of the short sword, The Unsulllied would be 3X as dangerous if they had short swords and tactics. it's all Longswords and ******* Swords. Give me a Roman Legion, and in a straight up battle I'd **** any army in the 7 kingdoms.
