All kit producers read

[Jedi Dade]

As for anigrand... the falcon is a scaled scan. the errors in the original were exactly duplicated.

the SD wherever they scaned that from - if they did is 1 hell of a model that I've never seen before. It doesn't have the same "tells" as a RC SD... which is where I "expected" their master to be based from...

The Mon Cal cruiser - DAMN close the Scott Spicer kit, but a little different - very little...

the rest of their kits I have not touched so I can't definitively comment on.


However the problem of digital recasting is serious for this hobby. The tech exists and is getting cheaper daily. My "hope" is that it does not kill the kit producers, rather the tech becoems cheap enough that it can be leveraged by kit producers so that the "first generations" that they make are cheaper, and faster to create - making the return a bit easier to manage... My fear is that the day where it can be leveraged by kit producers may be too far off, and/or that it may not be a significant advantage over hunting original kits down and hacking them up. But there may be a day when all of those old rare kits are scanned and the files are stored by "us" (or several of "us") and shared to create XYZ. Growing our own parts as needed for various studio scale projects. I understand that this may be a pipe dream, but hey - I'm a positive type guy If anyone is willing to start scanning I'll purchase the hard drive space to archive it all :thumbsup I'd do it gladly! I'm a decent modeler - but I'm an awesome computer geek :lol

Jedi Dade

 

[BrundelFly]

Jefe, yes Ill get back to ya.

Lancer, limited Runs work better in some ways, but over all its a bit of a wash.
Case in point, the Raptor, no one really wants the original Kit that was available, new and improved versions are coming out.

Re: Anigrad, Im not trying to SLAM them as BAD guys. Look at DIAMOND, they have a 1/4 scale Indy toy, most definately based on the Side Show, howeve, I bet they have it licensed and its legal.

Ok so there are illegal versions of stuff too. the smaller Falcon, by Anigrad. Is it gonna stop me from buying one? (provided they are still available) probably not. Just being honest.


Oneye,
If you read the post, you will see that I indeed state that this is nothing new. However, the point is to what degree technology is accelerating the pace.


My opinion waffles on whats GOOD or BAD. I guess its subjective for each of us.
Again, not the point of the thread. The point is the forementioned pace, and the fact that AS a kit producer, its time to reconsider certain projects.

Thats all Im saying, please dont read more into it. Just kickin a can around the fire so to speak.

 

[SD Studios]

Ok, I can comment on the licensed stuff. And why copies happen there...

And since I am now a "civilian" I can talk without worrying about ticking off some studio rep, cause I don't need to care :lol

Licensors NEVER want to supply a licensee with reference. EV-ER.

I have worked with almost every studio since 1994 and I can tell you it is like pulling teeth to get reference. You have to beg, wait months, finally get some crazy, useless data and then...have to go get it yourself.

Lucasfilm started out that way, but we gradually got them to understand the importance of supplying us with a solid flow of good reference (when available). Initially, Lucas was NOT going to let us into the archive. The licensing reps told us that that THEY don't even get to go in there.

We were the ONLY licensee (at that time) that was allowed on-going, regular access to the archive. And that was because there were some early-on, very heated contract debates, where we said that if we didn't get access to the original props, there was no license deal. (phew...that could have gone badly...) :lol Even then, it had to gradually evolve into the relationship that finally had.

The licensing people used to come in to the archive with us and say: "I have never been in here...the only way I got in, was to come in with you guys..."

I would joke with them..."That is sad."

They would respond: "Tell me about it..."

That is why the Code 3 models are inaccurate. They were only given photos to work from.

Other studios basically tell you up-front, to go find it yourself. (or give you a few goofy reference images and tell you to create something great from that.)

If you don't literally SCREAM for proper reference on a on-going basis, they won't lift a finger. I became a whiney, pestering, pain in the butt and chased them on a weekly basis. But then they most-likely think you are a jerk for bothering them so much. :lol

That is why so many licensees create inaccurate replicas. The studio doesn't offer them reference and they don't bother to try to get it. So they make something kinda close from pictures (or swipe some unlicensed replica and copy that) and they are all happy as a clam.

So, if a licensee copies your "license-challanged" replica, you have to understand WHY they did it. I am not saying it is right...I am just explaining why some companies do that. They generally don't have any other recourse.

Funny story...

When I was with Unobtainium, I met with Paramount for reference on the 32-inch Enterprise replica we were proposing to make.

They gave us a handful of the usual publicity stills that we have all seen. I said "Thanks, but we need dimensions, geometry, color reference, etc etc."

They said: "Franklin Mint released a diecast Enterprise not too long ago...it is pretty accurate...if you use that for reference, we will approve it...do you need us to get you one?"

"Um...no thanks."

Can you imagine? A 32-inch version of that (white) diecast Enterprise Toy-like monstrosity. The one with the giant bridge in the saucer and the 70-foot-long shuttlecraft parked in the slide-out hangar deck like a car? I have one, so I can rag on it. My Aunt bought it for me as a gift. It is AWFUL.

We ended up getting a set of E blueprints from Frank! (They were not completely correct) but Frank didn't know that at the time, and neither did we. So I am still appreciative for Frankie coming through for us. That is all we could get our hands on at that time.

For the props, post-MR, you KNOW that Paramount told their licensees..."MR made a communicator off of original reference....just use that".

Or...

"Hey Diamond... HMS/Rod.com made a pretty-good phaser replica...it is ok to use THAT for all of your advertising images until you have a first-shot from the tooling."

Ditto on the tricorder...

Because they do that every day...over and over and over...Even the Experience store ripped off the com. They recast their own licensed product.

It happens all of the time, guys.

Amen.

 

[judgedredd]

There doesn't seem to be any evidence to back up the recasting on the scale you suggest i am not saying its not happening but i don't see how it would be big business for most re-casters? This is a fairly small niche market. Correct me if i am wrong Iam sure someone will.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

Still. It is enough to see the beginnings of the model kit community over at The Clubhouse to consider private by invitation tightness of their hobby.

I didn't know about this thread until I was referred to it on The Clubhouse.

This really oughta be moved to the props section as it will soon likely also affect prop makers.

 

[REL]

Actually this is the beginning of the end of the hand made master pattern anyway. It's being replaced by meshes and 3d printers.

Anigrand designs the entire kit in the computer, then has it grown or printed, ready for molding. That's why their stuff goes together and fits so well.

They completely avoid the model maker covered in bondo dust slaving away under a dim bulb next to the family car in his garage.

Just like the movie industry, hand made models are being used for 3d scanning when it's absolutely necessary, otherwise it's a step they would rather avoid altogether. So the few garage kits that may be scanned and made smaller will only last so long, then us dinosaurs will be terminated by the asteroid that looks eerily like a giant 3d printer hurtling through the sky.

 

[Lear60man]

I just watched an Online vid about the company that made the 1:1 scale Bumblebee Transformer. They had a rapid prototyping rig that spit out one hell of a model. Im sure it was accurate down to the last mm. This is the future folks. Looking at some of the 3D renderings of X-wings here, it is apparent that the blood sweat and Bondo days are being taken over with 'run file'.

Its not going to stop us folks from making stuff but it sure is going to put a damper on the drive of the 'garage kit' guy. Who is going to want to make say a scale Probe Droid just to have Kim Lee scan it, take out any imperfections and churn out a few hundred? I wouldln't. Forget the financial side, just getting ripped off is incentive enough.

 

[ralphee]

There doesn't seem to be any evidence to back up the recasting on the scale you suggest i am not saying its not happening but i don't see how it would be big business for most re-casters? This is a fairly small niche market. Correct me if i am wrong Iam sure someone will.

It is a small niche market, granted, but when you have some lowlife maggot, with a Gallon of cheap resin, its easy pickings, and yes, ill be betting they will be profitting very nicely for all the time it takes them to pour out a kit that is basically Swiss cheese for maybe $300 a pop?
Factor in the time in pattern building, kit ID research etc etc, that the original GK vendor and team put in.......yeah there on a winner with that Gallon or so of resin.
Open your eyes a little, if you check it out, Frank mentioned the Icons X wing, that was doing the rounds as a recast kit in Asia for a long long time, hell i even pondered the buy once upon a time.
Very cool point to add too, is the fact we cant just blame Asia for this behaviour, much recasting goes on in the UK, and US before it even reaches China or Thailand.
With much hindsight, you wouldnt sell to some individuals as they have now been outed, but," hubba hubba hubba, who do ya trust? "

lee

 

[BrundelFly]

Brother Steve, Brother Ralphee....thanks for that! So true!

Appreciate your input. It's always interesting to see how the Hobby is evolving and what the real influences are that effect it.


Frank

 

[BrianM]

Gentalmen please forward the address in China where I may send money for my 1:6 scale Viper???

angry

hehe
BrianM

 

[judgedredd]

Fair enough i guess i dont surf ebay often enough i did get recast by a guy in USA recently

It is a small niche market, granted, but when you have some lowlife maggot, with a Gallon of cheap resin, its easy pickings, and yes, ill be betting they will be profitting very nicely for all the time it takes them to pour out a kit that is basically Swiss cheese for maybe $300 a pop?
Factor in the time in pattern building, kit ID research etc etc, that the original GK vendor and team put in.......yeah there on a winner with that Gallon or so of resin.
Open your eyes a little, if you check it out, Frank mentioned the Icons X wing, that was doing the rounds as a recast kit in Asia for a long long time, hell i even pondered the buy once upon a time.
Very cool point to add too, is the fact we cant just blame Asia for this behaviour, much recasting goes on in the UK, and US before it even reaches China or Thailand.
With much hindsight, you wouldnt sell to some individuals as they have now been outed, but," hubba hubba hubba, who do ya trust? "

lee

 

[JoslinFX]

I am a professional model maker who produced many star trek and other sci fi kits in the 90's in the UK, and producing masters for a resin kit that is vertually impossible to rip off, let alone easy to rip off, isnt actually that hard.
The problem is, resin kit makers prodominantly make there patterns so simple, on the basis that the costomer is so thick, the kit needs to be simple. This is actually not true if it as instructions. Resin collectors are predominantly skilled model makers, so complexity is a good thing.

To give your self some semblance of security, that your kit wont be recast, make it as complicated and as detailed as possible. for example:

I am in the process creating the most complexed and detailed 1/24 Studio Scale X-Wing kit, as a X-wing would be if it was a real vehicle, with as much detail as a 1/24 Tamyia Air craft kit, which dont exist... it will contain the complete engine interiors, landing gear bay interiors, pop off pannels to reveal everything inside, with hundreds and hundreds of micro detailing, perferated gussetting, guiled structer, with fully undercut datail on every little peice of datail. Designed in such a way, every mastered peice of detail has to be masked for molding in a very specific way, and the molds "have to be 4-6 peice molds for each mastered peice. So the only person that will be able to take a mold of a single peice of the kit, let alone cast a peice, will have to be of the highest quality professional mold maker like my self, or they wont have a chance in hell of recasting it.


Recasting starts will molding complexity- If you find your masters easy to mold, so will the finished kit peices.

Do you agrea or disagree.

 

[Scratchy]

So when is this kit going to be on sale, and from the sounds of it, it might carry a hefty price tag:cry

 

[JoslinFX]

Ill have pictures of the msters up soon, and it will be a bit more than a use 1/24 X, obvious reason, But... not that much more at all, ill have to wait untill i see how long it takes me to cast one full kit once i have made the molds. a large percentage of detail on the masters is photo etch like the engine exhausts flaps, and interiors with hundreds of pipes tubes and wires. we are talking major uber detailing like you would expect from a high quality 1/24 air craft kit.

And the for price, I my self are hoping for, is maybe at the most, one third more than a usual 1/24 X price because of its complexity.

But this is not the thread for that, ill make a creation thread, when i got some pics together.

 

[jawsmodels]

JFX that sounds incredibly good & I bet theres a few who are very eager to see you show us what we're going to be getting.

 

[JoslinFX]

PS: When trying produce a kit with some security from recasting

1] Bare in mind, most recaster rip off agents, are indaviduals with molding skill of the most basic. [Most recast resin kit are diabolical copies]
2] Make the masters as complicated as possible, solely designed for complext molding 2-3+ section moldings with designed heath-[Unfortunately only helps if you an expert mold maker]
3] Master parts in a way, that a lazer scanner can not see into most sections of it to decifer all its important dimentions and detail.
4] No more putting a wall around a master and porring sillicon on it. - Learn how to make complex multi part molds, this helps to educate you on how to master complex patterns, that simple molds and simple molding processes are "absolutely impossible" to duplicate.
5] Learn how to take molds off of complex fully undercutting detail, by understanding waffer walling processes WWP. -[WWP, Micro thin wall [like normal decal material] placed under the full undercut, so the sillicon seperates cleanly with no tearing. these are impossible to duplicate with simple molding technices. [If a masters have loads of these, simple recasters will end up destroying there parts, destroying all the detail, through try to make molds, and theres casting will have the same results].
6] If your masters and molds are made in this manner as discribed, only industrial molding specialists can recast your kits to any sellable quality. And most rip off recast indaviduals will not be able to steal your hard erned laber. Most people who can afford an industrial molding specialists, are comercial companies that do not like to chance commercial releases of something that has no copyright unless those companies are in asia, free from certain laws....
7] Allways keep paper work on every item sold - mainly on the person you sold it too.
8] Never sell to China, Japan, Korea, or any part of Asia.

9] When someone enquires about buying a kit from you, email them a crafters contract [simple to write your own - that it states they are contracting you to "Create and Build" - weather fully built or in kit form - this particular product for them, and that they are ownly paying for a final product, not any parts of original manufacturaing like the masters] and tell them to print it off, sign it, and send it to you through the post and to be payed on notifcation of return of the contract. This absolves you over all leagel copy right issues through this contract, as it is a member of the public propogating you to create or build a specific product for them, not you progating the public to buy a specific product off the shelf. [The Coup'e Contr'e Coup of artistic design copyright, as an indavidual artist]. When doing this, you covered by every law protecting your interlectual artistics rights, over that person copying your work "in anyway whatsoever". Regardless wether a film company owns the design, you own the creation patterns rights to that specific product because of that contract, which your own masters will prove.

10] Try and have an online folio of work, to make you look like a professional model maker wether you are or not and get it linked to important model forums. This helps show your not some lowly indavidual that will have no support or back up to black list a thief or promote the theft, if someone rips of your kit

11] Never expect to sell loads of kits, this is a cottage industry, and should remain so, if this small environment, becomes seen in anyway as remotely commercial, it will be all over on leagel growns.

If anyone else thinks of anything, post it here.

Your thoughts...

 

[TheRealMcFly]

As a guy also considering offering a kit, the contract idea seems like a great precaution. Perhaps combining this with a buyback option would prevent the majority of secondary sales to unknown recasters. This seems like something that would be worthwhile to pursue and would not add much extra work to the process.

There are probably less than five people here who would bother preparing molds of recommended complexity. Not only that but a lot of kits are intentional replicas of original parts that utilized 1 and 2 part molds, nothing more. There would be no way to offer a more complex assembly, without changing your product into something completely different.

And since when have recasters worried about quality? I am intrigued by these impossible to recast parts. Can you elaborate on waffer walling?

 

[EchoLeader]

The bottom line is that anything that is created can be copied. It doesn't matter how complex the original moulds were, a recaster will lump the parts together, cut corners by making a two part mould and undercut the price of the original. Quality is not their concern, profit is.

As for a contract and a buyback program. A contract means nothing to someone who is willing to obtain an item they're willing to copy, and a buyback program just gives them an opportunity to get their initial investment back once they copy an item.

Pure profit for them anyway you cut it.

 

[TheRealMcFly]

As for a contract and a buyback program. A contract means nothing to someone who is willing to obtain an item they're willing to copy, and a buyback program just gives them an opportunity to get their initial investment back once they copy an item.

He's right!:lol Hopefully, you would only be selling to an established community with reputable members. But that's the real trick I guess... it only takes one.

 

[Treadwell]

Of course, a recaster can duplicate a complex kit by just casting a buildup, or a handful of subassemblies. I guess you've won half the battle, though, when all they can offer is a simplified version.