Need help identifying a prop

SpectrHz · Nov 21, 2016

I have a prop chess set from the 1988 movie Twins with Arnold Schwarzenegger and Danny DeVito, which was purchased from an estate seller who claimed it was an authentic screen used prop. This chess set is very ornate and appears briefly in the film starting at around 35:15 into the film, it is on the table with a picture being held in front of it. Here is an image from the scene:

According to very hasty research it appears to be a piece made by Italian artist Giuseppe Vasari, however this is just speculation. I have heard about the RPF through Adam Savage's Tested, and he says that the RPF is one of the best sites for stuff like this and that you guys really know your stuff. I have no paper trail on this item, I only have pictures, and was hoping some of the awesome people here could help me identify this piece

We are looking to possibly sell this item, but have no idea how to go about getting more info about the prop/verifying its authenticity. Any help is appreciated :3

Moviefreak · Nov 22, 2016

SpectrHz said:
I have a prop chess set from the 1988 movie Twins with Arnold Schwarzenegger and Danny DeVito, which was purchased from an estate seller who claimed it was an authentic screen used prop. This chess set is very ornate and appears briefly in the film starting at around 35:15 into the film, it is on the table with a picture being held in front of it. Here is an image from the scene:

View attachment 684965

According to very hasty research it appears to be a piece made by Italian artist Giuseppe Vasari, however this is just speculation. I have heard about the RPF through Adam Savage's Tested, and he says that the RPF is one of the best sites for stuff like this and that you guys really know your stuff. I have no paper trail on this item, I only have pictures, and was hoping some of the awesome people here could help me identify this piece

View attachment 684966 View attachment 684967 View attachment 684968 View attachment 684969 View attachment 684970 View attachment 684971 View attachment 684972 View attachment 684973

We are looking to possibly sell this item, but have no idea how to go about getting more info about the prop/verifying its authenticity. Any help is appreciated :3

First of all... welcome aboard the RPF

Adam is right, it is a great community and Adam is just as much a part of it and involved posting here as everyone else.

Now some things to consider about this chess set.
It is a very cool piece, and might have ties to the film, however, that is not easily proved. AT this point, you just have a really cool story by a man at an estate sale. And I cannot tell you how many items for sale start off with "no COA or provenance as I bought it at a garage sale... estate sale... thrift store", etc. Serious collectors will stay away from purchasing an item as "production used" when there is no paper trail leading back to the studio/production. It is just too easy these days to buy items online and flip around and claim they are from a movie and have no way of proving it. Heck, even COA are pretty worthless these days as people can easily fake them at home. So unless you can track down the owner history and get letters from the owners telling how they acquired the item and who they sold it to... and then cross check the owners to show a direct lineage from studio to you... then I am afraid all you have is a piece worth the antique value based upon condition. I know that is not what you probably want to hear, but in the collectibles market, that is usually how this goes.

Stairstars · Nov 22, 2016

It would appear to me, that the task should be proving it is truly an original Giuseppe Vasari, as that value would dwarf any TWINS film use.

SpectrHz · Nov 22, 2016

Moviefreak said:
First of all... welcome aboard the RPF
Adam is right, it is a great community and Adam is just as much a part of it and involved posting here as everyone else.

Now some things to consider about this chess set.
It is a very cool piece, and might have ties to the film, however, that is not easily proved. AT this point, you just have a really cool story by a man at an estate sale. And I cannot tell you how many items for sale start off with "no COA or provenance as I bought it at a garage sale... estate sale... thrift store", etc. Serious collectors will stay away from purchasing an item as "production used" when there is no paper trail leading back to the studio/production. It is just too easy these days to buy items online and flip around and claim they are from a movie and have no way of proving it. Heck, even COA are pretty worthless these days as people can easily fake them at home. So unless you can track down the owner history and get letters from the owners telling how they acquired the item and who they sold it to... and then cross check the owners to show a direct lineage from studio to you... then I am afraid all you have is a piece worth the antique value based upon condition. I know that is not what you probably want to hear, but in the collectibles market, that is usually how this goes.

I fully expect to be disappointed haha, however, considering it appears to be made by Vasari, and he produced these pieces regularly, it most likely just so happens to be from a similar run I would imagine. It may, possibly, but doubtfully be possible to acquire some form of paper trail on this set, but I wouldn't really be sure of it, heck, I'm not even sure if the guy is still alive...

The owner of this set purchased it for around 3,000 dollars, and I don't expect you guys to prove it is a real set, I just wanted some help getting more info about it from the prop hivemind :3 Either way, if not a prop, it is most certainly a beautiful piece and if I can verify it as a genuine Vasari set could make it even more worthwhile then as a prop

Moviefreak · Nov 22, 2016

SpectrHz said:
I fully expect to be disappointed haha, however, considering it appears to be made by Vasari, and he produced these pieces regularly, it most likely just so happens to be from a similar run I would imagine. It may, possibly, but doubtfully be possible to acquire some form of paper trail on this set, but I wouldn't really be sure of it, heck, I'm not even sure if the guy is still alive...

The owner of this set purchased it for around 3,000 dollars, and I don't expect you guys to prove it is a real set, I just wanted some help getting more info about it from the prop hivemind :3 Either way, if not a prop, it is most certainly a beautiful piece and if I can verify it as a genuine Vasari set could make it even more worthwhile then as a prop

Oh.. I am sorry, I mistook your post to mean you wanted a way to authenticate this as the prop from the film.

If you are just looking to prove it is a real Vasari Chess set, then you could most likely go to a professional appraiser. You can look these up online and see tons of photos, and I do not know if there is a market for faking these... though counterfeiters will fake anything worth money these days, lol. So there is always that chance that these do get faked. SO going to an appraiser could be your best bet. Sure they cost upfront, but in the end, if you get a certified appraisal certificate, that couple hundred dollars upfront could make your item sky rocket in value. Heck.. I just saw one on ebay that was appraised and it shows the value to be $12,000 (see photo). So I would suggest going that route.

SpectrHz · Nov 22, 2016

Moviefreak said:
Oh.. I am sorry, I mistook your post to mean you wanted a way to authenticate this as the prop from the film.

If you are just looking to prove it is a real Vasari Chess set, then you could most likely go to a professional appraiser. You can look these up online and see tons of photos, and I do not know if there is a market for faking these... though counterfeiters will fake anything worth money these days, lol. So there is always that chance that these do get faked. SO going to an appraiser could be your best bet. Sure they cost upfront, but in the end, if you get a certified appraisal certificate, that couple hundred dollars upfront could make your item sky rocket in value. Heck.. I just saw one on ebay that was appraised and it shows the value to be $12,000 (see photo). So I would suggest going that route.
View attachment 685066

Sorry if I came off that way, I just wanted you folks to see it and hear what you have to say or what info you could dig up

If I can somehow get ahold of the original seller then I will certainly provide all that info here. Also, thank you for the eBay post, I did not realize they were worth so much as art pieces, I will definitely inform the owner about that. I have never had an item like this appraised however, what type of person should I go to? Are there any specific appraisers that would be recommended? Thanks!

Moviefreak · Nov 22, 2016

SpectrHz said:
Are there any specific appraisers that would be recommended? Thanks!

That I do not know, lol. But this section of the forum has many auction houses who check out the pages. So hopefully one of them can pop in and maybe direct you to the appraisers they use. Good luck.

SpectrHz · Nov 22, 2016

Moviefreak said:
That I do not know, lol. But this section of the forum has many auction houses who check out the pages. So hopefully one of them can pop in and maybe direct you to the appraisers they use. Good luck.

Awesome, thanks

SpectrHz · Nov 23, 2016

Stairstars said:
It would appear to me, that the task should be proving it is truly an original Giuseppe Vasari, as that value would dwarf any TWINS film use.

Yea, at this point I think you guys are right

Thanks

JMSupp · Nov 23, 2016

I am personal property appraiser, and actually appraised a Vasari Chess set about two years ago! I've also appraised props and other memorabilia, so it's not just antiques and grandma's china, though I do a lot of that too! It was a "Waterloo" set, not the Columbus set, but they sell for around the same. Before we get to that, let's go to the fun part, was it used in "Twins"?

I haven't seen the movie in years, but who would say that they had the chess set that was a background prop in "Twins"? Not many, and frankly, most people have forgotten the movie, let alone recall a background prop. So at first brush, it sounds pretty good. On the other hand, what if one day, they were watching the movie, and saw a chess set that was just like the one they had? They tell their kids about it, and years later, when the time comes to sell the estate, the kids recall that dad had said something about it being in the movie "Twins"... This happens a lot, and with no intent (usually) to defraud. Like a game of telephone, suddenly it goes from being like the one in the movie, to being in the movie! The estate seller comes along, and prices it, trying to get as much as they think they can, and re-tells the story, and so on.

Now, even if you had a story that sounded good, like it came from the kid of the propmaster, or some such, that only takes you so far. Twenty or even ten years ago, that story was enough to go by for most people. Even a COA was good enough, but that is not the case now. The market is a lot more demanding now, and people want more proof. Fortunately, there are ways to match the item to what is seen on the screen, and with DVD and HD, it's getting much easier. Generally, you want to look for unique identifying marks that match the item to what is seen on screen.

With your chess set, you're actually kind of lucky, as the onyx and marble squares are all made from natural stone, and have a unique pattern and color! So all you have to do is get a good shot from the movie, and compare, which is sometimes easier said then done.

I'll come back to this in a few minutes, I'm going to look at the frame you posted and see what I can glean from it.

James

JMSupp · Nov 23, 2016

Ok, I'm going to attempt to describe my approach to screen matching your chess boards. It's really an ideal test case, as a chessboard is a known pattern of checks, and has natural tiles, so we can use the variations in individual tiles to determine if your board is the same as the one on screen! The neat thing, it really doesn't matter if we know who made the board, or anything else, we can just look at one part of the object, and narrow down the possibilities from there. It's not always this easy, to be sure!

First, I took the shot you provided of the top of the chess board, and using Photoshop, attempted to match the angle and dimensions of the board to match the ones of the screen shot. I then rotated your board to match the pattern on the screeshot. Now, a chessboard has a known pattern of 8x8 alternately colored squares. As you rotate the board 90 degrees at a time, the square in the lower left corner alternates between the two colors. In this case, it's either green or white. So to match the pattern of your board to the screen shot, it can only be viewed from two sides, rather then four. So we just knocked out 50% of the the tiles we need to look at. I aligned the boards at the bottom, which the screenshot fortunately shows, along with the left edge, so we know exactly where we have to line the board up.

As seen below, the white tiles don't show any variations, so we can't use those to match, but the blue/green ones have some nice reddish brown streaks that show up nicely even in blurry pictures, which is quite fortunate! I chose four of the most visible tiles on the screenshot, and labeled them ABCD. The letters are just to left of the tile they are marking.

(Click on the pic to make it larger!)

At a glance, the screenshot A tile has a brown upper corner, while the upper A has a bit of brown, but not in the right place, and the lower A has no brown at all! Upper B has a lot more blue then Screenshot B. It's hard to tell if Upper and Lower C match Screenshot C, as there is not a whole lot of color variation on either. Upper D's color grain is different the Screenshot, as is Lower D.

All in all, I don't think that your chessboard is a match to the screen used one, based on a hasty photo analysis. If we had a cleaner screenshot, I could be more certain, but at the moment, I think it's the same type of chessboard that was used in "Twins", sorry to say.

It does have some value, to be sure, it just comes from it being a nice chess set, and not a piece of movie history! How much value... well, let me do some research, and I'll let you know what I think.

James

SpectrHz · Nov 25, 2016

JMSupp said:
Ok, I'm going to attempt to describe my approach to screen matching your chess boards. It's really an ideal test case, as a chessboard is a known pattern of checks, and has natural tiles, so we can use the variations in individual tiles to determine if your board is the same as the one on screen! The neat thing, it really doesn't matter if we know who made the board, or anything else, we can just look at one part of the object, and narrow down the possibilities from there. It's not always this easy, to be sure!

First, I took the shot you provided of the top of the chess board, and using Photoshop, attempted to match the angle and dimensions of the board to match the ones of the screen shot. I then rotated your board to match the pattern on the screeshot. Now, a chessboard has a known pattern of 8x8 alternately colored squares. As you rotate the board 90 degrees at a time, the square in the lower left corner alternates between the two colors. In this case, it's either green or white. So to match the pattern of your board to the screen shot, it can only be viewed from two sides, rather then four. So we just knocked out 50% of the the tiles we need to look at. I aligned the boards at the bottom, which the screenshot fortunately shows, along with the left edge, so we know exactly where we have to line the board up.

As seen below, the white tiles don't show any variations, so we can't use those to match, but the blue/green ones have some nice reddish brown streaks that show up nicely even in blurry pictures, which is quite fortunate! I chose four of the most visible tiles on the screenshot, and labeled them ABCD. The letters are just to left of the tile they are marking.

(Click on the pic to make it larger!)

View attachment 685523

At a glance, the screenshot A tile has a brown upper corner, while the upper A has a bit of brown, but not in the right place, and the lower A has no brown at all! Upper B has a lot more blue then Screenshot B. It's hard to tell if Upper and Lower C match Screenshot C, as there is not a whole lot of color variation on either. Upper D's color grain is different the Screenshot, as is Lower D.

All in all, I don't think that your chessboard is a match to the screen used one, based on a hasty photo analysis. If we had a cleaner screenshot, I could be more certain, but at the moment, I think it's the same type of chessboard that was used in "Twins", sorry to say.

It does have some value, to be sure, it just comes from it being a nice chess set, and not a piece of movie history! How much value... well, let me do some research, and I'll let you know what I think.

James

Wow! Thanks so much for the detailed answer! This is really cool. At this point, like you and others have said, it's probably not the one from the movie, nor does that matter that much to me or the owner, since the real value is it being a Vasari piece. I'm very interested to hear more about it, and thanks again for looking at it

JMSupp · Nov 26, 2016

No problem! This is what I enjoy doing, and I'm fortunate enough to do it for a living!

Okay, now for the elephant in the room. What's it worth? Condition affects value, and yours looks to be in good shape, with no missing pieces or corrosion. All the Vasari sets were limited editions, before such things were the norm. The Columbus sets came out in the 70s, and were very high end at the time. At auction, similar sets have sold for as low as a few hundred dollars, to about $3,000, though most tend to sell for around $800-1000. Chrsitie's sold one in 2006 for $240, and Bonhams sold on in 2009 for $1,600. This, though, is not what I would insure it for, it just shows you how much they sell for to collectors and dealers, and not in a retail setting. Retail has a markup, mostly to cover the costs of being in business and making a profit. There are several for sale out there right now, from around $2,000-7,000 from retail vendors.

So, $3,000 for it isn't a bad retail price, and you can take your receipt and insure it for that amount. Insurance value or replacement value is the usually the highest monetary valuation. Not knowing the details of the appraisal of the E-Bay, I can't really comment too much, except that I just don't see $12,000 in insurance value. It could have bought for that much, and that would have meant the replacement cost was $12k, but I don't know.

Would an appraisal help the value? For insurance replacement, I'd say you paid about what it is worth, perhaps a bit less. Check with your insurer if you want to insure it for more.

If you wanted to sell it, would an appraisal help? Maybe, depending on the buyer. It can give piece of mind that for someone who wants to insure it's a real Vasari, but I suspect that someone who wants to buy a Vasari knows what to look for. If this were actually from the movie, and appraisal would absolutely help the value, as a good one would include details on the method used to determine authenticity, like I described above, and that would make a difference to a buyer.

If it your chess set was screen matched positively, or had rock solid provenance, I'd probably appraise it for insurance at... $4,000-5,000 or so. It's a background prop, and as far as I recall, not an important one. It's not an iconic piece from an important movie. I don't even know if the actors touched it! If the one from the movie came up at auction, I'd expect to see an auction estimate of $1,000-1,500.

I hope this answers your question, and if you have any more, let me know!

James

SpectrHz · Nov 28, 2016

JMSupp said:
No problem! This is what I enjoy doing, and I'm fortunate enough to do it for a living!

Okay, now for the elephant in the room. What's it worth? Condition affects value, and yours looks to be in good shape, with no missing pieces or corrosion. All the Vasari sets were limited editions, before such things were the norm. The Columbus sets came out in the 70s, and were very high end at the time. At auction, similar sets have sold for as low as a few hundred dollars, to about $3,000, though most tend to sell for around $800-1000. Chrsitie's sold one in 2006 for $240, and Bonhams sold on in 2009 for $1,600. This, though, is not what I would insure it for, it just shows you how much they sell for to collectors and dealers, and not in a retail setting. Retail has a markup, mostly to cover the costs of being in business and making a profit. There are several for sale out there right now, from around $2,000-7,000 from retail vendors.

So, $3,000 for it isn't a bad retail price, and you can take your receipt and insure it for that amount. Insurance value or replacement value is the usually the highest monetary valuation. Not knowing the details of the appraisal of the E-Bay, I can't really comment too much, except that I just don't see $12,000 in insurance value. It could have bought for that much, and that would have meant the replacement cost was $12k, but I don't know.

Would an appraisal help the value? For insurance replacement, I'd say you paid about what it is worth, perhaps a bit less. Check with your insurer if you want to insure it for more.

If you wanted to sell it, would an appraisal help? Maybe, depending on the buyer. It can give piece of mind that for someone who wants to insure it's a real Vasari, but I suspect that someone who wants to buy a Vasari knows what to look for. If this were actually from the movie, and appraisal would absolutely help the value, as a good one would include details on the method used to determine authenticity, like I described above, and that would make a difference to a buyer.

If it your chess set was screen matched positively, or had rock solid provenance, I'd probably appraise it for insurance at... $4,000-5,000 or so. It's a background prop, and as far as I recall, not an important one. It's not an iconic piece from an important movie. I don't even know if the actors touched it! If the one from the movie came up at auction, I'd expect to see an auction estimate of $1,000-1,500.

I hope this answers your question, and if you have any more, let me know!

James

I talked to the owner of the set, and after showing them what you had to say they decided they wanted to hold onto it but that they were very happy that you identified all this information about it. Thanks for being awesome and helping me get this information

Need help identifying a prop

SpectrHz

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Stairstars

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