walking dead.. was shane really the victim?

[Frosteon]

I felt this deserved it's own topic, because it's not entirely related to the walking dead show as a whole, yet if the mods feel this should be included in the already established walking dead thread, then I understand.

I am completely caught up on the show now. Shane was one of my favorites, so this leads me to wonder. Was he really the bad guy? First and foremost, his altercation with Otis is questionable. I do not condone murder, yet it's my firm belief he left Otis to die in order to save Carl, even considering Shane at first told Otis just to leave him and save himself, and it clearly haunted Shane in later episodes. so it's hard to come to a solid conclusion about that scenario. Killing Randall was wrong, plain and simple, and Dale was the only voice of reason there. If put in that position, I can say no, I wouldn't kill the kid, even knowing he could bring a group back. However, going before all this even, Lori painted Shane out to be lying to her about Rick dying, even though it's very clear (not to mention stated on his wiki page) that he truly thought Rick died, therefore his next intention was to get Lori and Carl to safety. When Rick returns, Shane is all of a sudden the bad guy and a liar, not to mention shortly before Shane's death, she admits to him herself that she had a hand in turning him and Rick against each other. Treating Shane like crap, instead of giving proper closure to their relationship with Rick returned. Jon Bernthal also stated that deep down, Shane didn't want to live anymore. He was a little nuts in the head at that point, from Lori's treatment, among other factors. He hesitated in killing Rick, even giving Rick the chance to kill him first. Bernthal states that deep down, he felt Rick needed to step up his game and be a better leader, and Shane felt somehow that his death would accomplish that. A couple producers say that Shane's story is more tragic, than anything.

thoughts?

 

[Kerr Avon]

We were all a victim of Lori.

 

[IndyBlues]

He enjoyed his best friends wife a little too much, especially without proof that Rick was really dead. I can totally sympathize with them thinking he was dead, but maybe give it more than a few weeks to start banging your buddies widow.

Also, plotting to kill Rick early on, only to be caught in the act by Dale. Yeah, Shane was a scumbag. The zombie apocalypse may have brought it to the surface, but it was probably always there.

Mike

 

[rodneyfaile]

I can totally sympathize with them thinking he was dead, but maybe give it more than a few weeks to start banging your buddies widow.

I got the impression that was going on even before the zombie apocalypse.

 

[Kerr Avon]

He enjoyed his best friends wife a little too much, especially without proof that Rick was really dead. I can totally sympathize with them thinking he was dead, but maybe give it more than a few weeks to start banging your buddies widow.

Uhhhh.. the guy was on life support. The life support died. The guy put his head to Rick's chest and tried checking for vital signs. The place was being overrun by walkers and National Guardsmen killing civilians.

Any REASONABLE person would assume he's dead at that point. I don't fault him for that at ALL.

This was ALL Lori's fault for the way she kept playing him and Rick off each other. I'm glad the ***** died horribly, she had it coming.

 

[Frosteon]

Yeah, Shane really thought Rick was dead. Plus he came to his senses again during that incident where Dale watched. Not only that, yet if it weren't for Carl getting shot, Shane actually wanted to leave the group.

And yeah, I'm not a Lori fan. I was more saddened over Tdog than her. (I think he should have lived too. Carol serves no purpose. her and Daryl may supposedly get together, yet she's too old for him. Tdog was another favorite of mine) I mean come on... What person in their right mind would have a child during a zombie apocalypse?! Answer that, please. I can see maybe some Woodbury survivors doing that, as They have the protection and facility, so I could see some of them trying to start again. Yet not Lori. She had a chance to take abortion pills, and then throws them back up. Where's the logic in that? There's already a risk Carl could die in that kind of world, and then she wants to bring a baby into that as well? What if They got overwhelmed by zombies? The child would suffer. She was an idiot, plain and simple.

 

[IndyBlues]

Uhhhh.. the guy was on life support. The life support died. The guy put his head to Rick's chest and tried checking for vital signs. The place was being overrun by walkers and National Guardsmen killing civilians.

Any REASONABLE person would assume he's dead at that point. I don't fault him for that at ALL.

This was ALL Lori's fault for the way she kept playing him and Rick off each other. I'm glad the ***** died horribly, she had it coming.

Uhhhh,...ok, he thinks his best friend is dead. Still ok to start balling his wife right away? He's an honorable guy.
I totally agree with you about Lori. She was a fire starter from the get. Wasn't like he forced himself on her. They were both class acts.
Mike

 

[Kerr Avon]

Uhhhh,...ok, he thinks his best friend is dead. Still ok to start balling his wife right away? He's an honorable guy.
I totally agree with you about Lori. She was a fire starter from the get. Wasn't like he forced himself on her. They were both class acts.
Mike

Yeah, takes two to tango, and she was clearly okay with it. Really though, apocalypse, disasters like that, there's an instinctual response to screw.

 

[Birdie]

He was the best character, and his survival instincts were the best of the group.

He was the bad guy though. The Otis thing is debatable, and banging Lori could be considered a lapse in both morality and taste, but trying to rape her at the CDC and trying to kill Rick meant he had to go.

 

[OldKen]

Totally.

And Jon Bernthal is such a cool person in real life. Was really a pleasure to get to talk with the guy. Soo it's hard for me to see the character as that bad... LOL!

I seriously do agree that it was Lori's fault. I think Shane loved Rick. I really think his character did. I don't think he was sitting back waiting for his chance. Things just ended up that way...

This was ALL Lori's fault for the way she kept playing him and Rick off each other. I'm glad the ***** died horribly, she had it coming.

 

[darthgordon]

Well... human beings aren't so black and white... good and evil... Shane wasn't perfect; nor was he the mustache twirling villain of old.

Shane and Rick were best friends... had been since they were kids. They even worked together as partners. Shane would have met Lori while she and Rick were dating. Shane had something of a reputation as a ladies man, but it was Rick that found love. I'm sure that despite the bond he had with his best friend, there might have been a little jealousy there. He saw early on what they had; I'm sure he also saw Lori, not just as Rick's girlfriend/ wife, but as a woman too.

Now, how many of us can say we've never had such feelings. We would never act on them, of course. But how many haven't felt that little bit of jealousy when you're single and you're hanging out with your friends, the happy couple? I'm guessing, not many (if you're honest with yourself).

So Rick and Lori get married and have a son. Shane, as Rick's best friend and partner would have become very close to the family. Close enough that he does in fact love them. Then one day, Rick is shot and put in a coma. He offers to lend whatever support he can. He visits Rick in the hospital, hoping he'll come out of it, but there's no guarantee that he ever will.

That's when it happens- the world has just gone crazy out of nowhere. Civilization is breaking down. At the behest of Lori, he goes to the hospital to try and save Rick. He braves the insanity to go in and everything around him is in chaos. People are dying, there's an explosion and the power goes out. The life support goes out. He can't figure out whether Rick is alive or dead. But he's pretty sure if he stays much longer, he'll be dead himself. So what's he going to do? Lug Rick's possibly lifeless or comatose for life body with him so they can both die? Then where would Carl and Lori be? So he runs- and in a last act of desperation (denial is the first stage of grief) pushes (I can't remember what) in front of the door and leaves.

So he goes back and gets Lori and Carl. He spends the next few weeks (or however long it was) keeping them safe, and comforting Lori when she's scared or sad.

Now, let's say any of us spend a long period of close time with someone we're attracted to. You've already known this person, and may have even thought of them in a romantic way but dismissed it. You've become this person's protector. That's bound to stir up some feelings that may be difficult to control. As far as you know, your best friend is dead. So you give in one day. Once you've given in and allowed yourself to create that bond of love, it can be a bond that you do not want to break. Love can be a glorious feeling. It can make you think you can conquer anything. But when circumstances take love from you it can be devastating. One day you're on top of the world and the next you're beneath it, being crushed. It feels like someone has reached in and ripped a part of your soul out, and you'd give anything to have that piece put back in.

Picture this in a world where everything else has already been taken from you. Shane has no more football games to watch, no more bars to go to, no more women to sleep with and all the shopping malls are closed.

Shane had already accepted Rick's death and moved on. But out of nowhere, he shows up. He knows he should be happy that his friend is alive, but he also knows what that means.

Lori grows cold. In a matter of minutes she's gone from loving him to "stay away from my son and I." He's just spent all this time, risking his life to keep them safe; working to protect them. Rick didn't do that, he did! And as repayment, Rick just strolls up and Lori rips his heart out. He knows she's Rick's wife, and he knows Rick would have been there if he could... but sometimes human feelings aren't logical and we can't help having them.

So he keeps trying to push these feelings away... tries to feel like he knows he should. But deep down he's angry. And deep down, he wants that feeling he had before Rick showed up.

So the night at the CDC, he gets drunk. That happens a lot when you're trying to cope with depression and anger. People try to quiet those thoughts that are hurting them. What actually ends up happening, is that those mental blocks you've put up to control those thoughts and feelings tend to fall and everything comes out. His pain comes to the surface and he makes a last desperate plea to Lori and is rejected. That's when he forces himself on her. "She feels something for me; she's just fighting it because she feels she has to be with Rick. I'm going to do whatever I have to, to get her back! She's gonna give in! Nobody's gonna stop ME!" That's when she fights back and scratches him. With that, he comes to his senses, and realizes that it's not going to happen. That just makes him angry and he walks away.

I think this is Shane's turning point. He feels like he's been used and fooled. He's decided he's been too nice... he hasn't put himself on the top of his list of priorities. He's been taken advantage of for the last time. The world is no longer what it was, and it's about survival of the fittest. Rick came in, stole his leadership and took everything he had from him- everything he lived for! Well, now he was gonna live for HIM!

 

[tain669]

Shane was a man like everyone else..He did not love wisely.. He loved intensely....And in a world where morals can be put by the way side. A good man as Shane was can be as much a victim as he wants to be. Now remember what I said. As much as he wants to be. I think he was a good man but when Rick came back. It turned him. Envy will do that. Shane was never good with girl when the world was normal. Laurie was there and they grew close. They thought Rick was dead. But he came back.And like i said. Morals in the world of the walking Dead can be left at the road side. And that what Shane did. Hi did not have to. But he did. it was his chose And i wish to God he had not choose that path. He was a good man.

 

[Frosteon]

Shane eventually decides to leave the group after he came to his senses following his incident where he got drunk and confronted Lori. Lori, who chewed him out and doesn't like him anymore... asks him to stay and criticizes him. yeah.. Shane does indeed stay when Carl is shot. I explained about Otis and Shane's scenario. She again asks Shane to stay when he walks in the room and checks up on Carl. and Lori deciding to have a kid at a very inconvenient time.. She again criticizes him and says even if the kid is his, he will not play a part in the kid's life. Now, I'd have to watch the episodes again to note all the disagreements Shane and Rick had, yet one in particular was that Rick was going to get someone else killed eventually, in their search for Sophia. I can kind of see both guys' viewpoints here so maybe They could have worked out some kind of deal and compromise. Rick was also trying to negotiate with Hershell in that if Hershell agreed to let them stay at the farm, They'd agree to help him maintain the zombies in the barn. Again, I can see both Rick and Shane's viewpoint. Personally, I wouldn't see the point of keeping Zombies around, so I can understand Shane just going crazy and shooting them, yet Shane should have still agreed to Hershell's terms. At least They wouldn't lose more valuble time looking for Sophia, and not only that, yet Otis should have pulled Rick and Shane to the side and explained to them that he found Sophia zombified. It would only make sense if you found a zombified girl recently, and then a couple new people show up a few days later, and you just happened to shoot the kid in the group. At least show them and ask if she's part of their group. Anyway, I don't know all Shane and Rick's issues, yet Shane could have come to cope with the fact Rick is back, and still maintained their friendship, if Lori had just given proper closure to their relationship, just explaining she wants to go back to Rick and at least thanking him for what he did for her and her son, instead of treating him like dirt, saying he won't be part of his potential child's life. Shane and Rick might have worked out their issues after the episode 18 miles out, yet THEN going back with him again and messing with his head the day he decided to turn against Rick. Lori should have ended it amicably, gone with the abortion, and try to loosen the tension between Rick and Shane.

 

[rodneyfaile]

Maybe I need to watch that first episode again, its been a long time, but I seem to remember Rick being suspicious of Lori cheating on him before the zombie apocalypse. I thought he was talking to Shane about it and the way Shane was acting made me thing it was him.

 

[Frosteon]

Edit. somehow, I accidentally made this a double post when I clicked on an RPF add when I didn't mean to. just ignore this.

 

[PeteVenkman]

In the comics Shane was written as a villan. There were no redeeming qualities, he was a self serving A-hole through and through. For the show the writers felt he needed to be more likeable so they made his character a little more complex. But make no mistake, he was no victim. He knew what he was doing and was jealous of Rick and wanted what was not his. He was self serving, opportunistic and (after Rick came back) a butt-hurt sulk. That made him a dangerous threat to Rick and the group.

 

[Feraud]

This was ALL Lori's fault for the way she kept playing him and Rick off each other. I'm glad the ***** died horribly, she had it coming.

Exactly! :thumbsup

 

[CB2001]

Was Shane really the victim? No.

Was he an insane person who would have gotten every killed a lot quicker on a long enough timeframe? Yes.

 

[mutant59]

Shane was a victim... of the zombie apocalypse. Without the total breakdown of civilization he'd have remained a basically decent guy with the occasional nasty thought or bad impulse he wouldn't have acted upon.

 

[Highrise]

A very complex character. i still think he was screwing Lori before it all kicked off though. Scene one in Episode one of the first series is Shane and Rick i the car talking about how Lori and Rick are having a bad time. Some of the looks Shane gives Carl seem to have heavy thoughts behind them, like he is thinking something he doesn't want to say. After Rick gets show, Shane is genuine in his concern for his friend and when Rick is in hospital and Shane delivers the flowers, his voice is cracked with emotion and I think that is obviously directed towards Rick. Hell, he even pushes the bed up against the door so Rick stays safe fro the walkers.

I don't think Shane is totally the bad guy although he does kinds lose it toward the end. I think Lori is an evil manipulative bitch towards him and paints him solely as the bad guy to make her feel better when Rick arrives back on the scene and to try to legitimatise her actions to herself.