I KNEW IT!! Lucas admits to LOST producers "had no idea where Star Wars was going.."
- Thread starter DS Operative
- Start date
nickytea
Master Member
Re: I KNEW IT!! Lucas admits to LOST producers "had no idea where Star Wars was going
If only it were so simply dualistic as the "planned out" and "not planned out" that people seem to enjoy labeling works.
Obviously Lucas did not have the entirety of Star Wars planned out when he made the first movie. There are big aspects he hadn't yet created about even Empire at that point.
The recently leaked 1978 Leigh Brackett draft of "Star Wars Sequel" gives a great deal of insight to Georges creative process. There are some abandoned plot points that bare a great similarity to those that appear in the prequels.
He seems to have an evolving pool of concepts that he has an affinity for, that he tries to build into as dramatic a structure as is possible with each movie. Each is a new endeavor, building on the last, and until they are shot, they are malleable and subject only to the general thrust he has in mind.
There's nothing wrong with this process. It's far less gung-ho than the method of writer's like Stephen King, who abhor outlining and prefer stream-of-consciousness spewing followed by severe rewrites that pretty much equate to outlining after-the-fact. At the end of the day, it's the product that will be judged aside from authorial intent or writer's method. As it should be.
I also think a lot more is read into the claims of creators. In the LOST example, I can't personally recall ever being promised a grand scheme, but felt safe in the hands of the show's writers regardless.
I think it's more the viewer's perception of the show's content or concept that leads them to the attitude that, without a "grand scheme", the show is worthless. For me, it makes no difference when the quality is upheld. Quite frankly, a story of this kind couldn't be told without some concept of the general thrust of things, leaving a good measure of writing to be done "in the moment". (Episode by episode.) It's never one thing or the other.
If only it were so simply dualistic as the "planned out" and "not planned out" that people seem to enjoy labeling works.
Obviously Lucas did not have the entirety of Star Wars planned out when he made the first movie. There are big aspects he hadn't yet created about even Empire at that point.
The recently leaked 1978 Leigh Brackett draft of "Star Wars Sequel" gives a great deal of insight to Georges creative process. There are some abandoned plot points that bare a great similarity to those that appear in the prequels.
He seems to have an evolving pool of concepts that he has an affinity for, that he tries to build into as dramatic a structure as is possible with each movie. Each is a new endeavor, building on the last, and until they are shot, they are malleable and subject only to the general thrust he has in mind.
There's nothing wrong with this process. It's far less gung-ho than the method of writer's like Stephen King, who abhor outlining and prefer stream-of-consciousness spewing followed by severe rewrites that pretty much equate to outlining after-the-fact. At the end of the day, it's the product that will be judged aside from authorial intent or writer's method. As it should be.
I also think a lot more is read into the claims of creators. In the LOST example, I can't personally recall ever being promised a grand scheme, but felt safe in the hands of the show's writers regardless.
I think it's more the viewer's perception of the show's content or concept that leads them to the attitude that, without a "grand scheme", the show is worthless. For me, it makes no difference when the quality is upheld. Quite frankly, a story of this kind couldn't be told without some concept of the general thrust of things, leaving a good measure of writing to be done "in the moment". (Episode by episode.) It's never one thing or the other.
Rotwang
Sr Member
Re: I KNEW IT!! Lucas admits to LOST producers "had no idea where Star Wars was going
I think there is more than enough evidence out there to conclude that Lucas had a ton of ideas and maybe even a rough outline of where he wanted to go, but changed his mind more than a few times along the way and tried to make plot points after the fact. Lucas is a talented guy, just not a great script writer.
His approach to the films has been chaotic and had me baffled a few times and I think that happened because Lucas sees the films very differently because he knows the whole picture and doesn't always build on the actual stuff on screen, but the stuff in his mind. That's why he seems so arrogant about it, he doesn't understand we only have the films to go on, he has too much information and probably glosses over a lot of stuff we consider important.
I think there is more than enough evidence out there to conclude that Lucas had a ton of ideas and maybe even a rough outline of where he wanted to go, but changed his mind more than a few times along the way and tried to make plot points after the fact. Lucas is a talented guy, just not a great script writer.
His approach to the films has been chaotic and had me baffled a few times and I think that happened because Lucas sees the films very differently because he knows the whole picture and doesn't always build on the actual stuff on screen, but the stuff in his mind. That's why he seems so arrogant about it, he doesn't understand we only have the films to go on, he has too much information and probably glosses over a lot of stuff we consider important.
Solo4114
Master Member
Re: I KNEW IT!! Lucas admits to LOST producers "had no idea where Star Wars was going
I agree he probably does have a general outline, and certain concepts floating around in his head, and as he develops the story, he cherry-picks from them and revises as he goes and fleshes stuff out. (which I already pretty much said above)
I think, however, that as far as statements by the creators, Lucas has absolutely (after the fact) come out and said "I planned it all along." Which, as I said, is true..."from a certain point of view." He had the ideas there, sort of, in one form or another. So, yeah, he planned the whole thing. And at the same time, there are big gaps, jumps, "too coincidental" coincidences, etc. That may tie back to his "Yeah, but in my HEAD, I imagined that blah blah blah" aspect, rather than what makes it up onto the screen. Although that still doesn't explain away the definite shifts in the story that do NOT match up to prior installments (Luke/Leia as brother and sister instead of potential lovers, for example). The problem comes in when he takes those moments too and tries to play them off as "planned." Maybe if you define "planned" as "Well, I sort of toyed with the idea before ANH, then dropped it during filming, and then only sort of thought about it with that whole 'No, there is another' scene in Empire, and then finally brought it back completely in ROTJ." I suppose I take a more rigid view of the word "planned," though, and would call what I just described as "thought about, but didn't fully implement until ROTJ."
As far as creators statements being overread, perhaps "statement" isn't the right word. I do think that creators get themselves in hot water when they mismanage audience expectations. If you set up a big mystery at the start of your show, or even just introduce a ton of mysteries and create a sense of some overarching "This is going somewhere big" theme, pay it off. Speaking of Stephen King, he's probably one of the WORST at doing this. The endings of IT and The Stand are epic "not with a bang, but with a whimper" endings, after HUGE buildup. It doesn't surprise me to learn that he pretty much just starts writing, then goes back and tightens things up.
I haven't watched LOST, so I can't say whether the show actually "sold itself" as being about all the mysteries. But boy it sure seems like that from what I hear from everyone who DOES watch it. The thing that keeps people watching -- at least from everyone I know -- is trying to solve the mysteries and get the answers. If you set your show up like that and then don't pay it off and give satisfactory answers, to me, that's bad storytelling. Certainly it's horrid management of audience expectations.
In all honesty, I think the creators of LOST may have a vague idea of what's up, but they're probably making a lot of it up as they go. I don't think you can take a long-form show like LOST -- especially when done over multiple seasons -- and know EXACTLY where EVERYTHING is going. I suppose it's possible to do that, but I think that's the exception in TV writing, rather than the rule. I know Dan Knauff (Carnivale) had specific plans for where his show would go in subsequent seasons. I know Joss Whedon planned out specific THINGS that'd appear in subsequent seasons (IE: the appearance of Dawn being foreshadowed in Season 3 of BtVS) although I'm not sure if that translates into entire season arcs, and of course there's the Babylon 5 example I've already given. But I think most of the time, show writers aren't planning the entire multi-season run of the show, and often don't even know what'll happen next season, let alone multiple seasons down the road. So too with LOST, I suspect.
I actually think that the best approach to television storytelling is what I saw on The Wire. Each season of the Wire is treated as a novel. It stands alone, a story unto itself. But each season also builds on the events of previous seasons, and develops the characters in keeping with what you already saw. But if the show was canceled, or an actor left at the end of a season, it wouldn't matter. You could effectively handle all of that because each individual season stood alone AND built on the previous season. What's more, WITHIN each season, the story built cleanly, and reached a satisfying conclusion -- even when that conclusion was "We don't always catch the badguy."
I'm actually VERY wary about Television shows that are billed as "Solve the big mystery!" shows unless they're limited-run miniseries type events (like Harper's Island -- although I still haven't seen that). I just don't think that shows that are "big mystery" shows end up able to pay it out effectively. I don't think most TV writers have the grand scheme actually planned, except in VERY vague terms which may change as you go along. Like, if you'd asked Ron Moore "Ok, so what was the Cylons' plan?" He'd probably have straight-up told you "Uh..to kill humanity? I thought it was obvious?" If you'd asked him to explain the whole "God did it" bit, he'd probably have known that too, but it was still sold as a grand mystery. Especially "The Plan." If you'd asked him who are the other Cylon models after the end of the miniseries, I doubt he'd have had an answer. Not for the Final Five (he's admitted as much), but not even for the other few models like the Doctor and the Preacher. But the show -- whether by him or forced by the network -- built itself up partially as a "mystery," and ended up with what I found to be pretty unsatisfactory answers. The characters were interesting. The mystery was not. I suspect the same will prove to be true with LOST.
I agree he probably does have a general outline, and certain concepts floating around in his head, and as he develops the story, he cherry-picks from them and revises as he goes and fleshes stuff out. (which I already pretty much said above)
I think, however, that as far as statements by the creators, Lucas has absolutely (after the fact) come out and said "I planned it all along." Which, as I said, is true..."from a certain point of view." He had the ideas there, sort of, in one form or another. So, yeah, he planned the whole thing. And at the same time, there are big gaps, jumps, "too coincidental" coincidences, etc. That may tie back to his "Yeah, but in my HEAD, I imagined that blah blah blah" aspect, rather than what makes it up onto the screen. Although that still doesn't explain away the definite shifts in the story that do NOT match up to prior installments (Luke/Leia as brother and sister instead of potential lovers, for example). The problem comes in when he takes those moments too and tries to play them off as "planned." Maybe if you define "planned" as "Well, I sort of toyed with the idea before ANH, then dropped it during filming, and then only sort of thought about it with that whole 'No, there is another' scene in Empire, and then finally brought it back completely in ROTJ." I suppose I take a more rigid view of the word "planned," though, and would call what I just described as "thought about, but didn't fully implement until ROTJ."
As far as creators statements being overread, perhaps "statement" isn't the right word. I do think that creators get themselves in hot water when they mismanage audience expectations. If you set up a big mystery at the start of your show, or even just introduce a ton of mysteries and create a sense of some overarching "This is going somewhere big" theme, pay it off. Speaking of Stephen King, he's probably one of the WORST at doing this. The endings of IT and The Stand are epic "not with a bang, but with a whimper" endings, after HUGE buildup. It doesn't surprise me to learn that he pretty much just starts writing, then goes back and tightens things up.
I haven't watched LOST, so I can't say whether the show actually "sold itself" as being about all the mysteries. But boy it sure seems like that from what I hear from everyone who DOES watch it. The thing that keeps people watching -- at least from everyone I know -- is trying to solve the mysteries and get the answers. If you set your show up like that and then don't pay it off and give satisfactory answers, to me, that's bad storytelling. Certainly it's horrid management of audience expectations.
In all honesty, I think the creators of LOST may have a vague idea of what's up, but they're probably making a lot of it up as they go. I don't think you can take a long-form show like LOST -- especially when done over multiple seasons -- and know EXACTLY where EVERYTHING is going. I suppose it's possible to do that, but I think that's the exception in TV writing, rather than the rule. I know Dan Knauff (Carnivale) had specific plans for where his show would go in subsequent seasons. I know Joss Whedon planned out specific THINGS that'd appear in subsequent seasons (IE: the appearance of Dawn being foreshadowed in Season 3 of BtVS) although I'm not sure if that translates into entire season arcs, and of course there's the Babylon 5 example I've already given. But I think most of the time, show writers aren't planning the entire multi-season run of the show, and often don't even know what'll happen next season, let alone multiple seasons down the road. So too with LOST, I suspect.
I actually think that the best approach to television storytelling is what I saw on The Wire. Each season of the Wire is treated as a novel. It stands alone, a story unto itself. But each season also builds on the events of previous seasons, and develops the characters in keeping with what you already saw. But if the show was canceled, or an actor left at the end of a season, it wouldn't matter. You could effectively handle all of that because each individual season stood alone AND built on the previous season. What's more, WITHIN each season, the story built cleanly, and reached a satisfying conclusion -- even when that conclusion was "We don't always catch the badguy."
I'm actually VERY wary about Television shows that are billed as "Solve the big mystery!" shows unless they're limited-run miniseries type events (like Harper's Island -- although I still haven't seen that). I just don't think that shows that are "big mystery" shows end up able to pay it out effectively. I don't think most TV writers have the grand scheme actually planned, except in VERY vague terms which may change as you go along. Like, if you'd asked Ron Moore "Ok, so what was the Cylons' plan?" He'd probably have straight-up told you "Uh..to kill humanity? I thought it was obvious?" If you'd asked him to explain the whole "God did it" bit, he'd probably have known that too, but it was still sold as a grand mystery. Especially "The Plan." If you'd asked him who are the other Cylon models after the end of the miniseries, I doubt he'd have had an answer. Not for the Final Five (he's admitted as much), but not even for the other few models like the Doctor and the Preacher. But the show -- whether by him or forced by the network -- built itself up partially as a "mystery," and ended up with what I found to be pretty unsatisfactory answers. The characters were interesting. The mystery was not. I suspect the same will prove to be true with LOST.
Re: I KNEW IT!! Lucas admits to LOST producers "had no idea where Star Wars was going
Actually the trick is to, once you've written yourself into a corner... .to write yourself OUT of it.
Actually the trick is to, once you've written yourself into a corner... .to write yourself OUT of it.
Solo4114
Master Member
Re: I KNEW IT!! Lucas admits to LOST producers "had no idea where Star Wars was going
Yeah, you can always reboot your continuity or retcon what came before. Throw in any time travel situation and bing-bang-boom, problem solved. Or just say "God did it, but it's the characters, stupid."
Yeah, you can always reboot your continuity or retcon what came before. Throw in any time travel situation and bing-bang-boom, problem solved. Or just say "God did it, but it's the characters, stupid."
Re: I KNEW IT!! Lucas admits to LOST producers "had no idea where Star Wars was going
Tolkien didn't know who Strider was when he first put him at that table in the corner of the Prancing Pony. Raymond Chandler never did decide who drove the car into the ocean in The Big Sleep.
Making it up as you go is okay. It's just the lying about it later...
Tolkien didn't know who Strider was when he first put him at that table in the corner of the Prancing Pony. Raymond Chandler never did decide who drove the car into the ocean in The Big Sleep.
Making it up as you go is okay. It's just the lying about it later...
thewiseone91
New Member
Re: I KNEW IT!! Lucas admits to LOST producers "had no idea where Star Wars was going
Obviously
Obviously
Colin Droidmilk
Sr Member
Re: I KNEW IT!! Lucas admits to LOST producers "had no idea where Star Wars was going
True also of a lot of 19th century novels, including Crime and Punishment by Dostoyevsky and tons of Dickens. Often they were writing in installments, like Lucas. Scholars have detected the course changes in these novels, minor characters suddenly becoming major in the last 3rd of the novel etc. Even Raskolnikov's motive for the murder in Crime and Punishment seems to have changed in emphasis by the end of the novel, and this is reckoned by some to be the greatest novel of all time.
True also of a lot of 19th century novels, including Crime and Punishment by Dostoyevsky and tons of Dickens. Often they were writing in installments, like Lucas. Scholars have detected the course changes in these novels, minor characters suddenly becoming major in the last 3rd of the novel etc. Even Raskolnikov's motive for the murder in Crime and Punishment seems to have changed in emphasis by the end of the novel, and this is reckoned by some to be the greatest novel of all time.
ShadowX81
Sr Member
Re: I KNEW IT!! Lucas admits to LOST producers "had no idea where Star Wars was going
I thought this was pretty common knowledge. Anyone who has even glanced at the "Making of" books can see ideas and stories that are radically different from what was presented on screen. The Empire Strikes Back went through about 5 completly seperate plotlines before Lucas found his way to the one we eventually got.
I thought this was pretty common knowledge. Anyone who has even glanced at the "Making of" books can see ideas and stories that are radically different from what was presented on screen. The Empire Strikes Back went through about 5 completly seperate plotlines before Lucas found his way to the one we eventually got.
blip
Sr Member
Re: I KNEW IT!! Lucas admits to LOST producers "ha
Thanks for finding that link DS Operative.
That's what I like about this place, people find interesting fragments to discuss.
Who knows where ideas come from, they just seem to pop out of the blue when you least expect them. It's not a logical process.
Telling a story on the other hand is a very structured process.
Thanks for finding that link DS Operative.
That's what I like about this place, people find interesting fragments to discuss.
Who knows where ideas come from, they just seem to pop out of the blue when you least expect them. It's not a logical process.
Telling a story on the other hand is a very structured process.
Last edited:
JLeezy23
Sr Member
Re: I KNEW IT!! Lucas admits to LOST producers "ha
I believe it was all planned out, the whole "Tragedy of Darth Vader" story was there from the beginning, that's that and its what i think. His 6 movie story is cool. The end. Did Bay have to explain how Skids and Mudflap disappeared? No, but its cool stuff anyway!
I believe it was all planned out, the whole "Tragedy of Darth Vader" story was there from the beginning, that's that and its what i think. His 6 movie story is cool. The end. Did Bay have to explain how Skids and Mudflap disappeared? No, but its cool stuff anyway!