Certificate of Authenticity

[handler]

I understand the purpose behind a Certificate of Authenticity. It serves to verify an item as to its screen use or other type of originality. However, there are numerous places (with their own websites) that sell screen-used props which come with their own signed COA (maybe they have the original COA that they got when they acquired the item or not). Sometimes they get the prop directly from the studio or they may get it from someone who got it from the studio (or even further down the second-hand line). If the seller does have the original COA from when they acquired the prop, shouldn't they provide that along with the sale? Also, why would someone give a "copy" of a COA with the prop instead of giving the original to the buyer? To take it a step further, sometimes people (as on Ebay) don't even have a COA for the prop but state they got it from someone who worked for the studio. Even worse, sometimes COAs are faked. How do you know if it's faked if you don't know much if anything about the person/"company" of the seller? There is no database with a running list anywhere of who to trust and who to avoid.

Now, while all of that is feasible and you'd like to think all the scenarios are truthful, there's no guarantee that someone received an item from "someone" who worked on the film because there's no COA to prove it (unless you're able to get a letter of authenticity from an actor, producer, or the like who verifies the screen-used item). Unless the COA comes from a very reputable source, how are you to know that the odd company (or person working out their basement) that is not nearly as prominent as, say, the Propstore of London, actually has a COA that you can trust?

Do you have a "top" list that you religiously trust and do you know who to steer clear from? What are the best companies/individuals you trust with COAs and which are the worst that you can feel confident to stay away from? If you're buying a screen-used item, do you even bother with items that do not come with a COA?

 

[Larry Young]

I don't care at all, and I lose the ones I get half the time. :lol

 

[Apollo]

Back in the day COA's were WOM word of mouth! :lol

 

[handler]

Back in the day COA's were WOM word of mouth! :lol

Obviously, but now there are lots of scammers. So, are COAs not worth a damn or what?

 

[Apollo]

They should be taken with a grain of salt.

Screen-used Pieces entail a lot of research, contacts and homework

 

[Guardian Devil]

It's hard to put stock in them a lot of the time really. If you know the specific piece itself is genuine then it's nice to have paperwork with it, but if there's ANY doubt in your mind, then even the paperwork can't always be trusted, no matter how impressive it seems or from what company, high, low or otherwise.
Dubious items often go from collector to collector, then dealer to dealer, the paperwork changes (gets updated) as it goes to each...but even if it ends up with what you consider an iron-glad CoA, it may not have started with one..especially with everyone and his brother on eBay making their own CoA's to accompany just about everything they sell.

I think my contacts are my biggest strength in collecting screen-used props, I couldn't have got where I am with it if it weren't for them. They have aided me in verifying a great many items and also helping me when a few weren't real.
I've also acquired many items from cast and crew who have worked on various productions - some who are happy to put their name to a piece of paper, some who feel it's a risk to their job or reputation to do so (even some who request that I not display the treasures from them on my site) which of course I'm happy to do, so not having a CoA doesn't always make an item fake, sometimes it just makes it trickier to prove it's real.

I like to think of some CoA's as business cards to help me keep in touch with the dealers and collectors I dealt with :lol

 

[handler]

It's hard to put stock in them a lot of the time really. If you know the piece is genuine then it's nice to have paperwork with it, but if there's ANY doubt, then even the paperwork can't always be trusted, no matter how impressive it seems.
Dubious items go from collector to collector, then dealer to dealer, the paperwork changes (gets updated) as it goes to each...but even if it ends up with what you consider an iron-glad CoA, it may not have started with one..especially with everyone and his brother on eBay making their own CoA's to accompany just about everything they sell.
I like to think of some of them as business cards to help me keep in touch with the dealers and collectors I trust :lol

I like the business card analogy. It definitely serves as a token of trust or why would they even offer one.

 

[Holluba]

I've often wondered about the worth of a COA myself. If it wasn't created by the studio, then in my humble opinion it's pretty much not worth the paper it's written on. I have one or two items that came directly from the studio that created the pieces, but back then, a COA was never even considered, so how do I prove that what I have is original, other than me telling you that it is?

At this stage in my life, I have no intention of ever selling, so I guess I shouldn't really worry about it.

Having said all the above, a couple of years ago I bought an item through ebay and it did come with a COA, but it was written by a third party, so it went straight into the bin.

Holluba

 

[eltee]

I spent alot of money to purchase this screen used, original prop light saber a few years ago.

I would not have done so without the assurances of the Certificate of Authenticity that came with it. I take great comfort in knowing that my prop saber is a real, screen used original prop as guranteed by the COA.

 

[Xenophon1]

I understand the purpose behind a Certificate of Authenticity. It serves to verify an item as to its screen use or other type of originality. However, there are numerous places (with their own websites) that sell screen-used props which come with their own signed COA (maybe they have the original COA that they got when they acquired the item or not). Sometimes they get the prop directly from the studio or they may get it from someone who got it from the studio (or even further down the second-hand line).

There are several companies of excellent repute which deal in props and wardrobe, and the value of their COAs (to most collectors I know) is predicated on their reputation and connection to studios and other sources. A COA is basically shorthand saying, "X got this item from a reputable source and X wagers its reputation that it's authentic." The value of that statement is contingent upon X's reputation. None of this precludes you doing your own screen-matching or other forensics on items which do come with COAs from reputable sources, or from concluding that items which don't have COAs are authentic. An item should ultimately speak for itself, but there are many kinds of items which it might otherwise be easy to fake and there especially a COA may be valuable.

If the seller does have the original COA from when they acquired the prop, shouldn't they provide that along with the sale? Also, why would someone give a "copy" of a COA with the prop instead of giving the original to the buyer?

Yes, the original COA should generally be provided with the prop or wardrobe piece. Not including it can be considered a possible warning sign, although it may indeed be the case that the original COA was lost, destroyed, or replaced by another company. Some companies like ScreenUsed have taken to including the original COAs from studio outlets together with their own COAs; I really dislike this, as it creates a potential avenue for fraud should the buyer be disreputable (one can see a fraudster thinking "Hmm, I can keep one of these COAs with my item and include the other with a knockoff").

As for copies of COAs, these usually come into play when a lot is split up. For example, if you buy a green BDU uniform from Battlestar Galactica and don't want the double undershirts that came with it, it'll display perfectly well even without them. Someone else may want to buy the double undershirts from you, and as documentation that they're sourced from someone who had the originals you may include a color copy of the original COA and your receipt from the original sale. This is commonplace; again it's just shorthand for, "X got this item from the original sale, and as proof here's a copy of something only someone who originally owned the whole lot can provide." And again, it in no way precludes you from doing your own research on the authenticity of the items.

To take it a step further, sometimes people (as on Ebay) don't even have a COA for the prop but state they got it from someone who worked for the studio.

To this day, most props and wardrobe aren't sold through official studio-authorized outlets. They're commonly disposed of through lot sales, bulk sales, propmasters or costumers keeping items, or any number of other methods. This makes it hard to judge authenticity for many off-the-shelf items since fraudsters do ply the halls of eBay; however, the most common fraudsters have become well-known and there are hallmarks of authenticity that many experienced buyers can use to quickly tell the authentic from the inauthentic.

Even worse, sometimes COAs are faked. How do you know if it's faked if you don't know much if anything about the person/"company" of the seller?

This does happen occasionally. The best way to know a real COA from a fake is unfortunately experience; there's not much else that can tell you what the "real thing" is "supposed" to look like.

But again, that doesn't preclude you from screen-matching or doing other research to establish or refute the authenticity of the prop or wardrobe piece itself.

Now, while all of that is feasible and you'd like to think all the scenarios are truthful, there's no guarantee that someone received an item from "someone" who worked on the film because there's no COA to prove it (unless you're able to get a letter of authenticity from an actor, producer, or the like who verifies the screen-used item). Unless the COA comes from a very reputable source, how are you to know that the odd company (or person working out their basement) that is not nearly as prominent as, say, the Propstore of London, actually has a COA that you can trust?

When it comes to anyone who's J. Random Seller and not Propstore or ScreenUsed or someone you know is reputable, or someone who can prove connection to the production, there's no reason you should treat a COA as anything more than a piece of paper. Let the item and the circumstances of the sale speak for itself. If you've been in the hobby a while you also probably have knowledgeable friends or forum-mates you can ask.

If you're buying a screen-used item, do you even bother with items that do not come with a COA?

Some of my most prized and valuable items either have no COAs and speak for themselves through screen-matching and sales receipts, or have sloppy two-line handwritten notes signed by production members and mailing labels as their provenance. You might also be pleasantly surprised by how often J. Random Seller on ebay turns out to be connected to the production. Most recently I bought a screen-used patch from someone who turned out to be the film's costume designer, even though she never mentioned it in the auction listing. Also recently I bought Jackie Brown's airport ID badges and lanyard (worn in the opening scene) with no COA, because they came from the estate of a collector who had a lot of other Jackie Brown items with COAs or tags from Star Wares (which sold most of the film's props) and they match what's seen on the blu-ray.

So, COAs aren't everything. It's really the items themselves and the circumstances of the sales which matter; a COA is just one embodiment of that.

 

[handler]

I spent alot of money to purchase this screen used, original prop light saber a few years ago.

...

I would not have done so without the assurances of the Certificate of Authenticity that came with it. I take great comfort in knowing that my prop saber is a real, screen used original prop as guranteed by the COA.

That's nice to joke around and all, but I'm being serious. If you don't think a COA is worth it then that's cool, too.

 

[handler]

There are several companies of excellent repute which deal in props and wardrobe, and the value of their COAs (to most collectors I know) is predicated on their reputation and connection to studios and other sources. A COA is basically shorthand saying, "X got this item from a reputable source and X wagers its reputation that it's authentic." The value of that statement is contingent upon X's reputation. None of this precludes you doing your own screen-matching or other forensics on items which do come with COAs from reputable sources, or from concluding that items which don't have COAs are authentic. An item should ultimately speak for itself, but there are many kinds of items which it might otherwise be easy to fake and there especially a COA may be valuable.

Yes, the original COA should generally be provided with the prop or wardrobe piece. Not including it can be considered a possible warning sign, although it may indeed be the case that the original COA was lost, destroyed, or replaced by another company. Some companies like ScreenUsed have taken to including the original COAs from studio outlets together with their own COAs; I really dislike this, as it creates a potential avenue for fraud should the buyer be disreputable (one can see a fraudster thinking "Hmm, I can keep one of these COAs with my item and include the other with a knockoff").

As for copies of COAs, these usually come into play when a lot is split up. For example, if you buy a green BDU uniform from Battlestar Galactica and don't want the double undershirts that came with it, it'll display perfectly well even without them. Someone else may want to buy the double undershirts from you, and as documentation that they're sourced from someone who had the originals you may include a color copy of the original COA and your receipt from the original sale. This is commonplace; again it's just shorthand for, "X got this item from the original sale, and as proof here's a copy of something only someone who originally owned the whole lot can provide." And again, it in no way precludes you from doing your own research on the authenticity of the items.

To this day, most props and wardrobe aren't sold through official studio-authorized outlets. They're commonly disposed of through lot sales, bulk sales, propmasters or costumers keeping items, or any number of other methods. This makes it hard to judge authenticity for many off-the-shelf items since fraudsters do ply the halls of eBay; however, the most common fraudsters have become well-known and there are hallmarks of authenticity that many experienced buyers can use to quickly tell the authentic from the inauthentic.

This does happen occasionally. The best way to know a real COA from a fake is unfortunately experience; there's not much else that can tell you what the "real thing" is "supposed" to look like.

But again, that doesn't preclude you from screen-matching or doing other research to establish or refute the authenticity of the prop or wardrobe piece itself.

When it comes to anyone who's J. Random Seller and not Propstore or ScreenUsed or someone you know is reputable, or someone who can prove connection to the production, there's no reason you should treat a COA as anything more than a piece of paper. Let the item and the circumstances of the sale speak for itself. If you've been in the hobby a while you also probably have knowledgeable friends or forum-mates you can ask.

Some of my most prized and valuable items either have no COAs and speak for themselves through screen-matching and sales receipts, or have sloppy two-line handwritten notes signed by production members and mailing labels as their provenance. You might also be pleasantly surprised by how often J. Random Seller on ebay turns out to be connected to the production. Most recently I bought a screen-used patch from someone who turned out to be the film's costume designer, even though she never mentioned it in the auction listing. Also recently I bought Jackie Brown's airport ID badges and lanyard (worn in the opening scene) with no COA, because they came from the estate of a collector who had a lot of other Jackie Brown items with COAs or tags from Star Wares (which sold most of the film's props) and they match what's seen on the blu-ray.

So, COAs aren't everything. It's really the items themselves and the circumstances of the sales which matter; a COA is just one embodiment of that.

Great post. Thanks for taking the time to provide your knowledge.

 

[eltee]

That's nice to joke around and all, but I'm being serious. If you don't think a COA is worth it then that's cool, too.

My point, buried in sarcasm (my apologies), was that anyone can print an official, authentic, convincing but worthless COA. Whether there is malice aforethought or if by mistake, a COA is merely a piece of paper. If you get a warranty for a product and the company disappears (physically or legally) you are left with a piece of paper. If you've been around the prop world and/or RPF long enough, you will have been exposed to stories wherein "experts" misidentified something.

What does a buyer of a prop seek with a COA? A guarantee that the item is as advertised, or an assurance that his investment will be refunded if the item turns out to be a counterfeit? Both? If a refund is offered, for how long and is there a provision for inflation, legal / research fees, exchange rate variances, etc.? If the person authenticating the item is later found to have misidentified something causing a credibility issue, is your prop / COA then rendered suspect?

If the Smithsonian Institute can be fooled, certainly a real or self proclaimed prop expert can, as well. As a cop, I have dealt with questioned documents over the years and it only takes a few minutes with a computer to generate a very convincing doc. With props, sometimes it is nice, even with a replica, to show which run or what production number within a series the specific item was, or even to prove it was an item made by an out of business company. As an example, Marco Enterprises replica props, although often very inaccurate, often fetch prices in large part because of historic value. So, if the prop turns out to be a very convincing phoney, authenticated by experts later debunked, is it worth any less, more? Think about some of the Star Trek props that this fate befell.

As mentioned in this thread, there are times when one COA covers a number of items that are eventually broken up. I bought a large lot of police props for the TV show "Special Unit 2" and when I sold the pieces to other collectors, they agreed in advance to accept a copy of the original COA. All of the buyers are RPF'rs. If they went to sell something, they could get the buyer to confirm with me that the copied COA is a genuine copy of the genuine original.

Certainly buying from established, reputable prop sellers minimizes risk. In those cases, the COA might not be required to establish authenticity for a resale of a unique, pricey item. The prospective buyer doing his own due diligence would probably call them despite the presence, or absence, of a piece of paper.

Again, I apologize for my seemingly flip response. I did not mean to minimize your question.

 

[Larry Young]

Again, I apologize for my seemingly flip response.

I thought it was funny, and I got your point.

One only has to look at the level of COAs. I actually quite like Propstore's, that have a hologram and a picture of the item so one can at least compare a photo to the item in front of you. Shows a bit of aforethought.

On the other end of the spectrum, a COA from, say, Revolution Studios is just a postcard; anybody with a scanner could duplicate the COA. Is there a big trade in counterfeit XXX: State of the Union props? Of course not.

But whether you put much stock into a COA or not I would imagine is a point of personal preference.

 

[Guardian Devil]

Is there a big trade in counterfeit XXX: State of the Union props? Of course not.

:lol well said

 

[handler]

My point, buried in sarcasm (my apologies), was that anyone can print an official, authentic, convincing but worthless COA. Whether there is malice aforethought or if by mistake, a COA is merely a piece of paper. If you get a warranty for a product and the company disappears (physically or legally) you are left with a piece of paper. If you've been around the prop world and/or RPF long enough, you will have been exposed to stories wherein "experts" misidentified something.

What does a buyer of a prop seek with a COA? A guarantee that the item is as advertised, or an assurance that his investment will be refunded if the item turns out to be a counterfeit? Both? If a refund is offered, for how long and is there a provision for inflation, legal / research fees, exchange rate variances, etc.? If the person authenticating the item is later found to have misidentified something causing a credibility issue, is your prop / COA then rendered suspect?

If the Smithsonian Institute can be fooled, certainly a real or self proclaimed prop expert can, as well. As a cop, I have dealt with questioned documents over the years and it only takes a few minutes with a computer to generate a very convincing doc. With props, sometimes it is nice, even with a replica, to show which run or what production number within a series the specific item was, or even to prove it was an item made by an out of business company. As an example, Marco Enterprises replica props, although often very inaccurate, often fetch prices in large part because of historic value. So, if the prop turns out to be a very convincing phoney, authenticated by experts later debunked, is it worth any less, more? Think about some of the Star Trek props that this fate befell.

As mentioned in this thread, there are times when one COA covers a number of items that are eventually broken up. I bought a large lot of police props for the TV show "Special Unit 2" and when I sold the pieces to other collectors, they agreed in advance to accept a copy of the original COA. All of the buyers are RPF'rs. If they went to sell something, they could get the buyer to confirm with me that the copied COA is a genuine copy of the genuine original.

Certainly buying from established, reputable prop sellers minimizes risk. In those cases, the COA might not be required to establish authenticity for a resale of a unique, pricey item. The prospective buyer doing his own due diligence would probably call them despite the presence, or absence, of a piece of paper.

Again, I apologize for my seemingly flip response. I did not mean to minimize your question.

I appreciate your thoughts. The purpose of me creating this thread is to learn more about what others feel or know about the importance or non-importance of COAs. Thanks for your input.

 

[handler]

I thought it was funny, and I got your point.

One only has to look at the level of COAs. I actually quite like Propstore's, that have a hologram and a picture of the item so one can at least compare a photo to the item in front of you. Shows a bit of aforethought.

On the other end of the spectrum, a COA from, say, Revoluti.on Studios is just a postcard; anybody with a scanner could duplicate the COA. Is there a big trade in counterfeit XXX: State of the Union props? Of course not.

But whether you put much stock into a COA or not I would imagine is a point of personal preference.

That's definitely a way to look at it. It could be a big deal personally or professionally or both depending on a person's perspective for various possible reasons.

 

[firstmark]

In theory COAs are helpful. In reality anyone can make one, and unless the documentation has a picture of the item you can just switch the item out. Even with a nice tamper proof COA like propworx one could just transfer print an image of the item that is fake to the original COA if one has one. Documentatioin gives you some source that you can further research the items source though. A good coa usually will lead to you asking propstore or propworx or what not if they sold a given item

even if an item comes from a studio they could mistake a prototype or backup item for a filmed original or get the production wrong all together. the more off the shelf an item is the more "paperwork" or reliability you need in all stages of its path to you. a copy of an auction catalog or original photos or description from a dealers website saved to share in the future is often better than a COA. the items can be lined up with that.

 

[HotDog]

When I started collecting few years ago, I trusted much more in CoAs than I do today.
To me, a COA from propworx, would be a good indicator, for a real prop. Of course, with some effort you can fake that one, too.
But as others statet, one of my most loved and valued item I have, I got without a CoA and I am very confident, it IS the real thing. I got it from Australia from a worker on Episode III. And he was so kind sending me a copy of his contract.
Later I found items from him in propstore. Now it had a COA, but that experience changed my thinking about COAs. Propstore must have had same information about this item, as I had about mine. So what..

 

[eltee]

I've gotten COA's which, in my opinion, are of value themselves. When I received a "In the Line of Fire" resin gun from the armorer/prop master of that movie (he's a friend) he hand signed the COA. Hence, it's a COA from the actual creator of the prop.

I have a handsigned letter on personalized stationary from Sean Connery. It says, "Gary, Hope you find this useful." Hey, it's a note from Sean Connery to me on his stationary. Again, a collectible of sorts on its own. I'm planning to display it alongside an "Outland" prop.

Studio COA's are often very cool looking documents with the studio logo, etc.