Solo4114
Master Member
I don't think we're gonna see eye-to-eye on this.
Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Post-release)
- Thread starter Vivek
- Start date
I don't think we're gonna see eye-to-eye on this.
I'm glad she's relatable to you. I wanted to relate to her, and yes, as man of the opposite persuasion, there were times in the film--most notably the "That was lucky!" line--that I felt myself falling in love with her. Wishing it was me (in Finn's place) off an adventure with this beautiful, bright young woman. But those feelings were repeatedly stunted by the atrocious story-telling which plagued virtually all of the film, and specifically, Rey's implausible arc.
If we had only seen her struggle more, like when Luke's ignorance showed in "What's that red light flashing?!" line, and getting zapped by the remote, and even a film later struggle stacking rocks. Those displays of ignorance and struggle helped make him relatable, believable. Rey, in contrast, was nearly perfect from the jump, and that is one of the biggest things that blew the movie for me. I just don't buy her. (But my scorn is for the filmmakers. Daisy was absolutely amazing at playing the character they'd written for her!)
The Wook
Well duh! lol Why it's imperative that we do, is beyond me.
The thing is, though, we're closer than you think. We're both for women's rights and equality. You think the filmmakers advance that cause with Rey's character. And I think the filmmakers harm that cause with Rey's character--because she's just not relatable, believable.
Rey, sadly, is emblematic of today's "instant gratification" society, in that she doesn't have to struggle for anything. It sends a horrible message to young girls. And Rey is emblematic of the not-so-fringe element in the women's rights movement to not be satisfied with making women equal to men, but to make them superior to men. I suppose it's an understandable instinct, given the years of societal persecution women have suffered--but nonetheless, it is counter productive to the cause. Rey, in her own limited way, hurts the cause. And with a few tweaks, it didn't have to be that way. Rey could've been a terrific role model...to the extent that movie characters can be role models.
So don't you see, Dan? We both want the same thing. We just have different perspectives on how to achieve it. And that's okay.
The Wook
Sourdoh
Sr Member
The Wook : You seem to be issuing an exit speech with each post, and then come back to belabor points that were more than apparent pages, and pages, and pages ago. If you want to put this to rest, just quit posting these excuses. Go on to other issues other than trying to get everyone to agree by saying you don't care if they agree! Just how many ways can you say, "Let's agree to disagree", huh?
Well duh! lol Why it's imperative that we do, is beyond me.
The thing is, though, we're closer than you think. We're both for women's rights and equality. You think the filmmakers advance that cause with Rey's character. And I think the filmmakers harm that cause with Rey's character--because she's just not relatable, believable.
Rey, sadly, is emblematic of today's "instantgratification" society, in that she doesn't have to struggle for anything. It sends a horrible message to young girls. And Rey is emblematic of the not-so-fringe element in the women's rights movement to not be satisfied with making women equal to men, but to make them superior to men. I suppose it's an understandable instinct, given the years of societal persecution women have suffered--but nonetheless, it is counter productive to the cause. Rey, in her own limited way, hurts the cause. And with a few tweaks, it didn't have to be that way. Rey could've been a terrific role model...to the extent that movie characters can be role models.
So don't you see, Dan? We both want the same thing. We just have different perspectives on how to achieve it. And that's okay.
The Wook
Well, you did say to Dan "You know it's true" so it would seem you want him to agree with you. In regard to your thoughts on Rey having a negative impact in young girls you couldn't be more wrong. Rey has become a hero to both young girls and boys, look at the outcry of complaints of a lack of Rey toys in the market. She has resonated in a powerful and positive way.
Just trying to provide some context on my posts, about who I am and what I believe in. I don't care to persuade members here to loathe the film. I just didn't want an opinion to persist, undefended, that I am a misogynist, or even a sexist--a couple of highly charged words--because the reality is nothing of the sort.
The Wook
As has been pointed out, it's your comment that had a hint, dusting in my words, of misogyny, not specifically you.
Oh, c'mon, Bryan, it's simply human nature that we want people to agree with us. My point is that I came here to vent, not to persuade. When people reply to my venting, sure, sometimes I'm replying back. Crikey, that's what this site is all about. But believe me, I have been around long enough to know that you, Dan, Kristen, Gizmo, and all the rest who disagree with me on TFA, are intractable in your views. As am I. Maybe very minor points, we could budge an inch or so--but not with the major elements of this movie that we either love or loathe.
You're right, Rey is a role model for girls and boys. That's the problem. She's a bad role model.
The Wook
Solo4114
Master Member
No, I don't think we know enough about Rey yet to be clear on whether she's really just instantly good at everything, or whether there's a reason behind her abilities.
If you want to criticize how she was portrayed, I'd say the bigger issue is that we know relatively little about her and don't get enough of a chance to get to know her. The film itself is so busy introducing us to, well, everything that we don't have enough time to get to know any of the principals among the new cast. So, we don't know whether Rey is just a "competent woman" in the literary sense of the term, or whether she's a hero who has flaws, limitations, and reasons for her abilities.
Personally, I think the film is heavily suggesting the latter. She doesn't know the origin of her abilities. She's often as surprised as those around her at her exercising such abilities (and a lot of that is due to Daisy's performance). The two instances that most stand out to me in this regard are when she somehow pilots the Falcon but has "no idea" how she's doing it so well, and when she uses the mind-trick thing. The surprise on her face in those scenes, for me, conveyed that she had no idea she even had these abilities, and that she doesn't really understand them. Which, at the moment, is what I'd say her flaw really is: she doesn't know the extent of her powers in any sense. Likewise, it is strongly, strongly implied that there is a reason for all of this. She's not just good as some form of wish fulfillment or to push a political agenda. She's good because of something in her history, something that makes her special, but we don't know what that is...yet.
Her ability to use the lightsabre I think is already pretty well addressed. She's clearly decently versed in melee combat using her staff, and she manages to tap into the Force somehow, without really understanding how. The film makes clear that Rey has power and abilities that she doesn't understand and has only the barest amount of control over. But the implication is that she is incredibly powerful. If this is what she could do just on raw instinct, what will she do when she's trained? When her personal history is revealed and understood?
Where some see a plot hole with Rey in terms of her abilities, or just a "Mary Sue/competent woman" figure, I see unresolved plot threads. For me, that's the difference. The story might still end up being totally ineffective. She could turn out to be motivated by really stupid stuff, or the explanation for her power ends up being incredibly dumb or lame, or her "trained abilities" basically turn her into a god in a way that's problematic for the story. But at the moment I think we can't really say for certain, and I'm giving the film the benefit of the doubt. I think they'll pay off all of this, and that all of this -- all the questions about her power, all the "Holy crap! How is she so good at this?!" stuff, all the mystery -- will be revealed in what I hope will be a satisfactory manner.
Maybe she's part of the old prophecy, somehow. Anakin brought "balance" to the Force by both slaughtering the Jedi AND killing the Emperor. Rey will continue to bring "balance" by becoming the first of a new kind of Jedi who acknowledge both their Dark and Light Sides, and do not allow the Dark to control them. There's a lot of ways this story could play out, and we're in totally uncharted territory at this point (which I think is wonderfully exciting!).
I don't actually care if Rey is more powerful than Finn or Poe or any of the other male characters. I don't see it as a zero-sum game, really. It's not like Rey being more powerful makes Finn and Poe not powerful or skilled in their own right. Poe is demonstrably the best pilot we've seen in the series. (We assume Wedge is good, too, but aside from surviving, we didn't see him pull off the kind of stunts Poe did. Not saying Wedge isn't as talented, just that we have no evidence one way or the other, aside from mere survival.) Finn manages to hold his own for a few minutes against the (wounded) Master of the Knights of Ren, and he brings a lot of heart to the film. (If anything, I'd say Finn seems like the slightly-more-competent-and-less-sad-sack Xander of the group.) He's also tough enough that a slash to the back didn't kill him.
Anyway, I don't see Rey as some advancement of a feminist cause to emasculate men or give women instant power. I see Rey as a purpose-built mystery who has just been introduced in the first third of a story. Whereas ANH was written as a standalone upon which you could expand, TFA was written intentionally as a "first of three (and maybe more)" story.
Well, it's not an issue of being intractable it's just no matter how I flip around the film in my head I still see something special even with the negative issues raised. I hear what you and others are saying I just don't find it compelling. Regarding Rey, would you walk up to a 9 year old girl playing with her Rey action figure and give her your reasons why she is a poor role model? Maybe it's more important that girl have her hero.
- - - Updated - - -
I don't, you're just a little crazy.
Yeah, we wouldn't want a strong, independent, self-sufficient character to look up to, would we?
Solo4114
Master Member
That's about where I come out.
I see the flaws. I just don't think the good in the film is outweighed by them.
They could've made the film a little less packed to allow scenes to breathe. That might've given the opportunity for Rey to have a line like "I don't understand any of this. I've never been able to do half the things I've done in the last day and a half!" They could've had a line or two about the state of galactic politics. They could've done several things here and there to make the film better and avoid a lot of the criticisms they've received.
But, you know, what's there is still pretty good.
"Good", I could handle. FRACKING AMAZING AND BETTER THAN ANYONE ELSE, is what I have an issue with.
But to your point Dan, you are forgetting here that Rey is a fictional character, made up by real people. Her backstory or frontstory that we'll discover in future films is still all fictional, made up by real people. Whatever Rey is, was, or becomes, it is from the minds (agendas) of real people.
The Wook
ps~loved the Xander reference! lol
What am i? A monster?! How could you ask such a thing. :lol
But, if I had young kids, I wouldn't show them the movie.
The Wook
ps~I've met kids, ages 5 and 7, who said they were going to go see Star Wars. The excitement in their eyes was wonderful. They asked me if I'd seen it yet, and if I loved it. To those two questions, I blurted out a truth, followed immediately by a lie.
Solo4114
Master Member
Well, yeah, but...so what? So, she's written by people? I mean, you could argue that Buffy was no different in this respect, especially in terms of the emasculation of non-supernatural men around her. You could level the exact same charges of feminist agenda-pushing at her (to which, I think, Joss Whedon would respond to with "Uhh...yes. I thought that was pretty obvious?"). It didn't make her a less fleshed out character. And Buffy had flaws, too, in terms of her occasional lack of self-esteem, the fact that she felt distanced from the rest of the world, her inability to have a normal life, her penchant for bad-boys, her screwed up family history, etc.
When I think about it, I don't see Rey as all that different from Buffy, except that she hasn't had a Watcher to sit down with her and say "Ok, here's the deal with your powers and why you have them. Also, we need to do some training." Again, bear in mind that this is part 1 of a 3+ part story. We got to know Buffy over 7 seasons (plus a few appearances on Angel). We had lots of time to explore her abilities, her limits, her fears, the source of her power, etc. With Rey, we've had 1 film that wasn't entirely focused on her, and was chock-a-block full of other stuff happening at the same time.
Give it time. I think (I hope!) future films will make TFA a bit better viewing for you in retrospect.
That's the problem, as I said in previous post. Buffy is pure fantasy to me. Star Wars, while fictional, and yes, fantasy, had characters that felt real to me. Luke felt real to me. He was flawed, and ignorant when we met him, in spite of his extraordinary skills and potential. I could relate to Luke for that reason (not because he was male, although, naturally, that was part of it).
I would've made Rey more flawed, more ignornant, more human, more believable, more relatable...like Luke.
But, if you're gonna show me a character like Rey in a Star Wars movie, who's doing incredible schit she can't believe, I'd want to see a lot more expressions of disbelief, and FEAR, out of her, than we saw.
Have you seen Scorcese's The Last Temptation of ******? Willem Dafoe plays ***** in this exact way. It's brilliantly written, and a tour de force from Dafoe.
I do hope future Star Wars films get better, and somehow make this one more palatable. Because TFA, on its own, is a disaster.
The Wook
Curmudgeon
Well-Known Member
I do agree that some things felt a bit too easy with Rey, but she did have a totally different upbringing from Luke. Although both were pretty isolated, Luke just did work on his uncle's farm while Rey seems to have been forced to fend for herself for her whole life. I'm sure being a scavenger isn't a completely safe job, especially when they appear to work for food rations (I bet that leads to some confrontation). I don't think its too far fetched that she would learn how to fight and do a lot of the other things she does.
It does kind of seem like people are either complaining that things were too similar or things were too different which doesn't leave a lot of room for anything good.
Yeah it was close to ANH and I kind of wish there wasn't another super weapon (I think that was a stretch) but I still think this one had a lot more too offer than the last 3 films.
It does kind of seem like people are either complaining that things were too similar or things were too different which doesn't leave a lot of room for anything good.
Yeah it was close to ANH and I kind of wish there wasn't another super weapon (I think that was a stretch) but I still think this one had a lot more too offer than the last 3 films.
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