The Hobbit - starts filming March 21

I don't understand why there should be no motion blur? There is a blur when you move fast out in real life
There is no motion blur in "real life".
Real life plays out at a nearly infinite framerate for all intents and purposes.

Visible light which is what we see has a frequency in the TERAhertz range (400 000 000 000 000 - 790 000 000 000 000 Hz). At least one wavelength is needed to determine color and that's how many we get fed per second.

Motion blur only arises from the limitations of the humans to percieve. Your brain creates it after getting whatever the eyes are capable of seeing which is at least 2-3 times more than 24fps.

Motion blur in film is nothing more than an artifact of the process. It is not representative of reality.

It doesn't even work the same way your brain creates its own motion blur.
Whether it's celuloid or a digital censor motion blur is created when the sample rate is significantly slower than the change of the image and thus each image is essentially multiple image combined into one losing definition of any one instance of time. The brain on the other hand doesn't just project what is recorded by the eyes but it interprets that 55-100Hz(depending on how you measure it since the eyes see different motion and flicker differently) signal and using both that and memory it constructs the image prioritizing what it percieves important.

With film it's purely photography.

With the brain it is its own cameraman, director, editor and surprisingly often visual effects.

You do no percieve film as you do reality because film has a significantly smaller bandwidth than reality. While that pre-processed, low bandwidth signal has been around for over a century and has carried many, MANY amazing experiences it has never been the only one and it will be experiemented with in the future.

There's no reason to hold onto 24fps, sure... but the format chosen has to be comfortable for the eye and present naturalistic movements. 24fps was just that
But it wasn't. The choice of 24fps had absolutely nothing to do with visual aesthetic or comfort. It had everything to do with getting clearity from optical soundtracks by getting a both constant and standard filmspeed and at the same time the minimum needed for economic reasons. Before that silent movies were a messy range of frame rates as low as 12 or 16fps and even that was amazing because there's a train coming at you out of the screen or other things you never expected to see.

, except when doing fast pans. The juddering of the fast pan wasn't completely removed by 48fps and that speed added a feel of unnatural speed to movements and making things look exactly what they were instead of what they were supposed to look.
"what they were supposed to look"? But how do you know what they were "supposed to" look like? We're merely consumers and almost never will we have access to the creator's brain and know what it was "supposed to" be but assuming they had adequate creative control from the people signing the cheques what you see in the theatre is surely what they wanted to show you and thus "making things look exactly what they were" is exactly "what they were supposed to look" like.




our *eyes* don't operate at the equivalent of a frame rate that high.
Peter Jackson (if you value his opinion) said 55 is the minimum to fool the eye. Douglass Trumbull's experiments for Showscan found 72fps to be best but that was the 1970s and 80s. Now there's rumors of Trumbull wanting 120fps 3D. John Carmack who is currently helping develop the Oculus Rift VR goggles for video games and other uses says the good old 60fps is an absolute must for fluidity and immersion.


People think it makes things look "cheap" because, previously, only cheap TV was shot at high frame rate. It's association, not cause. Those bad TV shows weren't bad because of the high frame rate, they were bad because they were just bad. Over the years, it became ingrained in our minds that HFR=bad, but that's not necessarily true.

This is the first time in history that HFR has been used on a AAA, high-budget production. It's time to make new associations.
This :love
Even if HFR fails in film now because of old associations or rushed implementaions it will spread to other media and people will see its benefits.


Wouldn't surprise me if we started seeing more people shooting HFR in the future. In another five or ten years, it may be hard to find any 24p releases anymore.
I highly doubt 24fps will disappear at all let alone so soon. This is still a very expensive process. Not everyone can afford to use 3D or HFR and not everyone wants to use it. Film will stay but expand itself like it always has all the while blockbusters will bloat into bigger spectacles. The masses do like their spectacles.


Going back to the earlier point of brain fed film vs brain fed reality, film, as it has been for a very long time has not really been a representation of reality. It has been (and no doubt will continue to be) a fairly specific yet varied format of visual storytelling. It has always been extremely broad in both what stories it told and how it told them. There will always be dramas, comedies, documentaries, and everything in between and people are both sticking to tradition and exploring new ways to do things. Even if proportionalities of genre and technology used change very few things disappear. People still make "film" films, they still make art films or experimental films and they always will but for some people that's still limiting as long as you're stuck just making films.

I think what's happening here isn't a change in direction of film as some people fear but a branching off. This is for the people who want more than film had to offer.

James Cameron said he wanted not just a film but he wanted to try and take audiences to Pandora. For him the pre-processed, low bandwidth signal and other artifacts of "film" were a barrier and he had to wait years and develop some technology himself to get to a minimum threshold before he started. I think the ambitious directors like him these days don't want just film but they want to create whole realities. 2D was a major barrier, we don't see the world as a single flat image, we need paralax to reconstruct the world in our mind. 24fps is the next barrier because we do see at a significantly higher framerates. Technology is paving the way for the possibility of these artificial realities by making the experience closer to how we actually percieve the world. It is still up to the creators to do due diligence in making these realities believable. It will no doubt be an enormous challange and consumers may be unsatisfied at first but this is only the beginning. It won't affect the vast majority of film makers but it should be an interesting option for the curious as long as they're able secure the funding for the still rare and expensive cameras and technicians.

I actually didn't know what Hollywood has next in the HFR pipeline but if this list is accurate it's not that much. It seem like just Hobbit again next year. How much will opinions change by then? How much will the first HFR release affect the 2nd one? The eventual BIG step should be the Avatar sequel and I am very much excited for that.
 
There is no motion blur in "real life".
Real life plays out at a nearly infinite framerate for all intents and purposes.

With respect, that may be true but is also sophistry. There is motion blur as we experience real life.

Motion blur only arises from the limitations of the humans to percieve. Your brain creates it after getting whatever the eyes are capable of seeing which is at least 2-3 times more than 24fps.

24fps is just a little faster than the point at which the eye can no longer distinguish separate images. It's true the eye can see faster events, such as a very brief period of darkness. This isn't relevant since the eye *can't* distinguish separate *images* at that kind of speed.

Motion blur in film is nothing more than an artifact of the process. It is not representative of reality.

Of course film is different; you don't see wheel spokes going backward in real life (yes I know that strobing is not the same thing but it serves the same point). 24fps is nonetheless closer to experienced reality than a total absence of blur. (Hobbit actually HAS blur due to Jackson's shutter speed choices - just very little of it.)

Even if HFR fails in film now because of old associations or rushed implementaions it will spread to other media and people will see its benefits.

I'm sure you didn't intend it as such but that comes over as a glib dismissal of the concerns of the anti crowd. If it fails now then it will be because audiences found it aesthetically displeasing. Who are you to tell them they're ignorant and hidebound? It may very well be nothing to do with habitual, traditional associations, and AFAIK we're seeing anything but a rushed implementation with The Hobbit.

I still like the analogy of "being there" as it was filmed.

I'll never get that; that feeling destroys the magic utterly for me. Vive la difference and all.
 
If you haven't seen it, how can you judge it? Just going on what other people say? That really doesn't seem reasonable to me.

I've now seen the Hobbit in 2D (midnight release) and 3D HFR IMAX. Personally, I thought the HFR was gorgeous. There were one or two points, right at the beginning, where things looked a bit artificial, but other than that--amazing.

I don't watch TV (on TV) or soap operas, so I have no preconceived notions of frame rate and relative cheapness thereof. But I loved the clean, sharp lines. I loved being able to actually see the wonderful costuming details, even when the characters were moving (being able to count the slits in Thorin's coat as he spins around? So cool!). So for me, it's a win. I'll happily pay to see things like this in HFR in the future.
 
I'll never get that; that feeling destroys the magic utterly for me. Vive la difference and all.

There are (were) few films that could completely take me out of everyday life:

Star Wars 1977
The Empire Strikes Back 1980
Lord of the Rings 2001-2003
The Hobbit 2012

"Film" is what we are used to, but I have no problem with HFR in the fact that my mind looks at it as being there, or being with as it all happens.

The clearness / no blurryness of HRF 3D is what *I* want my 3D experience to be like.
 
Am about ready to go see The Hobbit and was trying to figure out the best way to do so—there's 2D, Standard 3D, 3D HFR (High Frame Rate), and 3d IMAX at a the rate of a pretty penny.

'I used to be indecisive, now I'm not so sure...'

Then I came across this: The Hobbit: An Unexpected Masterclass in Why HFR fails, and a reaffirmation of what makes cinema magical « Vincent Laforet's Blog

I still don't know how to go watch this movie! I'm skeptical about 3D because the glasses always makes the picture darker... which bugs me... but the film WAS shot in 3D... :confused
 
If you haven't seen it, how can you judge it? Just going on what other people say? That really doesn't seem reasonable to me.

I've now seen the Hobbit in 2D (midnight release) and 3D HFR IMAX. Personally, I thought the HFR was gorgeous. There were one or two points, right at the beginning, where things looked a bit artificial, but other than that--amazing.

Good to hear, and hopefully I will fall into your camp too (If you're aware I haven't seen it yet, then you're aware I'm *withholding* judgement. If I like it, I'll say so! ) Like Rodneyfaile I also enjoy trying new things.

But even if it turns out that I like it, I'll support the right of those who don't to say so. I can't understand why some hate the new 3D, but to each his own.
 
There is no motion blur in "real life".
Real life plays out at a nearly infinite framerate for all intents and purposes.
Thank you for that scientific explanation that is pretty much pointless when the eye cannot perceive it. There IS motion blur in real life as our eyes perceives it when we move fast. So my argument holds.

But it wasn't. The choice of 24fps had absolutely nothing to do with visual aesthetic or comfort. It had everything to do with getting clearity from optical soundtracks by getting a both constant and standard filmspeed and at the same time the minimum needed for economic reasons. Before that silent movies were a messy range of frame rates as low as 12 or 16fps and even that was amazing because there's a train coming at you out of the screen or other things you never expected to see.
Yes, and now they have the chance to find the correct framerate that not only looks better, but matches the framerate the eye perceives in instead of some randomly chosen one, which, like strobe lighting will be perceived weird unless at the right speed. THAT has been the complaint with The Hobbit and that Tru-Motion crap there's on new TV's. It's not the proper frame rate, so they might as well just keep it at 24 as that has the proper look to it for the most part, regarding speed and movements.

"what they were supposed to look"? But how do you know what they were "supposed to" look like? We're merely consumers and almost never will we have access to the creator's brain and know what it was "supposed to" be but assuming they had adequate creative control from the people signing the cheques what you see in the theatre is surely what they wanted to show you and thus "making things look exactly what they were" is exactly "what they were supposed to look" like.
A prop that is supposed to be a sword should not look like a plastic or wooden or rubber sword just painted silver. And Bilbo's sword looked like one of the light up toys whenever it was shining blue - a very different effect than during the LotR trilogy, where the glow didn't light up the blade like a flashlight, but just had that blue hue. Sure, that's a change in the effect and probably not purely caused by the frame rate issue. It still made it look fake.

James Cameron said he wanted not just a film but he wanted to try and take audiences to Pandora. For him the pre-processed, low bandwidth signal and other artifacts of "film" were a barrier and he had to wait years and develop some technology himself to get to a minimum threshold before he started. I think the ambitious directors like him these days don't want just film but they want to create whole realities.
Yes, he wants to create worlds and realities. Not have people experience costumes and props and sets, but real worlds. He won't do that with 48 fps.

Of course film is different; you don't see wheel spokes going backward in real life (yes I know that strobing is not the same thing but it serves the same point). 24fps is nonetheless closer to experienced reality than a total absence of blur.
Then the frame rate where the spokes on wheels turn the way we perceive them in real life should be chosen and then I'd probably have no issue with it or thinking it's looking fake.
 
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There's no particular frame rate which would achieve that, strobing depends on the speed of the cart/car/train/whatever.
 
There's no particular frame rate which would achieve that, strobing depends on the speed of the cart/car/train/whatever.
Well, just get it so that it matches how it looks to the human eye and human perception. Screw the rest. I know people may not perceive in exactly the same frame rate or frequency or whatever... but if the 24 fps frame rate is to be changed, it seems foolish to stop at 48, as I doubt anyone perceives in that rate. Might as well go all out and try to match human perception as best as possible... otherwise... why change? Especially when the change doesn't look as "natural, except in fast pans" as the current speed.
 
At a wild, mostly unfounded guess, perhaps somewhere around 26 or 27 FPS might work better? I mentioned earlier the existing 24FPS rate is already faster than the eye can distinguish separate images (kinda obviously since film wouldn't work otherwise, lol) but in fact it's more than twice that threshold.

This is why old silent movies look odd and jerky at their low frame rates (e.g. 11-16FPS). On the other hand, you only have to go to 30FPS (video frame rate) before things start to look yuck.

So the range is pretty narrow. 24FPS only loses out in very fast action and panning shots. Could be that's pretty much the sweet spot?

Seeing Hobbit on the weekend, perhaps that'll convince me otherwise.
 
This is why old silent movies look odd and jerky at their low frame rates (e.g. 11-16FPS). On the other hand, you only have to go to 30FPS (video frame rate) before things start to look yuck.

Maybe it's just what we have become accustomed to. After some time spent watching HFR, the current standard will be the new "odd and jerky".
 
Perhaps I adjusted, but just saw it for my second time with the new frame rate in the IMAX. I didn't have that 'few minutes' it takes to get use to it this go around and it surprisingly didn't bother me, whatsoever. I enjoyed it FAR better this time and they didn't seem to 'move funny.' Don't know why that is unless my brain has just accepted it now, but I still have no issue with the standard rate we're use to viewing films. This time I was allowed to enjoy other things because I wasn't distracted with the way it moved.
 
I really hope we get a home video release of this version of the film. Sadly, there's no home video format that actually supports it. At this point, I'm just hoping for a MP4 file on a separate disc that I can pop into the computer to watch it.
 
Just got back. Saw it in the 3D HFR. Loved the story. Hated the HFR. It was okay as long as the camera wasn't moving. As soon as the camera moved it looked like watching a DVD with the 1x fast forward on.

My only gripes with the story were the idea that every time they're outnumbered Gandalf just showed up and did something magical and saved them all. The other gripe was the weak way the Goblin King died. I mean the king should have been a little tougher and less comedic.
 
My only gripes with the story were the idea that every time they're outnumbered Gandalf just showed up and did something magical and saved them all. The other gripe was the weak way the Goblin King died. I mean the king should have been a little tougher and less comedic.
I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you haven't read the book. That's pretty much how it's written.
 
Still worried 48fpr will make the thing look like video

10 years back I saw Coppola's The Conversation on this weird new hi-tech TV that could sort of fake up an increased frame rate - the motion was so fluid, so perfect, that it looked like the whole movie had been shot on broadcast-quality VTR - ruined the film, all the sets suddenly looked like they were sitting in a TV studio, everything was too clear, too smooth

Martyn at 24fps, the eye does distinguish individual frames - think scratches and dirt on single frames of old films - for me, the strobing of 24fps IS film, it's what makes it look exotic and cool in a way that video doesn't

24fps provides distance - I know I want that distance because I already know immersive - it's what video gives you

Anyway I'll see how the HFR checks out in The H

(again - no fullstops due to beer in keyboard)
 
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Steve, my new TV does that, it's HORRIBLE. :lol

As for the eye's sensitivity, apparently it is more complex than that - the eye has different threshholds for different things, like light, dark, definition etc. Scratches and dirt are pretty common across multiple frames, but the eye can perceive darkness for very brief instants of time indeed e.g. the time between frames; flicker does exist and perhaps scratches on single frames are seen too, I don't know. But the eye can't distinguish between separate images at a rate of more than about ten or eleven a second. If it did, the illusion of film just wouldn't work. Or something like that.

I fully agree about distance but I figure this might well be my only chance to see a film in HFR, should it not take off. If as some say it just takes a little getting used to but is amazing once you do, I believe I'll be able to adjust. Despite my bias against the TV look, I'm going in with an open mind for the film. Hope to like it, but if the adjustment is painfully impossible then I'll want to be out there bitching about it all over the Internet. :lol
 
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