Star Wars saga. Prequels and Sequels.

[Paul Andrew]

Can we get a list of approved topics that we're allowed to discuss, Internet Police Officer Paul?

That's not what I meant, I'm just... like, is it still 2005? Did RotS just come out? It's just a real snake eating its own tail kind of moment to me. Clearly talk about whatever you want. I'm not anybody. Let me know when we get back around to how much Jar Jar sucks or why Obi Wan's beard quality drops from scene to scene in AotC I guess.

 

[Axlotl]

That's not what I meant, I'm just... like, is it still 2005? Did RotS just come out? It's just a real snake eating its own tail kind of moment to me. Clearly talk about whatever you want. I'm not anybody. Let me know when we get back around to how much Jar Jar sucks or why Obi Wan's beard quality drops from scene to scene in AotC I guess.

I apologize for being snarky.
I'm having a very, very, very bad day.

 

[Paul Andrew]

I apologize for being snarky.
I'm having a very, very, very bad day.

I'm not having a bad day, but for what it's worth I didn't intend to sound as snarky as I came off. We're here to have fun dude. You're good by me.

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

I mean, hell, Star Wars came out forty-four years ago and I'm still nitpicking the story holes and filmmaking goofs I noticed in it as a kid. As humans, we tend to do that with the things we love the most. Heck, that's how the entire practice of Kabbalah began -- looking for deeper meaning, or answering problematic questions like "Where did Cain's wife come from". Star Trek fans have been doing it for even longer. One of the first questions Franz Joseph Schnaubelt asked when his daughter and her friends watching the show in reruns every week made him start paying attention was, "Where do they go to the bathroom on that ship?"

Maybe if people had stood up and grilled the storytellers around the ancient Mediterranean, ancient Greek myth wouldn't be the mess it is. I mean... What? Hephaestus, son of Zeus, was appointed the guardian of the infant Zeus... who was his father. Maybe if Homer hadn't surrounded himself with a bunch of yes-men who wouldn't tell him no when he needed to hear it, the Prequels wouldn't be so bad.

 

[HeartBlade]

I mean, hell, Star Wars came out forty-four years ago and I'm still nitpicking the story holes and filmmaking goofs I noticed in it as a kid. As humans, we tend to do that with the things we love the most. Heck, that's how the entire practice of Kabbalah began -- looking for deeper meaning, or answering problematic questions like "Where did Cain's wife come from". Star Trek fans have been doing it for even longer. One of the first questions Franz Joseph Schnaubelt asked when his daughter and her friends watching the show in reruns every week made him start paying attention was, "Where do they go to the bathroom on that ship?"

Maybe if people had stood up and grilled the storytellers around the ancient Mediterranean, ancient Greek myth wouldn't be the mess it is. I mean... What? Hephaestus, son of Zeus, was appointed the guardian of the infant Zeus... who was his father. Maybe if Homer hadn't surrounded himself with a bunch of yes-men who wouldn't tell him no when he needed to hear it, the Prequels wouldn't be so bad.

Given the fact that there are many interpretations of given myths, I would be more surprised if there werent scholars debating on the “canon” of Zeus or Arthur. The more extensive a myth or story becomes, the more people try to order it to make sense and the more “plot holes” or irregularities that come up that people want answers to fill in.

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

Yup. So. Which is the "real" Star Wars? George's cut? Marcia's? The version with the rear-channel dialogue and sound effects or without? I can't blame historians for tearing their hair out about even the Arthur myth, and that was only fifteen hundred years ago. I mean, what do we know...?

We know Lancelot was a Gary-Stu for the French adapter in the Middle Ages, blatantly added to the story. We know the Templar allegory of Parzifal/Percival and the Grail got folded into Arthur's storyline. We know Excalibur is a Latinized bastardization of "caliburn" which is Welsh for "sword", and it was likely a finely-made steel spatha -- the Roman cavalry longsword -- which would have been magical to the invading Saxons and their iron and bronze short swords. We also know Excalibur was not the Sword in the Stone -- and also that that seems to just be an older divine-ordination fragment that was also folded in. We know the man himself was likely Cornish or Welsh and that there was no "England" as such yet, let alone a single ruler over all of it. We know "merlin" (or, rather, the actual Welsh word) is a title, not a name, so having an older one early in the telling and a younger one later makes sense if it's not the same person. We suspect Guenivere (Gwynyvar in Welsh, and where we get "Jennifer" after the ancient version of the Google Translate game took it over to France and back to England) was likely the daughter of a Welsh king or chieftain and pledged to Arthur to seal an alliance against the invaders after the Romans pulled out of Britannia...

We've made a lot of progress over the last several decades of separating the myth from the history. Kinda the same as we've been doing with Star Wars (and part of why Jon Rinzler's death is such a loss). And just as possible we'll never have a "final answer".

 

[Paul Andrew]

I think the real answer is because midichlorians

 

[Riceball]

I always thought that Arthur was believed to be a Roman, Arturius if you will.

 

[Laspector]

I don't care--Excalibur is an awesome movie!!

 

[Axlotl]

But the armor is all wrong!!!!!!!

 

[Sluis Van Shipyards]

Obi Wan and Yoda had a long elevator ride worth of time to council Anakin on how to return from the netherworld of the force. The Emperor‘s throne room isn’t just around the corner from the hanger bay where Luke dragged Anakin.

"Okay Anakin, we have to go over this quick! If you don't have it down by the time Luke gets you in the shuttle, it's all Qui-Gon 'Where's my body?!?!' for you!"

Seriously though, does Anakin die once Luke removes his helmet and has a chat, or does he live longer? I don't think it's ever mentioned, or maybe he was dead right then.

 

[scarf man]

"Okay Anakin, we have to go over this quick! If you don't have it down by the time Luke gets you in the shuttle, it's all Qui-Gon 'Where's my body?!?!' for you!"

Seriously though, does Anakin die once Luke removes his helmet and has a chat, or does he live longer? I don't think it's ever mentioned, or maybe he was dead right then.

Lol at your “dialogue“.

I got the impression that Anakin passes away as he slumps away from Luke after his last words. Who knows? The suit may have kept his bodily functions going for a bit, so we didn’t see him fade away like Yoda did when he died.

 

[batguy]

I always thought that Arthur was believed to be a Roman, Arturius if you will.

He seems to have been a compilation of real figures who lived in several centuries.

If Doc Brown was choosing a single time & place to take the DeLorean and "go meet King Arthur" then it's probably about 500 A.D. in western England. The invading Anglo-Saxons' gradual progress across the island was halted for about a generation there. The legends of Arthur's biggest battles seem to point to that scene.

 

[HeartBlade]

Yup. So. Which is the "real" Star Wars? George's cut? Marcia's? The version with the rear-channel dialogue and sound effects or without? I can't blame historians for tearing their hair out about even the Arthur myth, and that was only fifteen hundred years ago. I mean, what do we know...?

We know Lancelot was a Gary-Stu for the French adapter in the Middle Ages, blatantly added to the story. We know the Templar allegory of Parzifal/Percival and the Grail got folded into Arthur's storyline. We know Excalibur is a Latinized bastardization of "caliburn" which is Welsh for "sword", and it was likely a finely-made steel spatha -- the Roman cavalry longsword -- which would have been magical to the invading Saxons and their iron and bronze short swords. We also know Excalibur was not the Sword in the Stone -- and also that that seems to just be an older divine-ordination fragment that was also folded in. We know the man himself was likely Cornish or Welsh and that there was no "England" as such yet, let alone a single ruler over all of it. We know "merlin" (or, rather, the actual Welsh word) is a title, not a name, so having an older one early in the telling and a younger one later makes sense if it's not the same person. We suspect Guenivere (Gwynyvar in Welsh, and where we get "Jennifer" after the ancient version of the Google Translate game took it over to France and back to England) was likely the daughter of a Welsh king or chieftain and pledged to Arthur to seal an alliance against the invaders after the Romans pulled out of Britannia...

We've made a lot of progress over the last several decades of separating the myth from the history. Kinda the same as we've been doing with Star Wars (and part of why Jon Rinzler's death is such a loss). And just as possible we'll never have a "final answer".

Good points about Arthur. I think what makes “canon” simpler for fiction like Star Wars is that it is fiction so what is canon ultimately is determined by the “God/creator” of that fictional universe, in this case Lucas. I think we can assume the primary sources to be the Lucas-directed films and maybe the clone wars cartoon as they depict the universe as Lucas intended. Material approved by George and doesnt clash with the movies can be second-hand sources and everything else is mainly fan-fiction based on the universe.

that is probably the big reason why people care about “canon” in fictional universes tbh. If it fits the universe and adheres to the “internal rules,” it is “canonized” as part of that universe and something added to it while if it doesnt, it will always just be fan-fiction even if the work is decent.

the drawback ofcourse is that the final say lies with the original author, in this case Lucas. Unlike Arthurian legend which is supposedly based on a real person, Star Wars is pure fiction so there is no “historical artifacts” we can find to prove that Han Solo is actually force sensitive or Greedo’s dad knew little orphan Annie. It doesnt help that Lucas cant let bygones be bygones and not try to retroactively change the primary source canon which screws things up. Also means, once the original creator is gone, I do think you can no longer really “canonize” anything new to that fictional universe.

 

[Jagjaguwar]

Seriously though, does Anakin die once Luke removes his helmet and has a chat, or does he live longer? I don't think it's ever mentioned, or maybe he was dead right then.

This reminds me of one time when I was watching the trilogy with a group of friends back in college, including one girl who hadn’t ever seen the movies and was also (unfortunately) the type of movie-watcher who asked questions constantly about everything.

It had been explained to her what had happened with Obi-Wan as a force ghost, and so when Anakin appeared as a ghost shortly after the others on Endor, she turned to us and said, “wait, did he just die? Was he ALIVE when Luke was burning his body?”

Haven’t been able to watch that scene without thinking about it ever since.

 

[Psab keel]

Vader was engulfed by the Emperor's lightning. I thought it was clear it short circuited his life support systems. Without them his ventilator malfunctioned and accounts for his labored breathing in the film which is a wheezing sound compared to the normal rythm we hear throughout the rest of the trilogy. It's amazing he lasted as long as he did when Luke nearly got him on the shuttle.

 

[HeartBlade]

Vader was engulfed by the Emperor's lightning. I thought it was clear it short circuited his life support systems. Without them his ventilator malfunctioned and accounts for his labored breathing in the film which is a wheezing sound compared to the normal rythm we hear throughout the rest of the trilogy. It's amazing he lasted as long as he did when Luke nearly got him on the shuttle.

Yeah Vader was basically dead after being fried by the Emperor and was living on borrowed time.

When he asked Luke to take off his helmet, Luke states “but you’ll die” and Vader responds “nothing can stop that now.”

I dont think we know the exact time of death but I think its heavily implied that Vader’s fully dead shortly after his helmet is removed. Even if it wasnt removed, he likely would have died on the trip back and its doubtful the rebels had the resources to keep Anakin alive.

There is a cool what if comic guys for RotJ though where Vader does survive and turns to the light, donning a white suit. In this version, he isnt shocked by Palpatine’s lightning though and Palpatine isnt killed yet which really means the story isnt over.

Star Wars Infinities: Return of the Jedi

Star Wars Infinities: Return of the Jedi is a 4-part comic sub-series of Star Wars Infinities. It was published from November 2003 to November 20, 2004, then compiled as a trade paperback on March 31, 2004. It deals with what could have happened following the chaos of failed negotiations between...

starwars.fandom.com

 

[Halliwax]

One thing that always pulled me out of ESB was the sound vaders helmet makes when he’s putting it on.. so goofy…

but like you said, the OT as well has some weird goofy moments

 

[Halliwax]

I also never noticed lukes tear roll down his face until I watched it in 4k on Disney plus

I love how all these years later I discover new things

never realize han out Luke inside the Taunton belly either..

 

[Psab keel]

The time of death is when he slumps down on the loading ramp of the shuttle. He breathes his last and falls back, dead. The fact that this is even a question is really puzzling to me.

I think there is a point to which we overanalyze these things. Movies are visual and Star Wars especially so. The fact that Lucas himself rightly said that you could watch them with John Williams score alone and still know exactly what's happening is a testament to how well the visuals tell the story. They even did a touring concert which I was lucky enough to attend where they did exactly that.

The fact that after 40 plus years these movies are still being studied and discussed at length only proves how rich the narrative was crafted. People tend to gloss over it due to it's youthful optimism and flash but these movies are classics for a reason. Though there does come a point where I wonder if we pick these things apart so much that it gets miopic. I'm all for the details but there are some instances where you just have to witness what happens on the screen and accept it at face value.