Origins of the ROTJ Vader helmets: JY thread continuation

[SithLord]

Did a member here make this measurement of the screen ROTJ reveal? The lower chin looks to be around 9.4-9.5cm, which I would like to confirm. The ruler is some distance from the chin but the way it is photographed it looks like he attempted to line up the camera to where the endpoint was.

 

[SithLord]

Is the funeral pyre helmet a new cast or one of the original ANH helmets?

That's a good point. We see that pyre ANH helmet at the end of ROTJ....so that would not be a reused ESB, would it. :love Thus, not all the helmets in ROTJ were recycled ESB, which provides more evidence that there was an ANH-type mold at that time used, as Brian said, to make castings.
Add to that the reveal castings that, as suggested, were likely pulled at the time of ROTJ, not ESB.

And, the pyre helmet is not an original ANH helmet...

 

[Davy Jones]

So now you've given up your theory about the ROTJ helmets being smaller than all the others and a your theory of a ROTJ specific mold exsisting and have moved right along to accepting that all ESB/ROTJ helmets came from the ANH style mold... :confused

If you think that the same mold was used for ESB and ROTJ (and presumably all at once for ESB and some helmets being repainted for ROTJ) how does that fit in with your "The ROTJ is much smaller than both ANH and ESB helmets" theory?

 

[Onigiri]

see...I knew bringing up the reveal would keep this going...lol

 

[SithLord]

So now you've given up your theory about the ROTJ helmets being smaller than all the others and a your theory of a ROTJ specific mold exsisting and have moved right along to accepting that all ESB/ROTJ helmets came from the ANH style mold... :confused

If you think that the same mold was used for ESB and ROTJ (and presumably all at once for ESB and some helmets being repainted for ROTJ) how does that fit in with your "The ROTJ is much smaller than both ANH and ESB helmets" theory?

Huh? Where did you get that idea from? Did I say whether the reveal was large or small? No. Boy, jumping the gun a little there. :sleep

 

[Davy Jones]

That's a good point. We see that pyre ANH helmet at the end of ROTJ....so that would not be a reused ESB, would it. :love Thus, not all the helmets in ROTJ were recycled ESB, which provides more evidence that there was an ANH-type mold at that time used, as Brian said, to make castings.
Add to that the reveal castings that, as suggested, were likely pulled at the time of ROTJ, not ESB.

This suggests you think the ANH style mold was used at the time of ROTJ to make the prye helmet and the reveal helmet. That would be contraditory to the theories I have heard from you where you asert that the ROTJ helmets came from a different mold and also your theory that they are smaller.

 

[lonepigeon]

Huh? Where did you get that idea from? Did I say whether the reveal was large or small? No. Boy, jumping the gun a little there. :sleep

You've been saying all the ROTJ's were small.
Now you're saying that they're from the same ANH mold as the ESB's (which is what everyone has been saying and you've been disputing).

Just arguing for the sake of arguing. :rolleyes

 

[TKDUEUNO]

Just a question from someone who never moulded anything:

can a mold shrink a bit in six years or would it stay exactly the same?

 

[SithLord]

Gino seemed to have a problem before with some of the differences I pointed out between the ESB and the ROTJ. For example, the front right cheek face of the ROTJ mask has a thicker "lower lip" (half-moon shape) than ESB/ANH. The original ROTJ that Gino showed before has it as well as the GH ROTJ. If the ROTJ are all unique, why would the GH ROTJ be identical in that regard unless it originated from that particular casting shown, but that is unlikely given the number of ROTJ masks there were in the production. That thicker area is also seen onscreen. The reveal has it as well but it is sharpened a bit more. So if these came from ESB they would have to be each individually modified, possibly by sanding down the front face of that cheek...a lot of work.

Also the nosebridge on the ROTJ is narrower than ESB/ANH...uniquely so actually. One sees the narrower nosebridge on the original CIV ROTJ mask, onscreen on the stunt ROTJ, and although not shown the reveal has it too. Looks like they went through a lot of trouble to make that one feature look the same, whether to make it more symmetrical, to get rid of roughness from the sides of the bridge, or whatever reason. But it is common to the ROTJ castings, and not seen on ANH/ESB.

So the ROTJ just didn't pop out of an ANH mold. They underwent extensive changes, yet surprisingly similar ones for each helmet if Gino's theory were true.

 

[Davy Jones]

OMG Thomas.
The "thicker area" is clearly the result of painting at nothing more. Look at the red line you have drawn on "GH ROTJ" and then look where you have made the bottom line of the width bracket.
Then look above that bottom of the width bracket to see the actual crease in the helmet. That is where your bracket should end and I bet you'll find it very similar to the other helmets in your compare.
The only difference between the helmets in the top 3 compares is the painting in that area. They went outside the lines on the GH ROTJ.

 

[SithLord]

This suggests you think the ANH style mold was used at the time of ROTJ to make the prye helmet and the reveal helmet. That would be contraditory to the theories I have heard from you where you asert that the ROTJ helmets came from a different mold and also your theory that they are smaller.

Come on guys. What I've said all along was congruent to what Brian Muir was suggesting namely that there was a ROTJ-specific mold. They could have molded any mask from any period of time between ANH and ROTJ. We know nothing about that mold, which is what I stated before. If Brian's ROTJ helmet represents a raw state before changes were made, that's a possibility. The pyre helmet isn't original, but it might have something in common with Brian's helmet. But it could also just be a leftover touring ANH helmet since it has the same attachment mechanism as the ESB movie poster ANH helmet, dating it to well before ROTJ. Ok? You guys are so quick to try to figure in a contradiction to what I say. :unsure

 

[KaanE]

1st, the camera angle can produce an awesome distorsion, also the paint, light, etc.

2nd, the same mould can produce 1000 diferent helmets. Look at the Tim Allen's 300 helmets, they all come from the same mould, all are diferent.

 

[SithLord]

OMG Thomas.
The "thicker area" is clearly the result of painting at nothing more. Look at the red line you have drawn on "GH ROTJ" and then look above it to see the actual crease in the helmet. The only difference between the helmets in the top 3 compares is the painting in that area. They went outside the lines on the GH ROTJ.

No it is an edge, you see the same thing on an unpainted GH ROTJ. OMG is right.

 

[Davy Jones]

Please show me this area on an unpainted GH ROTJ and compare it to the picture you just posted of the painted one.

 

[SithLord]

Just a question from someone who never moulded anything:

can a mold shrink a bit in six years or would it stay exactly the same?

Depending on how it is stored and the storage conditions (temperature/humidity) it could easily last six years or only six months before shrinking. It also depends on the type of mold material. I've seen noticeable changes (that is visible to the naked eye and confirmed through measurement) in castings coming from molds that were only a few months old on account of shrinkage.

 

[Davy Jones]

My turn to do a comparison.

 

[TKDUEUNO]

Depending on how it is stored and the storage conditions (temperature/humidity) it could easily last six years or only six months before shrinking. It also depends on the type of mold material. I've seen noticeable changes (that is visible to the naked eye and confirmed through measurement) in castings coming from molds that were only a few months old on account of shrinkage.

Well, so if a shrinked ANH mold was used to produce the ROTJ helmets, that would explain the size differences you noticed, right?

 

[SithLord]

Well, so if a shrinked ANH mold was used to produce the ROTJ helmets, that would explain the size differences you noticed, right?

Yes.

So the reason I wanted to confirm the measurement from the original reveal mask chin area is that it is on par with ROTJ replicas. If it is larger then fine as well...I wouldn't expect it to be the same size as a replica.

Here's another comparison as requested....I see what you mean but either the front cheek is taken down or the side of the mouth is sanded down...either way that half-moon shape is deeper. You want to look at the outside edge of that shape, where the line of the front face of the cheek meets the top of the upper tusk tube. I am limited by not having a GH ROTJ, but the feature is there.

And here it is clear as day on the original ROTJ reveal...

EDIT: and back to that original ROTJ Gino showed...

Whew! Two down, fifty more to go. :lol

 

[Too Much Garlic]

That's a good point. We see that pyre ANH helmet at the end of ROTJ....so that would not be a reused ESB, would it. :love Thus, not all the helmets in ROTJ were recycled ESB, which provides more evidence that there was an ANH-type mold at that time used, as Brian said, to make castings.
Add to that the reveal castings that, as suggested, were likely pulled at the time of ROTJ, not ESB.

And, the pyre helmet is not an original ANH helmet...

It could also be the ANH style ESB Hoth helmet!? Has anyone ever found that particular helmet? Or was that turned into just a regular ESB?

 

[SithLord]

1st, the camera angle can produce an awesome distorsion, also the paint, light, etc.

2nd, the same mould can produce 1000 diferent helmets. Look at the Tim Allen's 300 helmets, they all come from the same mould, all are diferent.

300 of what? Fiberglass Darth Vader helmets? I'm not familiar with Tim Allen, sorry.

If the artisan is skilled and the mold integrity holds up then there shouldn't be variability in complex shapes such as that. How many runs of Vader helmets have we seen and the results are usually consistent (and measurably so).