MCU mutants

[Too Much Garlic]

I couldn't find another thread about this, but I have heard a lot about the new MCU mutants and that they are going to race bend Xavier and Magneto and perhaps even Wolverine. My question is WHY when they have a plethora of mutant characters to chose from without having to piss all over an established character. I understand they feel they need Xavier, Magneto and Wolverine to pull in the audience, but they really don't. Leave those characters and introduce new ones... or... if you want to use someone already established in the movies, use Laura, X-23, and her fellow mutant friends from the movie Logan. Endgame opened up for the multiverse, so they can easily just use them and have them escape their own timeline into the MCU timeline.

Reason I'm saying this is that the sad thing about the movie Logan is that it will be the one and only time we will ever see Dafne Keen playing Laura. But if the MCU is clever, they will just use those characters from Logan and pull them over into the MCU in some way. You don't need Xavier or Magneto to have an X-Men story... and if you absolutely want a Wolverine character, then you already have that through Laura.

I just want to see more of Dafne Keen as X-23. And the MCU is the only way. And that way they don't have to race bend or gender bend already established characters to suit their diversity agenda... the new mutants from Logan ARE already diverse. Bring them into the MCU and thrive and if the Martin Luther King Jr vs Malcolm X dynamic is needed... you still don't need Xavier or Magneto... you can easily give that dynamic to the new mutants as it would make sense that some would have the one view and others might take the other due to their experiences.

 

[Cephus]

I've given up on the MCU entirely. I just don't care what they do so long as Disney is in charge.

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

Too Much Garlic, heard from where? I have seen no official announcements, and, near as I know, they wouldn't be starting to trickle in until later in Phase 4, anyway. Feige and the various creatives are focusing on Black Widow, Guardians 3, Black Panther and Doctor Strange 2, and figuring out the MCU version of the Fantastic Four. I imagine he/they might be tossing around some ideas, but I feel like they, so far, haven't strayed too far from source material in making the films. A bit of a mash-up between the original Marvel Universe and the Marvel Ultimate Universe. The only biggies of this sort I can think of off the top of my head are Mar-Vell being a woman and Nick Fury being black (and not a WWII veteran) -- and that second one is from the Ultimate comics anyway, so not exactly a change.

There are non-white-guy telepaths and magnetic-field-manipulators in the source material. And X23 is already pretty much a female latina Wolverine, to way oversimplify. So there isn't really any gender/race-flopping required to change things up. But. A lot of thought needs to go into it. They could change up Tony's origin from VietNam to Afghanistan, because war... war never changes. They could handwave Hank Pym's Ant-Man back to the Cold War and have him start out older and semi-retired. Cap went on ice at the end of WWII and could have woken up anywhen. But the mutants originally were supposed to be super-rare until atomic testing started happening. I really like the later Earth X not-quite-retcon that tied everything together, but Kevin would have had to have had that in mind when starting to plot out the actual MCU after Iron Man was a surprise hit.

So the two basic approaches I could see them taking are:

1) Mutants were super-rare, but have started happening at a greater rate. Charles Xavier, Moira Mactaggart, Eric Lensherr, and Gabrielle Haller are researching this phenomenon. They have tracked a young nascent mutant down, stuff happens, and Charles and Eric are forced to reveal that they, too, are mutants. Public revelation, hate and fear, yadda yadda. Kinda like First Class, but not set in the '60s.

2) Mutants are only now starting to pop up, as children born after all the cosmic stuff started happening (Asgardian energies in New Mexico, the Space Stone throwing off gamma radiation all over New York when the Chitauri invaded, whatever that was that Ego seeded in Earth that started "blooming" suddenly) all start hitting puberty. No Professor X or Magneto.

I prefer the former, as a modified version of the Earth X Grand Unified Theory works with it. That is, many modern humans carry the X-Factor gene. Just like the genes that granted immunity to the Plague. If both parents passed it to you, you wouldn't get sick. If one parent passed it to you, you'd get sick, but recover. If neither parent passed it to you... I got some bad news for you. Same here -- a double dose of the X-Factor gene and you manifest powers spontaneously. One instance, and you need some external stimulus to trigger it. None and you're a normie.

All this to say, they've got a lot of raw material to work with. They can also do such fantastic digital de-aging and face-mapping that I'd want Hugh Jackman to keep playing a forever-young Wolverine -- and Dafne back as X23, and Ryan Reynolds as Deadpool. There's so much potential and a plethora of characters to choose from without needing to do stupid stuff (I'm looking at you, X3). If they want a character with a particular power or trait, you can be pretty sure there's one already in the comics to use as a basis. Why I asked for your source. There are already #fakefanboys bitching about "making a female Hulk as more of this SJW ********" -- apparently oblivious to She-Hulk having been around since 19-frikkin'-80. I wouldn't put it past them to be spreading this (good term for fertilizer) as a sort of pre-emptive, anticipatory outrage at something that may or may not even ever be a thing...

 

[JoeG]

I really like the later Earth X not-quite-retcon that tied everything together, but Kevin would have had to have had that in mind when starting to plot out the actual MCU after Iron Man was a surprise hit.

Did you see the recently released alternate take of when Nick Fury was introduced in the stinger of Iron Man? Fury make reference to Banner, mutants, and Spider-Man. All of this way before they had secured deals to get these characters in the films. So, I'd say its safe to say its something Feige has been hoping for a long time. And that means he may have already had ideas on how to do it, he just needed the right deals in place to make it happen.

As for the gender\race swapping, yeah gonna call BS on that. No other reliable source is reporting that rumor. Sounds way too made up to get clicks and get the usual reactionary types all riled up over nothing.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

Must admit I've only heard the race-swap thing mentioned on youtube by people referencing articles. Haven't checked out the actual articles, so unsure whether they actually comes from somewhat reliable outlets.

The issue I heard with She-Hulk was that people mentioned rumors that she would be disconnected from her origin of having been infected by Bruce in a blood transfusion. Again... may be the same sources that report the race/gender swap thing for the X-Men. Though, besides that issue... my main issue was that I thought it would be kinda stupid of the MCU if they had to retreat the same ground as Fox did with the same characters just with new actors and actresses... instead of just using that as a stepping stone and use the multiverse and infinity stone angle to explain the rise of mutants perhaps from another time line. I really want to see Dafne Keen continue the role of X-23.

 

[JoeG]

Once Marvel Studios finally brings mutants into the MCU, I would bet they'll steer clear of anything done by Fox. Their timeline was so screwed up and the last 2 X movies so poorly received, why would they want any connection to that? Its better to start from scratch. Plus, if the rumors are true, we may see a mutant in Black Panther 2.

 

[xl97]

Are they NOT claiming Scarlet Witch (& Quicksilver) as mutants any longer??

 

[SethS]

2) Mutants are only now starting to pop up, as children born after all the cosmic stuff started happening (Asgardian energies in New Mexico, the Space Stone throwing off gamma radiation all over New York when the Chitauri invaded, whatever that was that Ego seeded in Earth that started "blooming" suddenly) all start hitting puberty. No Professor X or Magneto.

I always assumed it would be something like this. Because...

Are they NOT claiming Scarlet Witch (& Quicksilver) as mutants any longer??

They couldn't make them mutants in the MCU, so they were altered by Chitauri/Thanos tech.

I like the idea of Xavier having kept a low profile to protect mutants,. who number very few. It might even be cool to see some sort of flashback in the eventual MCU X-Men movie where we can see the "first class" watching the events of The NY Incident on TV and wanting to go help. Xavier says no-- but he sees costumed, powered people saving the world, so he realizes if he brands mutants as superheroes, the world will accept them.

And yeah-- the alien tech causes a baby boom of mutants of sorts.

It's going to be awhile before we get MCU X-Men. They really need to wait for the perfect casting of Jackman and Stewart to fade from public consciousness, and the terrible x-film that came out THIS YEAR.

 

[Solo4114]

On the point of race/gender flipping...honestly, it doesn't really matter a ton for the characters that they stay white dudes if that's what they are. Or that they stay white at all if that's what they are in the comics.

Don't believe me?

Sam Jackson wants to motherfucking chat with you about motherfucking Nick Fury. And who cares if Zendaya is playing Mary Jane Watson? Were these characters "intrinsically" white? Nah. It doesn't alter who they are as characters because their race isn't essential to their identity. Now, for a romantic interest like Mary Jane, yeah, it's a little important that she remain a woman -- unless you want to make Spider-Man gay, in which case, whatever. Go for it. I don't care. It's not going to detract from my enjoyment of the story otherwise.

I used to get bent out of shape about this to the extent that it seemed like crass tokenism. But I have to be honest, after having seen the impact of films like Black Panther, Wonder Woman, and Captain Marvel on audiences that have hitherto not been nearly as well represented in this type of fiction, I think representation matters more. As long as they do a good job with the story, none of that stuff really matters a ton. There will still be plenty of white dude heroes to enjoy, even if a few of them become Latinx women or whatever.

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

And who cares if Zendaya is playing Mary Jane Watson?

Well, she isn't anyway, so...

I used to get bent out of shape about this to the extent that it seemed like crass tokenism. But I have to be honest, after having seen the impact of films like Black Panther, Wonder Woman, and Captain Marvel on audiences that have hitherto not been nearly as well represented in this type of fiction, I think representation matters more. As long as they do a good job with the story, none of that stuff really matters a ton. There will still be plenty of white dude heroes to enjoy, even if a few of them become Latinx women or whatever.

I am, frankly, really looking forward to Ms. Marvel on Disney+. I think Kamala Khan is awesome. And an integral part of her character is being a Pakistani-American Muslim with strict parents. I have wished since the first X-Men movie that they'd cast a Jewish girl as Kitty Pryde. And hoo, boy, they really shoulda cast Iman as Storm. I'd believe she was an African weather goddess! Others also, like Roberto da Costa, Rahne Sinclair, or Jubilee, their ethnicityis an important part of who they are.

Others are more interchangeable. I'd've been fine with FantFourStic making the entire Storm family African-American. They way they did it, it came off like they wanted to be woke, but couldn't deal with the idea of a white character dating a black character. Characters like Kurt Wagner, it especially doesn't matter because he's blue and fuzzy (hey, Kevin, pay attention to that second characteristic -- Fox missed that part).

And on the third hand, in a lot of cases Marvel already did it. Largely with Spider People. Female Spider-Man? At least three times over. Black? Yup. Latinx? Yup. Asian? Yup. Gay? Yup. And so on and so on. There have been lady Iron Men, black Iron Men, black lady Iron Men... Odin made Thor a woman to teach him some perspective, but there's also Jane, who got the powers of Thor -- but I refuse to call her Lady Thor. She's still Jane, dammit, just with the powers of Thor. So they don't really need to reinvent the wheel -- odds are it was already done in the comics, quite possibly over a quarter-century ago.

 

[Solo4114]

Well, she isn't anyway, so...

Ok, fine, she's playing "MJ." Same difference.

I am, frankly, really looking forward to Ms. Marvel on Disney+. I think Kamala Khan is awesome. And an integral part of her character is being a Pakistani-American Muslim with strict parents. I have wished since the first X-Men movie that they'd cast a Jewish girl as Kitty Pryde. And hoo, boy, they really shoulda cast Iman as Storm. I'd believe she was an African weather goddess! Others also, like Roberto da Costa, Rahne Sinclair, or Jubilee, their ethnicityis an important part of who they are.

Others are more interchangeable. I'd've been fine with FantFourStic making the entire Storm family African-American. They way they did it, it came off like they wanted to be woke, but couldn't deal with the idea of a white character dating a black character. Characters like Kurt Wagner, it especially doesn't matter because he's blue and fuzzy (hey, Kevin, pay attention to that second characteristic -- Fox missed that part).

And on the third hand, in a lot of cases Marvel already did it. Largely with Spider People. Female Spider-Man? At least three times over. Black? Yup. Latinx? Yup. Asian? Yup. Gay? Yup. And so on and so on. There have been lady Iron Men, black Iron Men, black lady Iron Men... Odin made Thor a woman to teach him some perspective, but there's also Jane, who got the powers of Thor -- but I refuse to call her Lady Thor. She's still Jane, dammit, just with the powers of Thor. So they don't really need to reinvent the wheel -- odds are it was already done in the comics, quite possibly over a quarter-century ago.

Right. My point is that, if the character's race is not intrinsic to them, if it's not a necessary part of their personality, then who cares who plays them? In other cases, the character's race is important. You can't have Thunderbird II/Warpath/Jason Proudstar and have him be played by a Swede. You can't have Kamala Khan played by some redheaded white kid. Black Panther played by an east Asian guy would be...a little incongruous, putting it mildly.

But comics have existed in the form we know for about 70 years now, and in that time, white folks have tended to be the "default" when most of the characters were created. Doesn't mean it has to stay that way now. The entire Fantastic Four could be literally any race. You could keep them white, but you don't HAVE to. It doesn't really change the core characters much if you alter that aspect of who they are. Although, I suppose Ben Grimm may need to be Jewish, but he's also an orange rock dude, and at least when I was reading the comics, his Jewish identity was never really touched on.

 

[Cephus]

Sam Jackson wants to motherfucking chat with you about motherfucking Nick Fury. And who cares if Zendaya is playing Mary Jane Watson? Were these characters "intrinsically" white? Nah. It doesn't alter who they are as characters because their race isn't essential to their identity. Now, for a romantic interest like Mary Jane, yeah, it's a little important that she remain a woman -- unless you want to make Spider-Man gay, in which case, whatever. Go for it. I don't care. It's not going to detract from my enjoyment of the story otherwise.

I honestly don't give a crap, but the only reason Samuel L. Jackson got to play Nick Fury is because in the Ultimate universe, they designed it, on purpose, to look like him and he made them guarantee that if he was ever in a movie, he got to play the part. But so long as you're putting the best actor or actress in the part without regard for their skin color, I'm fine with it. I don't care. It's when you're making a political statement with your hiring decisions that I sign out.

 

[drcraig13]

OK while Dan and I agree on many many things I am going to speak up on this. Magneto is a Holocaust survivor. He saw as a child what happened to his family and friends as Jews. What makes him such an interesting character is that fact that he truly believes he is not the bad guy. That he sees humans trying to exterminate the mutants just as the Nazi's tried to exterminate the Jews. Also the vast majority of Jews that were in Germany, Poland ect. were in fact Ashkenazic Jews not Sephardic. Us Ashkenazic Jews are predominately white. Sorry just a fact. So as a Jew I in this case would take exception to race bending Magneto. That does not fit the character or his backstory.

 

[xl97]

I understand diversity.. (truly)..
....and I get WHY (larger target audience.... people feeling like they 'belong'.....acceptable reality when people see characters they can identify with..etc)

but changing established characters.... NO THANK YOU!

There are plenty of 'minority' characters.. or characters with diverse backgrounds and ethnicity...... build them up.

How would the 'people' feel if established characters of ethnicity were charged to be white? (for no reason)..

Offended? Angered? (I bet)

All this is going to do is eventually build up resentment. I dont see any positive from this type of action.

 

[Cephus]

There is nothing positive to come of is, and as xl97 correctly says, if they took a black character and made them white, people would get pissed. Look at what happens when they take an Asian character and have them played by a white actor. People crap themselves. But nobody cares about offending white people. It's a new Olympic sport.

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

Ok, fine, she's playing "MJ." Same difference.

Nope. Not same difference. Michelle Jones is not supposed to be Mary Jane Watson in any way -- just evoke that relationship.

Look at what happens when they take an Asian character and have them played by a white actor. People crap themselves.

I've seen this happen a few times, but you seem to be referring to something specific...

 

[Too Much Garlic]

I don't mind Sam Jackson as Nick Fury. I didn't mind Michael Clarke Duncan as Wilson Fisk, as he was the best actor at the time to portray that role, which Vincent D'Onofrio has later shown he was the best for when they made the TV-show.

Some characters can be whatever the best actor or actress is available at the time... while others can't. It's a fine line. Sometimes I don't mind. Other times I mind. It kinda depends on how it is done and what the mindset behind the change is. If it is just to fill a quota then I find it in poor taste. And maybe I'm just too attached to the X-Men characters, as they were my favorite comic book after Spider-Man, when I was growing up. I even wrote a letter to Stan Lee when he visited Denmark once and even got a reply back + a little action figure. Pretty cool. I wrote because I was sad that X-Men had been discontinued here... and a few years later they brought the comic back, but they had jumped forward a whole lot, and it was hard to get back into it again. Incidentally, the comic was called Projekt-X here, so if anyone has any issues with the use of the word "X-Men" in this day and age, then there is precedent for another title. Though... even that is kinda silly in my view.

If you change the races of Xavier and Magneto and make them black... maybe they'll get too close to the real life people that inspired their conflict... but maybe that can be a good thing!? But it will certainly change a lot of things. And yes, I know people don't think the race is important... but if you make Xavier black... then he will have a completely different back story than if he was white - the whole thing about him is that he's hiding in the open... because he's white he probably didn't have to grow up experiencing oppression, racism, even aggression... and lived in a world where he indeed benefitted from being white (you can call it white privilege or whatever - the fact of the matter is that his race has had an impact on what he could do - though unsure whether it would be applicable today, as it was then) and his powers made him kinda arrogant at first until he learned harsh life lessons. Maybe I don't know much, and maybe it would be very different now than it was previously, but there actually are things to consider and whether they will change a character. That's what Fox didn't understand with Wolverine. They made him into this weird kind of savior type, and basically the same type of character before the adamantium experiment as he somewhat was after. I haven't read much of the Weapon X stuff and I'm sure, like with all other back-stories, it may have changed over the years, but I always got the feeling he wasn't a pleasant person back them. NOT a savior of mutants, but rather more like a selfish mercenary, where the experiment pushed him into oblivion and first through joining Xavier he became a better person.

The thing just is that Fox - even though they made some terrible movies - have already gone over the Xavier/Magneto dynamic. It would be so much better to do something new and with new characters. Go further with the prejudice... maybe them the new target for insecure and hateful people to band together over to put down to make themselves feel superior and better than others. I always felt that they skirted around that subject way too much in the Fox movies... even to the point where they sorta fixed it way too quickly... and it being "completely fixed" which we all know won't even happen in real life - even if they got accepted and acknowledged, there would still be people hating on them.

If they change a character's race, then they can also change their sex. I have no issue with that in some instances. It all depends on the reason behind the choice...

 

[Cephus]

I've seen this happen a few times, but you seem to be referring to something specific...

No, nothing really specific, it's just come up a couple of times in the last several years, especially in adaptations of Japanese properties, where people freaked out because the best actor or actress for the role just so happened to be white. But if the character had been originally white and the best actor just so happened to be black, they'd hail it as an advancement in diversity or some such politically correct BS like that.

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

I'm still furious at the #fakefans angry at the casting of Scarlett Johannsson as Major in Ghost in the Shell when the character in the original manga/anime was Caucasian (or, rather, her shell was) and the creator of the whole damn thing said she was perfect for the role.

 

[Axlotl]

Too Much Garlic : - I just popped in to say I'm 100% with you:
More Dafne Keen as X-23!!!
If MCU drops this ball, I will riot.

I've also been patiently waiting for a skinny awkward goofy jewish Kitty Pride since, what... 2000?
How do they keep getting her so wrong??? There were, like, 20 years worth of Kitty comics already back then!
Hey, wait a minute... They got Rogue completely wrong, too!
It's easier to count who they got right: Professor X, Magneto, Wolverine, and Cyclops.
Now I'm just rambling... I'll see myself out...