Axanar - Crowdfunded 'Star Trek' Movie Draws Lawsuit from Paramount, CBS
- Thread starter mkstewartesq
- Start date
KrangPrime
Master Member
I can't help but wonder if Paramount -
A) Did it just to show copyright people 'look, we're defending our right....'
or B)Did it as a publicity stunt to get people talking about the new series, and they really where working hand in hand on the back end.
All for a good will project to try and boost up Beyond ticket sales...
Either way, if it's the latter, take note feigbusters. that's how you build up fan good will. or, maybe it's just the cynic in me that refuses to belive this wasn't all a ploy somehow
and the axanar people didn't just get really lucky.
A) Did it just to show copyright people 'look, we're defending our right....'
or B)Did it as a publicity stunt to get people talking about the new series, and they really where working hand in hand on the back end.
All for a good will project to try and boost up Beyond ticket sales...
Either way, if it's the latter, take note feigbusters. that's how you build up fan good will. or, maybe it's just the cynic in me that refuses to belive this wasn't all a ploy somehow
and the axanar people didn't just get really lucky.
asalaw
Sr Member
Yup. There is no official announcement at all.
And the two publications of record in Hollywood, Variety and The Hollywood Reporter, have been quiet. If it were true, the studios certainly would have put out a press release which those two pubs would have snapped up. Even Deadline Hollywood, which is relatively reputable but runs rumors all the time, is only reporting this as Abrams claiming that he and Lin have pressured the studio into dropping the suit. The rest is all garbage from clickbait sites that will run anything.
This is a giant red flag.
Why is this happening, then? I can think of three possible theories that seem to fit the facts:
- Maybe Abrams and Lin are hoping to embarrass Paramount and CBS into dropping the suit. I doubt it would work, so I'm skeptical about this one.
- But it is working very well at endearing fans -- to Lin and Abrams. Both of them would benefit financially from being seen by studios as "fan-friendly." Publicity stunts like that are very common.
- It's also great for Paramount, since fans who love Lin for "standing up" to the big bad studios will flock to see ST: Beyond to show their support. Great way to kill any fan boycots before they even start. (See "publicity stunt" above.)
- EDIT -- I'd totally forgotten that Abrams is producer on Beyond. (See "publicity stunt" below.)
Many people just assume that where there's smoke, there's fire, without regard to who is running the story or whether those sites have any standards. In the old days, seeing something in print was enough to get tongues wagging. It didn't matter if it was a tabloid; remember Bat Baby? But back then there was no Google.
Today there's just no excuse. It took me less than two minutes on Google to figure out that this whole kerfuffle is total BS. I don't own any special BS detection gear. Anybody can do it. But they don't. More's the pity.
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asalaw
Sr Member
Heeeeeeeeyyyyy....
The new trailer for ST: Beyond has just been released! Amazing timing, eh? What are the odds?
What's your favorite cynical publicity stunt?
The new trailer for ST: Beyond has just been released! Amazing timing, eh? What are the odds?
What's your favorite cynical publicity stunt?
I think we cynics need to yell louder. I'm pretty cynical about our chances, though.
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I would have thought an official notice of some sort would be up by now.
asalaw
Sr Member
There is, much to my surprise. This from 1701 News:
It's a stretch to say they're doing it because judges like it -- it's nice to show the court a good-faith effort to come to terms, but every plaintiff is entitled to his day in court. It's also true that trials are very costly, but expensive trials are held every day, especially in corporate IP law, where parties are often reluctant to settle precisely because they don't want to appear to dilute their rights. Sometimes, though, it's to everyone's advantage to settle. Who knows?
I'm not seeing how Paramount and CBS come out winners in this regarding their long-term IP interests. Unless the settlement turns out to be harsh for Axanar (such as agreeing to dismantle their studio business), I'm left to wonder how they prevent Son of Axanar in a couple of years.
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BlobVanDam
Sr Member
I feel much better with the distinction made between dropping the case, and settling the case, because that's an important difference. This is also better PR than suing the crap out of them (which they have every right to do, and would win), and this will make it clear than CBS/Paramount isn't out to shut down fan films, only to make sure people play by the rules, which until now have been unwritten but lenient enough to not affect most fan films until this incident. I hope these fan film guidelines are made public, rather than the current situation that has left many people concerned.
True. But we also didn't really need firm guidelines because we had common sense guidelines based on suggestions from the IP holder in the past. It's when people started veering off these common sense guidelines that we've had trouble. Axanar should have known better. Other fan projects HAVE gotten shut down before, they were by no means the first.
Solo4114
Master Member
I...really don't get why Paramount is settling this, except for perhaps PR reasons right around when a new Trek film and series are being released. Even so, I don't get why they'd back off of this. It really does seem like it'll just encourage other people to try the same thing.
asalaw
Sr Member
I'm right with you. But let's see what Axanar "agrees" to do to get the studios off their back. Maybe they'll still get a huge spanking, but self-administered.
I really wish they would release something directly from the studio's lawyers and/or PR people about it. Something official. Not something second-hand which is all that is being reported. I can find a lot of 'sources from' or 'the studio says' but nothing directly FROM them.
I also think it's pretty ridiculous that people claim the studio is 'worried' about the new movie not doing well so that's their motivation. That's the most ridiculous part about this whole thing. They aren't worried about a two million dollar movie competing with theirs, especially when the movie in question hasn't even been started. There's no competition, I wish people would stop acting like there is. No matter how good you are or how long you work, you'd never be able to start and then finish a feature length movie that is almost entirely CGI and then release it in less than two months. Especially when one of the many people you've pissed off is your VFX guy.
I also think it's pretty ridiculous that people claim the studio is 'worried' about the new movie not doing well so that's their motivation. That's the most ridiculous part about this whole thing. They aren't worried about a two million dollar movie competing with theirs, especially when the movie in question hasn't even been started. There's no competition, I wish people would stop acting like there is. No matter how good you are or how long you work, you'd never be able to start and then finish a feature length movie that is almost entirely CGI and then release it in less than two months. Especially when one of the many people you've pissed off is your VFX guy.
mkstewartesq
Sr Member
Here’s my thinking on it. However well-intentioned, JJ kind of put the studio’s back up against the wall in a big way with his public statement. I don’t think he intended to but he did. And the studio’s mobility is now very limited- - and there’s no way they are going to come out and say he misspoke or was wrong because the last thing they want to do is alienate JJ, especially after the blockbuster year he had.
To wit; JJ never said CBS/Paramount was “dropping the suit”. He just said it would “go away”” And he never said Axanar specifically would be allowed to be made; he just stated that generally fans would be allowed to make movies. His quote, to be precise, was
However, the Axafans and even the general media started putting words in his mouth and proclaimed that JJ said that the lawsuit will be “dropped” and “Axanar will be made”.
Most of us know there is a huge difference between “dropping” a suit and “settling” a suit. “Dropping” means the plaintiff basically says “whoops - I’ll withdraw my complaint and let’s pretend I never filed it.” “Settled” means the parties negotiate some agreement on terms to resolve their grievances and hopefully avoid the expense of trial and the risk of liability that comes with it.
CBS’ own statement says only “We are pleased to confirm we are in settlement discussions”. They do not say they are dropping the suit, and the fact that they are still using the word “settle” means that CBS is still viewing their case as strong enough that they expect to exact some concessions from Axanar in exchange for eventually dismissing the complaint. We don’t know what those concessions will be – but this leaves open the possibility that Axanar will not agree to them, and there will be no settlement. (For example, CBS could say – and it would be consistent with JJ’s statement – that, while fans generally get to keep creating fan-films, Axanar doesn’t because they went too far into the “bootleg cottage industry.” Or they could say Axanar can be made, but it now needs to be a 20-minute film, and no feature-length fan films will be permitted.)
And you know what – the fact that CBS is in “settlement talks” with Axanar is nothing new or unusual – because both parties were ordered by the court (as are all litigants are in federal court) in May to engage in settlement discussions as part of the trial schedule. Even if JJ or Justin Lin had never said “boo”, the parties would still be in court-ordered settlement discussions today.
And that’s where JJ unwittingly screwed the studios. Though everything he says is “loosey-goosey layman talk”, it’s still absolutely consistent with CBS redoubling its efforts to force Axanar to settle rather than go to trial. But because it could also be construed as “me and Justin got CBS to agree to drop the suit”, CBS’ hands are really tied now and JJ unwittingly handed a lot of leverage to Axanar. If CBS makes a demand Axanar doesn’t like, Axanar just says “nope – let’s go to trial”. And if CBS goes to trial,10,000 Axanar donors and countless otherwise-reputable website who mis-reported that the suit was being dropped will squeal that “CBS lied” or “CBS betrayed JJ.”
Even Axanar’s lawyers are playing on this. Axanar filed its Answer today, and they (disingenuously) specifically cite JJ’s statement that “the lawsuit will be going away” as some sort of evidence that the lawsuit was supposed to have been dropped already.
Which just means that, if CBS continues to press what is an overwhelmingly good case in their favor, they are going to be put between a real rock and hard place – press for their rights (and make one of their most valued assets, JJ Abrams, look like an ill-informed fool) or give in to avoid damaging their relationship with one of the most profitable directors of the past few years?
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Solo4114
Master Member
Eh, I honestly don't know that the worth of JJ outweighs the worth of the franchise IP itself. JJ's one guy. One very profitable guy, but right now he's more just lending his "brand" to the films as a producer than directing them or guiding them creatively. I also really doubt he'd bite the hand that feeds him intentionally.
So, if Paramount really wanted to, they could come out and say that JJ misspoke and that, while the parties were in court ordered settlement talks the same as in any lawsuit in this jurisdiction, no final decisions had been made and the parties were exploring their options as amicably as possible.
And if Axanar wanted to say "Nope. Let's go to trial," I think Paramount...probably wouldn't care, depending on what Axanar was asking for.
Let me put this another way.
I don't think CBS/Para can give Axanar what it wants, which is the ability to make and release this film without having to pay anything to use the Trek IP. I also don't think CBS/Para will want to entertain making the work a licensed one, particularly given HOW the license was obtained, and what it'd mean in the future. Kind of along the "we don't negotiate with terrorists" angle. So...what can they offer to sweeten the deal, other than "We will accept injunctive relief only. You don't have to pay damages or our attorneys' fees." Which, from my perspective, would be a HUGE FREAKING WIN for Axanar, but I doubt they'll see it that way.
Basically, the law suit would then "go away," and CBS/Para could allow other fan films to proceed who were not as boneheaded as Axanar was, while still shutting Axanar down.
But if Axanar wants to dig its heels in and be allowed to make the film, and/or distribute it, and/or sell it? If I'm CBS/Para, my response is simple:
"F--- that. We'll see you in court."
So, if Paramount really wanted to, they could come out and say that JJ misspoke and that, while the parties were in court ordered settlement talks the same as in any lawsuit in this jurisdiction, no final decisions had been made and the parties were exploring their options as amicably as possible.
And if Axanar wanted to say "Nope. Let's go to trial," I think Paramount...probably wouldn't care, depending on what Axanar was asking for.
Let me put this another way.
I don't think CBS/Para can give Axanar what it wants, which is the ability to make and release this film without having to pay anything to use the Trek IP. I also don't think CBS/Para will want to entertain making the work a licensed one, particularly given HOW the license was obtained, and what it'd mean in the future. Kind of along the "we don't negotiate with terrorists" angle. So...what can they offer to sweeten the deal, other than "We will accept injunctive relief only. You don't have to pay damages or our attorneys' fees." Which, from my perspective, would be a HUGE FREAKING WIN for Axanar, but I doubt they'll see it that way.
Basically, the law suit would then "go away," and CBS/Para could allow other fan films to proceed who were not as boneheaded as Axanar was, while still shutting Axanar down.
But if Axanar wants to dig its heels in and be allowed to make the film, and/or distribute it, and/or sell it? If I'm CBS/Para, my response is simple:
"F--- that. We'll see you in court."
cboath
Master Member
I'm guessing we'll just get a PR saying a confidential settlement was reached and all parties are happy and free to go about their own business (with the flick getting made). That way, if they caved, no one ever knows and they protected the TM and if they made them pay through the nose, no one ever knows either.
I realize it's not that cut and dried, but if I were in charge - the rules would be pretty simple:
1. Don't compete with my product. You, do you get shut down.
2. See rule one.
End of story.
I realize it's not that cut and dried, but if I were in charge - the rules would be pretty simple:
1. Don't compete with my product. You, do you get shut down.
2. See rule one.
End of story.
asalaw
Sr Member
Oh? Hadn't heard that. Please, dish.
Hmmm... hadn't thought of that. My first impression was that he'd spoken out of turn, but I assumed when the trailer and poster dropped that the whole thing had been a stunt.
You sir, are pretty not lame with the thinky stuff. Please teach me your evil litigalogical clairvoyance.
True, but big corps think quarterly, sometimes yearly, and that has a way of eclipsing the long-term stuff. JJ's value is as right-now-this-quarter as it gets. My point being, don't underestimate the stomach acid churning in the executive suites right now.
Me neither. Those options -- even the injuctive-relief-only one -- amount to the studios giving away the store. Despite what I said above about thinking in quarters, they have to be worried about emboldening Son of Axanar down the road. Mkstewart the White has a very good point about the studios facing a Hobson's choice.
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I doubt the studio would worry too much about "alienating JJA" by dropping negotiations (if the Axanar crowd pushed them to it). Paramount has JJA on speed-dial. JJA was the one who potentially said the wrong thing, not the studio. JJA seems reasonable enough to realize this if Paramount spends 30 seconds explaining it to him. JJA habitually says stuff in public all the time and he could probably retract/correct it without much fuss. The only people who will give Axanar's cries of betrayal much worth are the people who have a stake in Axanar.
I agree with Solo that the studios will not want to be seen as "negotiating with terrorists" on this. They won't want to give an inch and they don't have to. The Axanar guys would be lucky if they come out of this without having to pay Paramount's legal bills.
I agree with Solo that the studios will not want to be seen as "negotiating with terrorists" on this. They won't want to give an inch and they don't have to. The Axanar guys would be lucky if they come out of this without having to pay Paramount's legal bills.
Oh? Hadn't heard that. Please, dish.
Well it's not really dishing because it's up for public consumption...
http://www.facebook.com/tommykraftfilms/posts/1133891623340104
Solo4114
Master Member
Actually, coming out of this NOT having to pay Paramount's legal bills is probably one of the relatively easy giveaways that Paramount could offer as part of a settlement. Considering -- if memory serves -- that statutory damages (which would almost certainly apply if this went to trial) include attorney's fees. And litigation is not cheap. Especially when the attorneys know that, if they win, the other guy foots the bill. Of course, there's also the old law school axiom of getting blood from a stone, but that's partially why Paramount might be willing to say "Fine. Injunctive relief only. You shut down production, you don't release what you have, but we don't make you pay damages or attorney fees. Otherwise, we'll see you in court."
Like I said, aside from that, I don't really see a "middle ground" that isn't a dilution of Paramount's IP rights. And although they haven't been litigated, there's still the matter of TM dilution to worry about, even aside from the copyright issue. Another reason for CBS/Para to tell Axanar to sod off if they won't accept injunctive relief.
Honestly, if I'm Axanar's lawyer and I'm not one of those nutso "IP should be free for all" crusaders, all I'm doing in this lawsuit is damage control. And at this point, I'm telling Axanar, "I'm givin' 'er all I've got, Cap'n, but at this rate, she won't hold together much longer. We may have to eject the warp core and shut 'er down completely!"
Dessa
Sr Member
In light of everything that's come out in the past few days, I'm wondering if the "hey, back off for a bit" warnings to other fan films were because of the guidelines. They couldn't say at the time that they were working on guidelines, but wanted people to hold off until the guidelines were released so that they could make sure they were on the right side of them.
asalaw
Sr Member
I think you're right -- TM dilution is a big issue for them, and the studios have very little incentive to give away the store. It makes more sense in the context of court-ordered discussions than anything else; they've got Axanar against the wall. If I hear that Axanar gets studio blessing in the settlement, I'm getting a drug test.
I can't remember if fees & costs are included in the statutory damages offhand, but I'm sure I'll look it up at some point. Even if they're not, though, once you've rung the statutory damages bell, it's hard to imagine the court not awarding fees & costs. Axanar's behavior was pretty egregious.
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