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original esb vader costume on the auction block

SL, would be cool if you could show that ESB Farmer tour suit. Seems more likely that is the one they got originally... and this auction one was just acquired/made later. Doesn't seem they are positive that this auction suit is in fact that original they got - seems they just made the assumption based on how different it looked from the other Farmer tour suit that the owner had. And as we all know... assumption is the mother of all ****-ups.

They seem to be putting a certificate of authenticity on the wrong suit.


And WOW... isn't it CHRISTIE'S job to gather that info when they are selling something that is "supposedly" ESB production made. Anyone can state something is "supposedly" something and then just sit back and call their work done. Doesn't work that way when you are a respectable auction house and are dealing with high-priced originals and your whole reputation relies on the accuracy on what is being presented for sale.

The correct way of authenticating something is to research what is known. You cannot simply say, well, prove they didn't make RotJ style domes in the ESB production. It doesn't work that way. You have to prove it exists and that it was made, when making the claim that something that is clearly one thing comes from something it wasn't made for. You cannot just put it on others to prove that it wasn't made there. And censoring people for not agreeing and speaking up against the claim is just childish and further shows that something fishy is going on.
 
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I can't believe they are doing the same thing to you. I showed Christie's an extensive comparison of ESB and ROTJ helmet widow peaks areas...

ESBvsROTJpeak1.jpg


That the chestbox base is ROTJ, not ESB...

ChristiesESBchestboxvsROTJs.jpg


That the tubes are more like a later casting...

CrESBvs20thCLtubes2b.jpg


That it has a tell that I've found is on every original casting from the ROTJ production...

CrESBvsOrigROTJ1.jpg


That it is painted wrong, that the casting is too thick, that the nosebridge edge is not curved like originals...

ChristiesvsESBROTJorigLside1b.jpg



And I also showed them the problem with the letter "B" on the inside of the helmet (!).

And that isn't all I went through with them.

All they do is paint a rosy picture or sideline what are obvious problems with silly arguments.

I'll probably share the responses I got after the auction because they are so inane.

Sorry, I'm just in such a state of disbelief about these so-called "specialists".
 
Too Much Garlic said:
SL, would be cool if you could show that ESB Farmer tour suit. Seems more likely that is the one they got originally... and this auction one was just acquired/made later. Doesn't seem they are positive that this auction suit is in fact that original they got - seems they just made the assumption based on how different it looked from the other Farmer tour suit that the owner had. And as we all know... assumption is the mother of all ****-ups.
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The suit I referred to before is an entirely separate suit that never belonged to Mr. Zine.

They seem to be putting a certificate of authenticity on the wrong suit.
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No they are just going by what Mr. Zine has given them.

And WOW... isn't it CHRISTIE'S job to gather that info when they are selling something that is "supposedly" ESB production made. Anyone can state something is "supposedly" something and then just sit back and call their work done. Doesn't work that way when you are a respectable auction house and are dealing with high-priced originals and your whole reputation relies on the accuracy on what is being presented for sale.
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No all they do is translate what they have been given and provide qualifying words. And I got into contextual arguments with them at length about it.

The correct way of authenticating something is to research what is known. You cannot simply say, well, prove they didn't make RotJ style domes in the ESB production. It doesn't work that way. You have to prove it exists and that it was made, when making the claim that something that is clearly one thing comes from something it wasn't made for. You cannot just put it on others to prove that it wasn't made there. And censoring people for not agreeing and speaking up against the claim is just childish and further shows that something fishy is going on.
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I didn't want to get too far into this at this point, since much of what I deal with is behind the scenes, but I am told that Dave Prowse actually formally withdrew his support of the costume long before the auction. I told Christie's this, but they ignored it.
 
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brianian said:
In terms of the your comment on screen grabs I have not asked you to show me any or indeed every one, an almost impossible task I would have thought. All I wanted to know is if, in your opinion, every helmet seen in ESB has the straight line you refer to. My mentioning of the irrelevance is based on the fact I am not aware of any information that states that helmets with the filled in join did not exist, either seen on screen or indeed on the production. The fact we are not saying it was a screen used one means that if the only information people can provide to say what a production made ESB helmet should look like is by referring to ones seen on screen then it is slightly irrelevant as it is possible other helmets were on production, but were not used. I have also been of the opinion that as this particular helmet has had known restoration, then the possibility of matching it to a screen grab would be even harder, and dare I say less reliable than usual. Hence I have asked if you have documentation to show the exact make up of all helmets on the production of ESB.
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It is a circular argument which is ridiculous.

The fact of the matter is that the ESB helmets are all of the same type as are the ROTJ. Christie's cannot show that there is a ROTJ type helmet in ESB, because there is none.

By the way I also discussed this with N. J. Farmer and it was about as frustrating as it was discussing it with Christie's.
 
SithLord said:
The suit I referred to before is an entirely separate suit that never belonged to Mr. Zine.
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Yes, I was just saying that that suit was probably the one they got from LFL to make their suits from - at least the helmet - and that was the one this certificate of authenticity should go with and not this Mr. Zine suit which is being presented and touted as something it is not based on this paperwork and odd choices in authentication... and now you say they are ignoring retractions from one of those people authenticating it - Dave Prowse - and we already heard that LFL didn't authenticate it despite Christie's claiming otherwise earlier. WOW.
 
Many, but why would that help? They are novices... and most of us guys here who know our stuff is because we studied the damn things for several years. It's like teaching the newbies all the info we've accumulated over that long period and try to get them to see what we see, knowing very well that seeing comes with experience and study. It takes time to build the eye for these details and differences. Which is why it is so easy to manipulate newbies when showing off suggesting and vague images suggesting one thing that suits their goal, knowing full well that the newbie will take it as gospel because they don't really want to go check themselves to get the facts straight.

It's like trying to explain the differences between a DP standard and a DP DLX - and they are MILES apart in differences, but many think they are the same and cannot see the difference. Now... try that with these more similar helmets and then the originals... nearly impossible when whoever you are trying to educate clearly doesn't want to and openly admits they don't know anything about the character or the differences and clearly doesn't want to learn. They just want this auction over and done with, so they can rid themselves of these constant questions and critiques that they "supposedly" production made suit auction has spawned.
 
I figured, they could compare it with other vader helmets to see if they are similar. They can hirer some-one like Jez to authenticate it by comparing them side by side, but I guess that would require too much work for them.

I totally understand what you mean and appreciate the tips and history of the helmets. I find it fascinating how much research you and sithlord put into these helmets. I admit though I really cant see the differences in the blurry pictures haha. Maybe in person i would be able to tell the difference, but through pictures it would be difficult especially since different camera angles, lighting, cameras, etc etc will give different distortions.
 
Jez had been in contact with them, but he's admittedly more a trooper guy. Also, Christie's has just swept aside any evidence we can possibly come up with by saying we has to prove that Jedi style helmets weren't made in the ESB production. That's reverse burden of proof. It is THEM who has to prove that Jedi style helmets was made in the ESB production. They know they can't and they don't need to when describing the pieces as being "supposedly" ESB production made. With that kind of vague language they could even say "supposedly" ANH production made and then put it on those arguing against the auction to prove that they weren't made in that production.

Very underhanded approach if you ask me.
 
Christie's reply to being advised that it had been discussed on a forum and it had been deemed not to be what the owner states it is :-

I can also advise you that it is possible that some of the experts in the memorabilia field may have already seen the pieces, as it was shown to certain clients during pre-consignment discussions to gauge respected opinions. Generally the opinion was very positive, with the minimal negative feedback being mostly comments on its condition and known restoration.
 
LOL... what a way to misrepresent what was discussed about these pieces. The claim was debunked even then that this was production made... but still the owner went onto putting these pieces up for auction as production made.

I don't know how auctions like this occurs, but someone should really go there and make sure people aren't being mislead by the vague wording, knowing that they won't be able to complain afterward, which was shown pretty conclusively in that Star Trek auction and following lawsuit. VERY RISKY. Almost to the point of saying: buyer beware.

And stop censoring opinions trying to warn people of these scams.
 
Christie's reply to my questioning the use of Ainsworth's opinion given his history (that it was being used and anyone not knowing the details would just accept that he worked on Star Wars and had this knowledge) :-

I acknowledge that using Andrews name gives it credence, however I would be confident enough to say that anyone knowing of his involvement in Star Wars would also know his history, as you put it. However as stated in the catalogue it is written as being an opinion not fact. Therefore it is difficult to see how this can be misconstrued or meaning a full proof authentication.
 
I'll just mention something quickly here...

Brian, if, perchance, by some stroke of good fortune, you know someone who worked on Return of the Jedi, and, if also, perchance, this individual worked on or had direct knowledge of the Darth Vader helmets from that production, then he would be in a position to say that the type of helmet we see on the Christie's auction (the dome I mean) is of a type only seen in Return of the Jedi as the center ridge was modified between the eyebrow flarings at that time.

That would sink Christie's argument about there not being evidence to show that such a helmet was not in ESB.

At that point they could not deny that there is a problem with their provenance...
 
brianian said:
I can also advise you that it is possible that some of the experts in the memorabilia field may have already seen the pieces, as it was shown to certain clients during pre-consignment discussions to gauge respected opinions. Generally the opinion was very positive, with the minimal negative feedback being mostly comments on its condition and known restoration.
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I would really like to know who they are talking about here because it really seems like no one that I know of has an entirely positive opinion about the claims made in regard to this auction lot.
 
SithLord said:
I'll just mention something quickly here...

Brian, if, perchance, by some stroke of good fortune, you know someone who worked on Return of the Jedi, and, if also, perchance, this individual worked on or had direct knowledge of the Darth Vader helmets from that production, then he would be in a position to say that the type of helmet we see on the Christie's auction (the dome I mean) is of a type only seen in Return of the Jedi as the center ridge was modified between the eyebrow flarings at that time.

That would sink Christie's argument about there not being evidence to show that such a helmet was not in ESB.

At that point they could not deny that there is a problem with their provenance...
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I know the sculptors who worked on ESB (one who I still work with from time to time) and no work was done on the Vader helmet by the sculptors. It appears the plasterers cut off the 'widows peak' and the line across the dome is not great :eek which means the dome was modified remoulded and cast on ROTJ.
 
Yes, they cut off what you had made originally to be a defined peak. :confused

But that point where the peak ends between the eyebrow flarings (if you refer back to the set of images I showed comparing the widow's peak on different helmets), on ESB there is an indentation there (sort of like if someone pushed their thumb into that spot). By ROTJ it looks as if that spot was built up to merge seamlessly with the rest of the center ridge. If that buildup to make the center ridge come down to where the peak was before was done during ROTJ, then there would be no argument as to what type of helmet the one in the auction really is.

Just a point of information about terminology (not directed to you Brian), we refer to the entire ensemble of mask and dome as the "helmet". The mask is the part with the face on it along with the neck portion and head portion. The helmet or dome as it has been called here is the larger top section with the samurai-like flaring that fits over the top of the mask.
 
Just as a reminder to everyone reading, the ROTJ helmets were actually refurbished ESB helmets. A new mold for the faceplate or dome was not made for ROTJ.
The ROTJ helmet details that everyone refers to actually only pertain to one helmet in particular that happened to be on screen for the majority of the time in ROTJ.
If you were to compare a grouping of ESB helmets and a grouping of ROTJ helmets, you would find that since they are all individually converted from an ANH style base casting, that they all possess slightly different details, specifically in the chin vent area, widow's peak, and mounting ring positioning.



.
 
I would really like to know who they are talking about here because it really seems like no one that I know of has an entirely positive opinion about the claims made in regard to this auction lot.
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"Top men"
 
SithLord said:
I would really like to know who they are talking about here because it really seems like no one that I know of has an entirely positive opinion about the claims made in regard to this auction lot.
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I know that the helmet was shown to David Oliver of Propmasters.net
 
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