original esb vader costume on the auction block

I still lean towards the faceplate being more ESB than ROTJ, based on the private discussions I've had and the pics I've seen of it. Although I do not believe either of the two suits or parts he owns are screenused, I do believe the hard parts are authentic. The faceplate that is currently up for sale has a distinct feature that I've not seen on any other helmet publicly shown. It doesn't make it screenused, but it is rather interesting.

Well, according to the Christie's catalogue, they don't call it screen used, only production made.

But then again... tour suits and helmets are authentic too...

I just can't see it sell with that dubious history. It's a frankenvader of possibly production made and mainly tour pieces. Heck... the now confirmed ESB Poster helmet and authentic tour suit sold for a hell of a lot less than what this guy is now asking... and he has no way to authenticate it, which the ESB poster helmet buyer had.

Whoever buys this is buying the cat in the bag that's for sure.

It even has the double layered mouth grill configuration - isn't that exclusive to RotJ too?

lambotour said:

I still lean towards the faceplate being more ESB than ROTJ, based on the private discussions I've had and the pics I've seen of it. Although I do not believe either of the two suits or parts he owns are screenused, I do believe the hard parts are authentic. The faceplate that is currently up for sale has a distinct feature that I've not seen on any other helmet publicly shown. It doesn't make it screenused, but it is rather interesting.

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Oh, I believe they come from a tour suit, which WOULD make them authentic. I can only echo what I've said on the Den, people who are backing this guy in saying it is screen used are only perpetuating the myth. I would not care how the guy feels. The things people are pointing out PROVE Christies and this fella are wrong.

I can't speak to the faceplate as clearly as you may be able to, Pete. I was also wrong about the stunt armor and the cape chain, but the dome, and as Carsten pointed to, the tusks SCREAM RotJ. Hell, anyone can call their shins screen used all they like. As far as I know, and I admit I am not up to the level of you, or Carsten, you can call any ABS shins screen used at a glance.

Now, is it a cool suit? Hell yes! Does it have some lineage behind it? Probably, since it likely came from the same molds that made the tour suits. Is it screen used? Likely not.

Agreed. We can only say it so many times. If the seller, buyer and auction house believe otherwise, there's no point in trying to convince them.

Good luck to all. I'm outta here.

I reviewed this in detail months ago and it seems the owner didn't listen. The helmet and armor are not original ESB and it makes no difference if it was repainted.

Christie's has made another big mistake. One would think they would have more sense than this.

The armor and helmet is interesting to be sure, but without rock solid evidence I really can't see how he can justify that price. He got it from a company that made tour suits and they were given what they were told was a production made ESB suit. But... the difference between reality and what someone claimed is vastly different.

Even the dome placement screams RotJ.

Here is the sad part of the whole deal. Christie's believes this to be screen used, or at least the parts the owner is pointing to. Nothing we say, or prove, is going to sway them of that opinion.

It IS a 20th Century mask. The tube convergence shape, which is specific in its tapering and unique to the 20th C confirms it without a doubt. The detail on the left side of the U-shaped part of the nose is identical to that of a 20th C. There is added undercut to the rear edge of the mask at just the point where the 20th C ends, showing that the additional undercut was added later to a 20th C-like mask. The tusk tubes, again, have their undercut filled in, completely, just like the 20th C. The rear bottom corner of the neck has the exact same curvature as the 20th C. And finally, on the top of the mask where the 20th C mounting base was removed (!) that a new ring was put on.

It is not an original, not by a long shot. It IS a 20th C that was modified, making it even later in generation than a 20th C. If the added undercut is not part of the casting and real then it was probably a 20th C type of mask itself that was modified by NJ Farmer. But NOT an original ESB mask. No way at all. This is a cut and dried case.

SithLord:

For the uninitiated like myself, what is a 20th Century mask? Was that a replica maker? The studio?

Tks!

The 20th C comes from tour helmets. Jez has several pictures in his ESB section on starwarshelmets.com

I'm just seeing details in this auction Vader face mask that I have not seen on ANY 20th C.

It 'looks' authentic, so some rich, a-hole will probably fork over the dough.

clutch said:

It 'looks' authentic, so some rich, a-hole will probably fork over the dough.

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And there is the problem, Clutch. You know what though? Fools and their money are soon parted.

Re: Original Darth Vader costume up for sale in London

This subject might be approaching a new record, we are at seven of these threads and counting. :lol

From the description:

"Accompanied by soft clothing parts, possibly production made..."

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Possibly? That's the provenance? Possibly?

"...a letter from the former Managing Director of Farmer Studios Ltd. (a company given a production made Vader costume by Lucas Films UK with instructions to make promotional Darth Vader suits),"

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This is all he has. The rest is meaningless. Prowse' and AA's word isn't provenance. Prowse' is verbal and Prowse said exactly the same thing about the TD ANH mask when he tried it on (I have written documentation of this too). So Prowse' opinion is unreliable. AA's doesn't matter because he didn't work on Vader and he didn't work on ESB.

Now, why couldn't they refer to the name that is actually on the tags instead of the more recent name of Farmer's company which includes the word "Studio" and is therefore a misnomer as if the suit was made by a production studio. And why is it that the tag has the exact same kind of felt marking on it as a known tour suit by Farmer? Hmmm? Maybe they also used the same orange felt during the production of ESB :rolleyes .

Farmer Studios provides production services for museums, theme parks, visitor centers and retailers. They are not a motion picture studio. In other words, they make replicas.

Anyway, when was this letter from Farmer dated?

"That the supporting documentation suggests that the helmet, mask, shoulder-guards and the greave were obtained directly from the store manager on the set of the Lucas Films' production of the Empire Strikes Back in 1980 should not be underestimated."

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What is this? Suggests? You mean they don't have written proof? Remember the Trek fiasco? Christie's is just covering their rear on this. There is so much fluff in this description it is unbelievable.

They even reference how the costume was assembled from a description in "The Complete Vader", a book I contributed to, as if they consulted July Niles directly, trying to qualify why the tone of the lenses is lighter than seen onscreen.

So are we to believe that Christie's compared records of their previous Vader helmet auctions with the appearance of this one to corroborate the supposed provenance? That's what it seems like from the description. Most of their attempts to compare it fall flat because of the differences (foam interior, tusks, etc.) with previous castings.

I'll also mention that if you look at the Magic of Myth Vader, this one is almost an imitation of that. The cape hook on the armor (why put a replica cape hook on original armor?), codpiece design, etc.

And anyone with a good eye should be able to tell that none of the costume components look anywhere near 30 years old.

At some point hopefully I'll have approval to be able to show a couple of images and then we'll see comparisons that show what I am talking about in terms of the mask.

Here's an example....the hinges on the armor are significantly larger than the originals and recessed, unlike the originals.

I'll point out something that came to mind from discussions on TPD about this suit months back (March to April). There are actually two complete suits, and initially the owner claimed another helmet from the other suit was the original and that this helmet now in the auction was the tour helmet. Then after I show it isn't, he switched his story to make the larger mask the original and the smaller one the tour.

So if he has a letter from Farmer, which suit does it refer to? Which set of helmets and armor because he has two of each.

Do you see the problem with this whole picture? He didn't even know which one was original to begin with. He had to ask around first to try and find out and get someone to just say ok that one is the original one.

The guy is just trying to find something he can claim was original from his two suits and applying whatever documentation he has to the one that looks more original.

Farmer apparently did make promotional suits in 1983, so it would be easy for Prowse to think that the helmet is original.

Still thinking about this and something else came to mind.

I mentioned before that the mask has material added all the way around the circumference of the rear edge, adding to the undercut. The slots cut into the rear for the straps appear to intersect where this added material is. So if the mask was original ESB, why would they add to the rear and then add slots? This wasn't necessary on the originals because they had sufficient undercut in the rear. It would only be necessary if you started out with a replica that was trimmed back too much on the rear edge to begin with.

The strap latches are not original and in no way resemble those seen on screen masks. Interestingly, a known ESB tour suit by Farmer did have accurate latches, unlike this one.

There is a cape hook but that chain looks like a 1997 PromoVader chain. We all know that kind of chain was not on any Vader suit. There's something wrong here. Very wrong.

Thomas - I'm not a member on TPD - do you mean that the owner of the suit is possibly a member there, or even here?

"There are actually two complete suits, and initially the owner claimed another helmet from the other suit was the original and that this helmet now in the auction was the tour helmet. Then after I show it isn't, he switched his story to make the larger mask the original and the smaller one the tour."

simply curious.