If he could turn this:
http://www.saltypopcorn.com/images/avatar-pocahontas1.jpg[/img]
Into the top grossing movie of all time.
Into the top grossing movie of all time.
I guess James Cameron is a genius
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Rotwang
Sr Member
Ferngully, Pocahontas, Dances with Wolves, Dune, John Carter of Mars, Lawrence of Arabia, A man called horse ... take your pick, I probably forgot a ton of "going native" films
So Cameron went for the old "going native" scenario, he's not the first and certainly not the last (District 9 anyone ?)
Cameron made a very decent, but not great action film full of amazing visual candy. The story was just a peg to hang the CGI on, he's still a cut above the likes of Lucas, Bay, McG and those directors who make crap that insults your intelligence with a big goofy grin and shouts "popcorn" as if it will magically transform a bad film into a good one.
So Cameron went for the old "going native" scenario, he's not the first and certainly not the last (District 9 anyone ?)
Cameron made a very decent, but not great action film full of amazing visual candy. The story was just a peg to hang the CGI on, he's still a cut above the likes of Lucas, Bay, McG and those directors who make crap that insults your intelligence with a big goofy grin and shouts "popcorn" as if it will magically transform a bad film into a good one.
YenChih Lin
Master Member
But D9 was far more superior than Avatar - I felt ashamed being human after watch D9
Solo4114
Master Member
New Newtonian equation:
The force of backlash is directly proportional to and in opposition to the force of the pre- and post-release hype.
To wit:
If you tell me that some film is the second coming, it better damn well knock my socks off. If it doesn't, I'll be way more pissed than I would if you tell me a film is "eh, ok. Nothing special, really."
AT-AT Luvah
Sr Member
Whatever people's opinions are of the PT, George Lucas is still the man responsible for Star Wars, American Grafitti, and THX-1138. So to lump him in with Bay and McG is way off.
And now back to your regularly-scheduled thread already in progress.
Hector
And now back to your regularly-scheduled thread already in progress.
Hector
Carson Dyle
Sr Member
******, if you're gonna lump Lucas in with Michael Bay and McG you may as well add Disney, Hitchcock and Spielberg to the list.
As talented as Cameron is he stands in Lucas' shadow -- at least in terms of his impact on world culture. In that regard only Disney comes close to matching Lucas' legacy.
Trash the SW prequels all you want, but the guy who invented Indiana Jones and Darth Vader deserves a little more credit than the guy who directed Charlie's Angels 2.
Let's keep a little perspective here.
Carson Dyle
Sr Member
How does Avatar's record-breaking critical and commercial success factor into your backlash theory?
JoMamma_Smurf
Master Member
Dances with smurfs!!
Solo4114
Master Member
The theory is about the vehemence of the backlash, rather than the total amount of backlash.
So, in that sense, wildly successful films will also be subject to vehement backlash, even if from a small group of people. The people who do not fall into the "liked it" category will REVILE the film not merely because it doesn't entertain them, but because of all the hype and the popularity of the film.
I still haven't seen the film, so I honestly can't say one way or the other, but a friend of mine saw it and now HATES the film. When explaining why he despises it to the degree he does, he said he HATES the surrounding hype and the whole "ZOMG!!! IT'S THE BESTEST MOVIE EVAR!!!11!!!" reaction that a lot of people seem to have to it. As for the film itself, he strongly disliked it, but moreso because it had been suggested to him that the film was so unbelievably awesome that it'd blow his mind. When it failed to do so, he was pissed.
You can't really call D9 a "going native" in the classic sense. Wickus doesn't see the wonder in the aliens society (mainly because there is virtually none to be seen) and choose to switch sides because his species are wrong. Some might see Wickus as a hero, but virtually from beginning to end his actions are completely self serving with little redeeming value that all tie back to his goal to be cured of his alien infection. He doesn't want to be a "native" and everything he is doing is trying to get out of becoming one.
ONEYE
Sr Member
Lost some of my coffee when I read that! Got to clean my monitor screen now. :lol :thumbsup
Colin Droidmilk
Sr Member
Right, well, I'd been kind of approaching this film with a positive outlook and was going to give it the benefit of the doubt and see it, even if only to take in a little eye-candy.
But I just got round finally to watching some clips on youtube. Cameron won't be getting a cent out of me for this. Thank ****** I saw the clips before I wasted dough yet again on: totally sub-Gollum figure animation; totally phoney-looking video-game camera movement, and useless, useless dialogue (makes Starship Troopers and Aliens look like F.Scott Fitzgerald). Plus the sad spectacle of Sigourney adrift in the resultant mess.
I'll live without Avatar. If I want tall blue naked humanoids I'll re-read some old Richard Corben comics (he does them so much better); if I want interesting eye-candy hardware I'll just design it myself, and if I want good dialogue, I'll rent an old movie...you know, some type of old classic from the days of yore when people knew how to write - yeah, I'll rent Starship Troopers. Jeesh...
But I just got round finally to watching some clips on youtube. Cameron won't be getting a cent out of me for this. Thank ****** I saw the clips before I wasted dough yet again on: totally sub-Gollum figure animation; totally phoney-looking video-game camera movement, and useless, useless dialogue (makes Starship Troopers and Aliens look like F.Scott Fitzgerald). Plus the sad spectacle of Sigourney adrift in the resultant mess.
I'll live without Avatar. If I want tall blue naked humanoids I'll re-read some old Richard Corben comics (he does them so much better); if I want interesting eye-candy hardware I'll just design it myself, and if I want good dialogue, I'll rent an old movie...you know, some type of old classic from the days of yore when people knew how to write - yeah, I'll rent Starship Troopers. Jeesh...
Solo4114
Master Member
I **** on eye candy. Seriously, any movie can give you eye candy now. I can get that from ****ing video games. Eye candy don't impress me. Now, I hear Avatar is supposed to be amazingly awesomely amazing, and that's fine, but it hasn't been enough to make me go see it yet.
I want good stories. I'll sacrifice pretty graphics for a good story any day of the week and twice on Sunday.
Now, that's not to say I wouldn't enjoy Avatar. I might. I have no idea. But it is to say that just saying "But the f/x are AWESOME!" doesn't make me want to see it. Tell me about how cool the story is. Then you'll get my attention.
I want good stories. I'll sacrifice pretty graphics for a good story any day of the week and twice on Sunday.
Now, that's not to say I wouldn't enjoy Avatar. I might. I have no idea. But it is to say that just saying "But the f/x are AWESOME!" doesn't make me want to see it. Tell me about how cool the story is. Then you'll get my attention.
Colin Droidmilk
Sr Member
I saw 6 clips including a supposedly showcase chase scene, and Avatar doesn't even make it on the eye-candy level as far as I'm concerned.
Jamanticus
Well-Known Member
I think you should reserve judgement until you've seen the film in its (very long) entirety. Granted, your opinion is valid, but only in regard to those clips you've seen.
Rotwang
Sr Member
Cameron has played a very subtle game with Avatar. He seems to have grabbed upon a bunch of demographics and given them each something to chew on.
For guys, there is the cool hardware, badass guys, marines and plenty of stuff go boom.
But Avatar is also a chick flick with a strong heroine and a romantic hero who understands her and lots of that touchy feely emotions women can't get enough of.
It's got the big cool universe roleplayers digg.
A lot of it is lifted from Jurassic Park and Walking with dinosaurs.
The Na'vi are plain furry fodder. Cameron makes Xenophilia almost respectable.
AMP suits, guns, starships, and those supercool holographic screens are just plain techie geek fodder.
Add 3D and a smart use of the technology (Cameron doesn't fall into the trap of tossing pingpong balls at you all the time)
And then there is the actual Avatar idea, the mother of all transformation fantasies, you not only get to be a better, cooler person, you are in touch with the whole planet and have a neural connection when making whoopie ... (Yes, there is an Eywa, Virginia)
The whole new age in touch with nature and plain living
Avatar throws so many leads about it has something to appeal to a very broad segment of the population.
Cameron just manipulates us with a very efficient little movie that manages to push enough buttons to rake in 2 billon $ and it suckered me to go watch it twice because he got to some of my emotional buttons, even though my rational mind says that it's not a great movie.
BTW, I apologize if people feel offended that I knock on George Lucas. I love Star Wars, I hear the music and I'm instantly a kid again. I can forgive Lucas a lot, I even try to stand in his shoes whenever I see Jar Jar Binks and convince myself Lucas honestly believes he is hilarious, but I also believe that whatever talent Lucas had as a filmmaker and director has evaporated somewhere at the tail end of the 80's. Lucas was lucky to work with fantastic people like Kurtz, Kirshner, editors and all those talented people who helped bring Lucas' inspired but a bit muddled ideas into focus and made some of my all-time favourite movies. Lucas was a powerful creative force, but until he makes another good movie, he's out of the loop for me.
For guys, there is the cool hardware, badass guys, marines and plenty of stuff go boom.
But Avatar is also a chick flick with a strong heroine and a romantic hero who understands her and lots of that touchy feely emotions women can't get enough of.
It's got the big cool universe roleplayers digg.
A lot of it is lifted from Jurassic Park and Walking with dinosaurs.
The Na'vi are plain furry fodder. Cameron makes Xenophilia almost respectable.
AMP suits, guns, starships, and those supercool holographic screens are just plain techie geek fodder.
Add 3D and a smart use of the technology (Cameron doesn't fall into the trap of tossing pingpong balls at you all the time)
And then there is the actual Avatar idea, the mother of all transformation fantasies, you not only get to be a better, cooler person, you are in touch with the whole planet and have a neural connection when making whoopie ... (Yes, there is an Eywa, Virginia)
The whole new age in touch with nature and plain living
Avatar throws so many leads about it has something to appeal to a very broad segment of the population.
Cameron just manipulates us with a very efficient little movie that manages to push enough buttons to rake in 2 billon $ and it suckered me to go watch it twice because he got to some of my emotional buttons, even though my rational mind says that it's not a great movie.
BTW, I apologize if people feel offended that I knock on George Lucas. I love Star Wars, I hear the music and I'm instantly a kid again. I can forgive Lucas a lot, I even try to stand in his shoes whenever I see Jar Jar Binks and convince myself Lucas honestly believes he is hilarious, but I also believe that whatever talent Lucas had as a filmmaker and director has evaporated somewhere at the tail end of the 80's. Lucas was lucky to work with fantastic people like Kurtz, Kirshner, editors and all those talented people who helped bring Lucas' inspired but a bit muddled ideas into focus and made some of my all-time favourite movies. Lucas was a powerful creative force, but until he makes another good movie, he's out of the loop for me.
Studio Stasis
Sr Member
No, Avatar didn't bring us a new story, but wrapped a great story that has been done very well in the past, and retold it with a new skin, much like a musical artist remaking an old song.
When a song is remade, it has to not only impress the audience that loved the original version of the song, but grab a whole new audience that may have never known the original song.
This story had already been done, and done so well that Dances With Wolves won best picture.
The bottom line for me was whether or not the characters were compelling and how much the film makes me care about them. I have seen many eye-candy movies where I couldn't muster one ounce of interest for the protagonist, and watched the eye candy attempt to carry the film above story, dialogue, performance, etc. This movie made me care about the characters.
If you saw Avatar and you didn't care about the characters, then the movie failed. I looked past the CGI and asked myself if this movie would be a compelling book to read. I think the story would feel rehashed, but in a way that doesn't **** on the earlier attempts of the same story. When you hear a remake of a song and it pisses you off, the person isn't paying homage to the original, but putting a spin on it that risks alienating previous fans or gaining an army of new fans.
Flo Rida released the song "Right Round", borrowing melodies and lyrics from "You Spin Me Round" by Dead or Alive. Granted, I wasn't a huge fan of the original, but the remake just made me throw up in my mouth. I can understand why people may hate Avatar because it is essentially a remake of other stories, repackaged.
If you aren't into the spectacle of the visuals, you just have to ask yourself if the characters compel you at all. Are you even open to allowing that? I hated the casting so much in Spider Man that I was never open to enjoying it at all. To this day I hate all of the films, and yet the only comic book collection I kept over the years were my Spider Man comics. They simply missed the mark in my opinion. The visuals were spectacular, and I was revolted by the casting and execution of the story by the actors and director. I think everyone has to make up their own mind after seeing the film and deciding if it grabs them or falls flat. For me the crazy visuals were just icing on the cake. I enjoyed the story and, acting performances, and the experience.
When a song is remade, it has to not only impress the audience that loved the original version of the song, but grab a whole new audience that may have never known the original song.
This story had already been done, and done so well that Dances With Wolves won best picture.
The bottom line for me was whether or not the characters were compelling and how much the film makes me care about them. I have seen many eye-candy movies where I couldn't muster one ounce of interest for the protagonist, and watched the eye candy attempt to carry the film above story, dialogue, performance, etc. This movie made me care about the characters.
If you saw Avatar and you didn't care about the characters, then the movie failed. I looked past the CGI and asked myself if this movie would be a compelling book to read. I think the story would feel rehashed, but in a way that doesn't **** on the earlier attempts of the same story. When you hear a remake of a song and it pisses you off, the person isn't paying homage to the original, but putting a spin on it that risks alienating previous fans or gaining an army of new fans.
Flo Rida released the song "Right Round", borrowing melodies and lyrics from "You Spin Me Round" by Dead or Alive. Granted, I wasn't a huge fan of the original, but the remake just made me throw up in my mouth. I can understand why people may hate Avatar because it is essentially a remake of other stories, repackaged.
If you aren't into the spectacle of the visuals, you just have to ask yourself if the characters compel you at all. Are you even open to allowing that? I hated the casting so much in Spider Man that I was never open to enjoying it at all. To this day I hate all of the films, and yet the only comic book collection I kept over the years were my Spider Man comics. They simply missed the mark in my opinion. The visuals were spectacular, and I was revolted by the casting and execution of the story by the actors and director. I think everyone has to make up their own mind after seeing the film and deciding if it grabs them or falls flat. For me the crazy visuals were just icing on the cake. I enjoyed the story and, acting performances, and the experience.
Colin Droidmilk
Sr Member
Actually I don't buy this argument. Six clips is enough to show me the level of dialogue, the quality of animation, and the director's choice of videogame motion on the camera and characters (it's inconceivable that the 6 clips I saw were all dreck and the rest of the film is great). I didn't make a judgment on any other aspect of the film. I did say it fails for me as eye-candy, and that's because of the style clearly in evidence in the clips, a style which must permeate the whole film. If it doesn't, then the film is guilty of having no consistency. It has none anyway, since the ani-world fails to mesh with the live-action, obvious just from the clips. The mere fact that the film has the material seen in those clips renders the whole movie unwatchable for me.
I kept my mouth shut about the story, but my predictions for that were perfectly borne out by the witty and intelligent review link posted in the other avatar thread...
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