Caprica On SyFy: 1/29

Re: Caprica On SyFy: 1/22

Well my thing is that Kerr Boiling the point down to a Spoiled 16yo with daddy issues is grossly inaccurate. Caprican Society (as well as the other colonies) is totally Decadent. You have a vice, they have a God out of their pantheon to cover it, just like ancient Rome. Along comes a new group with the vision of Monotheism, or One God, causing the Caprican Political Heirarchy (and what a bigoted bunch they are) to have something to use to exert their authority to tighten their grip of power (hmmm...familiar no?).

Now his daughter wanted to leave what she sees as a Decaying society in which her parents are smack in the middle of, to make a fresh start, not realizing that there are those as bad or worse, on the Monotheists side.

The fact that he's using her basic brain algorithms to enhance his Cylon Programming, will have in there that core Monotheistic Belief, the dislike of Caprican/humanities shortcomings, as well as what she may do as now a Cylon Herself to infect the basic programming that will eventually lead to the Rebellion.

The pilot impressed me, and I'm looking forward to seeing how it plays out.
 
Re: Caprica On SyFy: 1/22

Whine whine whine. Whatever.

Wow, based on your last post, Kerr, sounds like you're the one now whining and complaining about me and the likes of me who stumble into a potentially spoiler-filled thread. There seems to be a widely accepted convention here of putting spoiler alerts in the subject line or at the beginning of a post, and clearly you ignored that rule. So on both counts, pot calling the kettle black, hmmm?

To set the record straight, there were no spoilers until YOU came along, so Franz Bolo is correct. You also came in here with a clearly negative attitude and the deliberate intent of eliciting strong reactions with your provocative comments about the show (I just came here to find out when it was airing). And finally, as has been pointed out, you don't handle criticism well.

Obviously you are a troubled individual with a long history of being a conflict junkie on this site. I'll do my best to step out of your way from now on, because I really just want to come here and enjoy the positive energy of those who actually contribute something and be constructive players in this virtual sandbox. If you DO contribute anything tangible and positive here (i.e., research, skills, a kick-ass collection, industry news, etc.) please by all means point me to one of your threads and maybe we can start over.

Until then, I wish you peace and contentment! :)

RR
 
Re: Caprica On SyFy: 1/22

There's a word for those whose dislike of something compels them to try and spoil it for everyone else. Several words actually, but you can't type any of them here.

Caprica is a problematic show, but I'll hang in there for a few episodes to see if the thing gels. It's already interesting from a purely thematic standpoint, but it remains to be seen how much entertainment value there is to be had in a series about a dysfunctional dynasty living in the waning days of a doomed civilization. As dour as BS:G could get, there was implicit in the premise the promise that the colonial refugees would one day find a safe haven. From what I can tell, Caprica offers no such hope, and without that I'm not sure how sustainable the premise will prove. Especially given the relative scarcity of cool looking spaceships.

But, you know, I enjoy the intellectual curiosity Moore brings to the party, and I have no problem with the sort of moral and narrative ambiguity that pisses off those weened on pat explanations and easy resolutions. BS:G is one of the finest sci-fi series ever produced IMO (arguably the finest), and although it will be almost impossible to top, I'm rooting for Caprica to give it a fair shot.

Three things:

1.) BSG as an entire series was, on the whole, very good. Is it the best? I don't think so, no. It does have some of the best characterization in any sci-fi show I've ever seen. Probably the best, actually. But to me that's also one of the things that holds it back. Basically, it sounds like Moore wanted a character-driven story with some vague plot stuff about finding earth, but whether they ever found earth was by and large irrelevant to him. The characters were where it was at. The network, on the other hand, wanted him to throw in mysteries, compelling plot, "what happens next" stuff, etc. End result: the first season or two are cracking good stories with fantastic characterization AND what appeared to be great plot. Then it went off the rails and meandered until it gradually resolved the plot in a half-assed way. The character arcs remained top-notch, but they just flat-out dropped the ball on the plot.

Now, Moore can waive his hand and say "Bah, the plot never really mattered," but that's not really the bill of goods he sold the viewers, nor is it what he was commissioned to do. So, while I very much appreciate the characterization he brought to the show, and what he proved sci-fi could do and the appeal it could have, I'm not going to cut him any slack for failing to handle the plotlines effectively. Maybe they do it better in the extended DVD edition, but I didn't see that, and the broadcast version was basically a literal deus ex machina solution. I'm sorry, but that's just lame. I can forgive all the stuff like "Why'd the colonists give up their toys", but not the "God did it" solution to the "great mystery" that he was "forced" to put in. I don't care if it isn't what he wanted to do. That doesn't excuse or change the fact that he half-assed the solution to it.

2.) Liking or enjoying a well plotted story doesn't (A) mean that you can't appreciate amazing characterization, or (B) that you're some kind of moron. I don't know about you, but I can see plenty of artistry in the crafting of an intricate, well thought-out plot that resolves cleanly. Not necessarily "And they all lived happily ever after," mind you, but that actually provides coherent resolution to the piece. Some writers feel hemmed in by that. Other writers can't really write developed characters worth a damn, but can do fantastic plots. Personally, what appealed to me about BSG was the fact that, at least until the finale, I THOUGHT that I was getting that rarest of gems: the best of both worlds. Turns out I was wrong. So, while I can still appreciate the skill involved in creating truly life-like characters, I ain't cutting Moore any slack on his plotting abilities, which strike me as...sub-par.

3.) My hunch is that Caprica will end up being mostly detached from the BSG we know, and will likely only finally end with the actual start of the Cylon revolt, if it even gets that far. In the meantime, it'll probably be a very interesting exploration of certain themes on the grand scale, and characters on the small scale. I think it'll actually be far less about plot, and far more about just the themes and the players involved. There won't be "a plan", there won't be opening bits in EVERY SINGLE EPISODE that highlight "the big mystery", and in a sense, the future is already known so all we have to do is sort of fill in the blanks plot-wise. In some ways, I think that's probably more liberating and may make the show more enjoyable.

BUT if it is a heavily plot-driven show, I question whether that aspect will be handled well.

Well my thing is that Kerr Boiling the point down to a Spoiled 16yo with daddy issues is grossly inaccurate. Caprican Society (as well as the other colonies) is totally Decadent. You have a vice, they have a God out of their pantheon to cover it, just like ancient Rome. Along comes a new group with the vision of Monotheism, or One God, causing the Caprican Political Heirarchy (and what a bigoted bunch they are) to have something to use to exert their authority to tighten their grip of power (hmmm...familiar no?).

Now his daughter wanted to leave what she sees as a Decaying society in which her parents are smack in the middle of, to make a fresh start, not realizing that there are those as bad or worse, on the Monotheists side.

The fact that he's using her basic brain algorithms to enhance his Cylon Programming, will have in there that core Monotheistic Belief, the dislike of Caprican/humanities shortcomings, as well as what she may do as now a Cylon Herself to infect the basic programming that will eventually lead to the Rebellion.

The pilot impressed me, and I'm looking forward to seeing how it plays out.


THAT description actually makes me far more interested. Like, I really enjoyed watching Rome and I, Claudius, as well as The Tudors. I KNOW how these stories will end. What's more interesting to me is seeing how THIS version plays it out, and how the characters are handled. Again, in that sense, stories set within a finite period where you know both the beginning and end points of the "plot" (or better yet, the history) give you a bit more leeway to play with characters.

I also don't mind that the show could end up being very VERY bleak as we watch a civilization decline. Then again, I'm a political news junkie, so I kind of already watch THAT show on a daily basis... :rolleyes But I digress.


My main question is this:

Is the show being billed as having some grand "mystery" so far? Did the pilot highlight some big journey that we'll be taking, and how answers will be revealed and whatnot? Or is it really coming across as PURELY character-driven with the plot/timeline merely serving as the framework within which the characters will exist?
 
Re: Caprica On SyFy: 1/22

Doesn't it seem like they are not going back far enough in time? I mean the cylons can go from toasters to perfect imitations of humans within Adama's lifetime?
 
Re: Caprica On SyFy: 1/22

Remember, the Five, created the skinjobs, the furtherest the Toasters got was The Hybrids. The war ended because the Five had arrived bringing Resurrection Technology with them.
 
Re: Caprica On SyFy: 1/22

Doesn't it seem like they are not going back far enough in time? I mean the cylons can go from toasters to perfect imitations of humans within Adama's lifetime?

Actually yes, if you could develop a truly intelligent AI system it'd have a processor that could easily equal the human brain if not exceed it. Network a bunch of of them together and you can solve massive problems with distributed computing. Since each computer or 'brain' is as good as the last, you could have no limit to the number of geniuses working on a problem. They just better not have ANY human form Cylons prior to the end of Caprica or Moore is just tossing his own continuity out the window.
 
Re: Caprica On SyFy: 1/22

I was surprised it was this good. I was prepared for it to be a horrible soap opera/90210 type show. It looks like it might be decent.


They just better not have ANY human form Cylons prior to the end of Caprica or Moore is just tossing his own continuity out the window.

How does it hurt continuity? The colony Cylons were supposedly started by the final five, unless I totally misinterpreted the BSG show.
 
Re: Caprica On SyFy: 1/22

Sheesh if hinting at possible spoilers from a DVD release dating back 9 full months (that's close to a full year) is really a spoiler this site is doomed... Yes Caprica was released in April 2009 not last/this week!

When is it not a spoiler after the movie/show has been out for 1, 2 or 5 years?

Or at this thread would imply not until a period of time after it's aired on TV?

It's a 9+ month old show people, hardly justification to cry spoiler it's old news...
 
Re: Caprica On SyFy: 1/22

The character arcs remained top-notch, but they just flat-out dropped the ball on the plot.

Plot and character are the same thing. If you feel the show ran off the rails in latter seasons (and I agree with this opinion) it’s because the characters were, quite frankly, not as well realized.

It’s not hard to figure out why this happened; as Ron Moore began to spend more time on other projects (i.e. developing Caprica) he was required to spend less time on the day-to-day writing of BS:G. And the characters suffered.

Fortunately Moore re-engaged in the creative process for the climax, and the result, although controversial, is as well written as anything the series ever produced.

the broadcast version was basically a literal deus ex machina solution.

Oh, Gods, not again. :)

Everything that transpired at the series climax did so as the result of carefully motivated, painstakingly structured, value-charged choices made by the characters. The fact that a mysteriously God-like spirituality was introduced into the proceedings in the earliest episodes of the first season in no way consigns the conclusion to the dramatically lame condition of dues ex machina.

Certainly the last couple of seasons leading up to the climax have their share of writing issues, but charges of deus ex machina are without merit.
 
Re: Caprica On SyFy: 1/22

Everything that transpired at the series climax did so as the result of carefully motivated, painstakingly structured, value-charged choices made by the characters. The fact that a mysteriously God-like spirituality was introduced into the proceedings in the earliest episodes of the first season in no way consigns the conclusion to the dramatically lame condition of dues ex machina.

No, it didn't. Racetrack's hand just 'happening to fall on' the launch button. Deus ex machina. Starbuc's existance after being blown up in the nebula. Deus ex machina. The song that magically takes them to Earth when translated into numbers. Deus ex machina. There were others, but those are some of the most egregious ones.
 
Re: Caprica On SyFy: 1/22

No, it didn't. Racetrack's hand just 'happening to fall on' the launch button. Deus ex machina. Starbuc's existance after being blown up in the nebula. Deus ex machina. The song that magically takes them to Earth when translated into numbers. Deus ex machina.

With all due respect, you don't know the meaning of the phrase.

In each instance the "seemingly" random events referred to were carefully foreshadowed. Writers often set up "accidents" or "coincidences" at the climax of a story which aren't really accidents at all but rather the result of careful plotting. That's why, when Alec Guiness "just happens" to fall on the detonator at the thrilling climax to Bridge Over the River Kwai the action falls outside the realm of deus ex machina.

Consider the business with the launch button in BS:G for example: prior to the "accidental" launch it is established that the characters have made the decision to arm the weapon. It has further been established that the spacecraft in question is prone to sudden and violent contact with space rubble. It has further been established that a "supernatural" presence -- for all intents and purposes another character -- is interfering with the lives of the Colonials and the Cylons. Because this information has been carefully woven into the story the launch of the weapon is not a surprise; indeed, given what we know, it is inevitable. It's the pay-off to a set-up, nothing more, nothing less.

None of this structural stuff is rocket science, btw. If you want to understand dramatic structure pick of a copy of The Art of Dramatic Writing, a classic work on the subject by Lejos Egri. If nothing else it will give you a better understanding of the dreaded deus ex machina.
 
Re: Caprica On SyFy: 1/22

With all due respect, you don't know the meaning of the phrase.

No, it was deus ex machina across the board, it was the poorest kind of writing possible because they had written themselves so far into a corner there was no other way to come up with why everything happened.
 
Re: Caprica On SyFy: 1/22

Plot and character are the same thing. If you feel the show ran off the rails in latter seasons (and I agree with this opinion) it’s because the characters were, quite frankly, not as well realized.

Well, you're the writer and I'm just the audience member, but I tend to distinguish between the two. The plot, I think, is separate from the characters in that it represents the overall story of the show, rather than the development of each of the individual characters.

Let me put it this way. Pick up your average Sherlock Holmes story. Let's go with The Speckled Band, for example. You don't get a lot of character development in the story. The regular characters (Holmes and Watson) don't really change or develop as a result of anything they do, nor do they seem any different from the last umpteen adventures of theirs that you may have read. On the other hand, the plot about the crazed old man slowly murdering his daughters through the use of a trained snake, the particulars of which must be gradually discovered and uncovered by both the reader and teh characters, that tells a story. A plot. While it's dependent on the characters doing XYZ to solve the mystery, it's still pretty much all about revealing the mystery gradually. Uncovering clues which ultimately reveal a greater answer.

BSG -- apparently at the behest of the network -- included several "mystery" elements. Who are the human cylon models? What is the cylon plan? How the hell are all of these mysterious things happening and what's the explanation? Where did Head Six come from and then, suddenly, where did Head Baltar come from?

The final seasons address the human cylon thing -- and admittedly Moore had NO IDEA who the "final five" were until he got to the episode where he revealed the identity of four of them. His reason for choosing those four? He thought it'd make for interesting character arcs. So, not only did he not know what he'd do going into it, he didn't know where he'd go coming out of it.


That's just sloppy. That's making **** up on the fly and, I'm sorry, but when you're telling a story the way Galactica was advertised at the beginning of EVERY SINGLE EPISODE, there's just no excuse for that kind of flying by the seat of your pants. Were I the one writing the show, and were I the one who was tasked with creating a mystery of "What's the plan" and "Who are the cylons?" I'd have planned it out from day freakin' one. You can still play with the characters in between their initial introduction and the moment you reveal them to be cylons, but you gotta know who they are and where you're going with 'em. Moore admits he didn't do that. He just made it up as he went along.


As for the other mysteries, his answer is a cursory "It's god. Next question?" And yeah, you can look at the mysterious elements in the earliest seasons (IE: all the coincidences) to see other points where that happens, but I still think that the way the "it's God" thing is revealed was not handled particularly well. Classic case of mismanaging audience expectations. You can't set up a mystery whose answer is simply a mystery. "God" is unfathomable and could be/mean/stand for anything. "God" is also a very convenient answer for ANYTHING at that point which isn't resolved. "God did it and God wanted it this way." He might as well have just said "Well, it's a mystery," as the answer to the big mysteries. Which, really, isn't much of an answer at all. All it does is turn the whole mystery element of the show into a giant rooster-tease. Now, some may say "Ah ha! Brilliant artistry in defying convention!" And you know what? Maybe it is. But it's extremely unsatisfying and as I said, it totally mismanages the audiences expectations.

If at the end of a Sherlock Holmes story, Holmes simply turned to Watson and said "Bugger me, Watson, I've no idea what the truth was. I suppose it's a mystery..." do you think those stories would have survived this long?

My other gripe with it is that it seems too tossed off. It's like Moore couldn't be bothered to answer the mysteries, or he'd made them so elaborate and built them up so much that he realized he'd never be able to deliver a satisfying answer, so he simply sidestepped it and forestalled any further discussion of the matter. "God did it. Now **** off. I have characters to write, stupid."

It’s not hard to figure out why this happened; as Ron Moore began to spend more time on other projects (i.e. developing Caprica) he was required to spend less time on the day-to-day writing of BS:G. And the characters suffered.

Fortunately Moore re-engaged in the creative process for the climax, and the result, although controversial, is as well written as anything the series ever produced.

For the characters, yes. Very satisfying. Lee and Kara's juxtaposed sequences from very early in their relationship against their final goodbye, Adama's loneliness on top of the mountain, Baltar's final redemption, all of that was brilliant and beautiful and highly satisfying. But the whole "God did it" aspect of the mysteries and "How the hell did we get here" bit? Moore might have just as well said "Because I said so."





So, again, Moore can blame the studios all he wants. He can say "Oh, but viewers are just sheep who have been trained to want neat conclusions and happy endings." And you know what my response is? "**** you. That's a cop-out answer if ever I heard one. By the way, you can't plot worth a damn."

Maybe Moore NEVER wanted to do the whole "mystery" thing. Maybe Moore always was held back by the studio in terms of emphasizing the mystical aspects of the show in a way that'd make it clear that "No, seriously GOD is doing ALL of this." Maybe he hates being constrained by some defined endpoint because he feels it limits his ability to write believable characters, and maybe his ability really IS restrained by that.

But I still don't cut him any slack for how he manages the audience with that stuff. Joss Whedon and his writing team also have created very human, very well defined characters. AND they know how to manage a plot. Even if they don't give the audience the neat little package wrapped up with a bow, they damn sure don't give 'em nothing but a rooster-tease (unless a show gets canceled early) by saying "Well, it's a mystery" at the end of things.

J. Michael Stracynski wrote the vast majority of the episodes of Babylon 5 and, while I'd say his characters are a good bit broader and less nuanced than what you see in BSG, he absolutely knew how to plot METICULOUSLY so that you'd get from A to B to C in a natural way. And while his final episode has some "happy ending" elements to it, it also does things that audiences probably wouldn't say "Yes, do that. We want to see that."


My point? You can defy convention while still offering an emotionally satisfying conclusion to your plot. You can play with the audience's expectations while still giving them solutions that "fit" and don't come across as "Couldn't be bothered. I have other **** to do." Finally, it IS possible to manage plotlines AND create believable characters. It's possible to know at any point in the story where you are, how you got there, and where you're going if you take the time to plan ahead early in the game. Moore didn't do that, and that, in my opinion, was his biggest failing in BSG. Great characters, **** plot resolution.
 
Re: Caprica On SyFy: 1/22

J. Michael Stracynski wrote the vast majority of the episodes of Babylon 5 and, while I'd say his characters are a good bit broader and less nuanced than what you see in BSG, he absolutely knew how to plot METICULOUSLY so that you'd get from A to B to C in a natural way. And while his final episode has some "happy ending" elements to it, it also does things that audiences probably wouldn't say "Yes, do that. We want to see that."

JMS can write circles around Moore as far as I'm concerned. At the final episode, essentially all was wrapped up and nothing was because "God did it." Also, I wouldn't necessarily characterize his last episode as all that happy, as it was perhaps the most heart wrenching episode of television history as far as I'm concerned. Sheridan dieing and going beyond the Rim with the First Ones, Delenn watching the sunrise for every day for the rest of her life alone, watching JMS himself pull the switch to power on Babylon 5 as his only on screen credit, watching Babylon 5 demolished for political purposes, watching Ivonova take over the Rangers with that look in her eyes. Even now I can't watch it without tearing up, without seeing a magnum opus come to an end and to a final resolution.
 
Re: Caprica On SyFy: 1/22

No, it was deus ex machina across the board

Yeah, well, you can type that phrase all you like, but typing it won't make it so.

You find Moore's BS:G to be too loosely plotted, and I find Bab 5 to be an artificially pre-fabricated check-list of expositional elements that plays more like a overly-detailed synopsis than anything resembling drama.

To each his own, I guess.
 
Re: Caprica On SyFy: 1/22

Just to sum up some timing issues people have-

The Cylons were purely robotic in form during the Cylon War. The first Hybrid seen in Razor is the only Cylon with organics known before the fall. The Cylon war ended because the Final Five arrived from the origianl Earth and cut the Cylon a deal- End the war in exchange for resurrection. Once that happened, the final five created eight human for models (skinjobs). Gradually, the skinjobs began infiltrating the colonies, but it wasn't until The Fall that it was revealed to the humans that skinjobs existed.

Spolier-















Bearing all this in mind, I find it interesting that the belief in one god didn't come from the Final Five, but in the creation of the first Centurion.
 
Last edited:
Re: Caprica On SyFy: 1/22

Yeah, well, you can type that phrase all you like, but typing it won't make it so.

You find Moore's BS:G to be too loosely plotted, and I find Bab 5 to be an artificially pre-fabricated check-list of expositional elements that plays more like a overly-detailed synopsis than anything resembling drama.

To each his own, I guess.

It's not a matter of loose plot, simply a matter of contrived plot. Anything that Moore wasn't able to explain he just said 'God did it.' **** poor writing no mater what you call it.
 
This thread is more than 14 years old.

Your message may be considered spam for the following reasons:

  1. This thread hasn't been active in some time. A new post in this thread might not contribute constructively to this discussion after so long.
If you wish to reply despite these issues, check the box below before replying.
Be aware that malicious compliance may result in more severe penalties.
Back
Top