Some SW props up for auction at Christie's (UK) December

GINO,

I couldn't help but notice that in your past sideswipes at vadermania's helmet on The Prop Den you'd promote your own as "superior" and that it's "provenance is golden". When asked to support that claim, you wouldn't. And here you are blasting something that is not in your possession but that challenges your dominant claims of having the best of the best of the best. In those threads, people weren't even talking about your helmet specifically, but you trolled Den threads to draw attention to your own as the best and the most accurate.

When you give opinions as final authority, you don't support your opinions. Yet you require others to. Is there something behind this huge double standard?

I noticed in this thread and the parallel thread on the Den that you create golden rules in order to lord your opinion over that of others. The "cast yesterday vs. today" misdefinition was already shot down on the Den, and I see you echoing here. These are misdefinitions because not only are your facts disputed but using misdefinitions too conveniently bend the arguement to your favor. And what is the end result of winning the argument? That GINO has the best of the best and the most accurate ever, etc.

Well, I'd hate to think this is a trend, GINO. If you created a misdefinition out of misconception by accident, well, we're all human and we are all learning.

However, I most recently saw you jump all over DarthVaderV's breathing box like a smear campaign, and while you cited that "other" people had seen his threads as offensive, none have come forward. Moreover, your own words betrayed a gross misdefinition that would polarize the uniniated in becoming biased against those you're opposed to.

I noticed that one RFPer called you "the Godfather of All Things Vader" a while back. Please don't let titles like that turn you away from being a giving, compassionate individual who helps others achieve their goals rather than one who shoots down others' props to make his own props look better in the eyes of the community. I'd think that instead of beating others down who have more accurate stuff than yours, I think you'd be a hero in cheering people on because the whole community grows and develops as a result.

This is why I've stopped talking Vader on the RPF. It is VERY discouraging. When I worked on my Outfit, people tended to be encouraging, but sketchy on assistance. Those people who claim to be the be all and end all of experts refuse. Flat Out Refuse to share knowledge, explanations, or anything else beyond 'Hey. I know it to be true. I'm not saying why'. And it happens every single time.

As far as I can figure, it is because that those people want to be the only experts, and they want to be the only ones who make money being those experts. Heaven forbid if someone else makes a really nice Vader costume/display. I know I have a very nice Costume. Even then, I continue to slowly upgrade. And yet, those experts likely consider it to be utter crap, and no better than a rubies.

These are the times when I hate the RPF.

SHalamar said:

This is why I've stopped talking Vader on the RPF. It is VERY discouraging. When I worked on my Outfit, people tended to be encouraging, but sketchy on assistance. Those people who claim to be the be all and end all of experts refuse. Flat Out Refuse to share knowledge, explanations, or anything else beyond 'Hey. I know it to be true. I'm not saying why'. And it happens every single time.

As far as I can figure, it is because that those people want to be the only experts, and they want to be the only ones who make money being those experts. Heaven forbid if someone else makes a really nice Vader costume/display. I know I have a very nice Costume. Even then, I continue to slowly upgrade. And yet, those experts likely consider it to be utter crap, and no better than a rubies.

These are the times when I hate the RPF.

Click to expand...

Shalamar,

I'm sorry you went through that. I can completely relate. I'm an underdog that started with excrement kits. I'd rather take something considered inferior and build it up as accurately as possible than to give my money to some of these so-called experts. Often times I feel the only thing that makes them experts is the air of authority and that you have no other knowledgeable people to compare notes with.

I completely understand how a very small handfull of individuals can sour one's feelings towards a hobby. Believe me, I've been there and I've nearly quit myself. However, over on The Prop Den people do try to make a difference and to restore warmth, respect and encouraging support.

Don't give up hope. Drop on by for a visit!

SHalamar said:

These are the times when I hate the RPF.

Click to expand...

Shalamar, don't let a few get you down. This place has some of, if not the, most incredibly talented people in the prop community. Are there a-holes here, of course, but it's no different than anywhere else. Go over to The Prop Den and you will find very helpful and extremely knowledgeable vader fans over there. No knock on the RPF, because this is where it all started, but you will find, for the most part, that there isn't the same animosity amongst that group as there is here. Every time, every single time, a vader thread starts here at the RPF it dissolves into a flame war etc. Funny thing is that it's almost always started by the same person(s).

It seems everyone wants to jump on Gino on this thread, however IMO he has raised some important issues.

I was asked by Christies to assist in the authentication process but decided to not get actively involved since I dont have the time to visit and see it in person - which is clearly a pre-requisite if a valuable opinion is to be provided.

To be clear on this point, Christies knowledge in Star Wars props is I'm sure by their own admission poor - hence they tend to approach known experts in their respective fields, when an "original" item is presented to them.

I have to say that "Original but non-screen used" props are by far the most difficult to confirm provenance on, since essentially we are saying that it was made at the same time as the original screen-used items, but does not come with much of the same evidence that a screen-used item has. As a matter of principle I now almost always ignore any comments made by the sellers themselves - unless they were identifiably tied to the movie and even then take their comments with a huge pinch of salt! Clearly anyone selling an item is hardly going to give the most impartial appraisal and the litany of half truths and down right lies I've heard over recent years has made me weary of such "facts"

In my own mind there are too many unknowns on this specific helmet for me personally to say whether it is "original" or not. In my opinion the only way to be sure of its provenance would be to perform a thorough side by side analysis against a known screen-used dome in order to truly understand its origins.

This is something I was not able to do for this helmet, hence I declined Christies invitation in this instance. If the current owners have been able to do this then good for them, as they would be able to make this data available to potential buyers.

Cheers

Jez

darthvaderv said:

My guess is because the original ESB paint was stripped to reveal ANH markings..restored by JRX..In which the two together become almost a hybrid in a sense...Vadermainia will have to confirm himself for that reason though.

Click to expand...

There was a documentary on an antique/historical painting that was "censored". Some experts did thermal imaging to it and found the artist's original contents underneath. It was an extremely labor intensive effort to remove the very old censorship paint but to not harm the content underneath. I don't recall the painting but it was a very elaborate process that was truly brilliant. Today, the painting now exists in the form the original artist intended it to be.

I don't see how a restoration of this nature turned the original painting into a hybrid.

I see some strong parallels between this and JRX's work with Vadermania's mask.

In my own mind there are too many unknowns on this specific helmet for me personally to say whether it is "original" or not. In my opinion the only way to be sure of its provenance would be to perform a thorough side by side analysis against a known screen-used dome in order to truly understand its origins.

Click to expand...

That's true Jez and it also applies to Gino claiming that it isn't original which is why people jump on him as he says these things all the time with no evidence to back up his statements.
He has his opinion yes but in the end it is only an opinion without a proper comparison but he puts it across like it is indisputable fact.

I love reading this stuff, but getting involved would seem akin to shooting yourself in the head. When I built my Vader, I knew from reading here who to ask and not to ask.

I concur with SHalamar that it is very discourgaing. This preschool thought process of "I know something you dont know" seems to be the discourse amongst self-proclaimed Vader historians. What rift of Armageddon would you expose besides yourself if you did reveal your sources? Would the sledgehammer of all lawsuits fall on you from showing a picture or sharing a respected source or would that be likened to giving "the other" Vader expert your magic bullets, or take away that shining ego in your heart that what you thought you knew was really common knowledge amongst people who searched?

My gosh, I dont know anything about the Vader lids, even though he is my favorite iconic villian and its disheartening to see people go back and forth over such.

My grandfather worked for Reynolds aluminum and was one of the inventors of that soda can on your desk next to you, but I dont hold that as something so dear that all life would be sucked into a black hole if I shared his name with you.

I understand that this thread is about was it made for production..because there is no question it is authentic which we have established..
It is clear it looks like it came off the set..however whether it was a light reference or a souvenir pull who will ever know, just like many Vader auctions in the past, so much mystery.

Vadermainia..while he remains quite and barely posts here is one of the most knowledgable Vader fans IMO..he secretly has enough rare reference material to put most to shame..I have been one of the few just to have a glance at a fraction of his reference material and it is an eye opener for sure...This guy is an elite Vader expert and takes his time in aquiring facts and information properly. This is not ass kissing but simply the truth..

Mac, hybrid..in the sense of the dome is ESB and the ESB faceplate after restoration is now ANH..:thumbsup

Slightly OT..but I'll just say a couple of people have chimed in to say about lack of Vader advice..

I will not spill my resources and rare reference that has taken years to get with building friendships,loyalty and trust..

But if anyone needs any Vader advice especially with ESB which is my chozen preference I would be more than willing to help if I can. :thumbsup

darthvaderv said:

Slightly OT..but I'll just say a couple of people have chimed in to say about lack of Vader advice..

I will not spill my resources and rare reference that has taken years to get with building friendships,loyalty and trust..

But if anyone needs any Vader advice especially with ESB which is my chozen preference I would be more than willing to help if I can. :thumbsup

Click to expand...

Let me clarify. I am not calling out one particular person. I whole-heartedly endorse your sentiment of building trust and loyalty. My post was simply enough of the banner waving of whom is smarter than whom.

Post your thoughts, comments, criticisms in a non egotistical way and folks will earn that trust from one another. Public chest-beating rarely invokes a good response.

GINO said:

Maybe someone here knows someone at NASA that could help him out with that. :lol

Click to expand...

I have read through everything in this thread and this is the most asinine and ignorant statement I think I have ever seen posted on the RPF.

I work in a test lab facility and quite often have to have paint samples analyzed for age, content, additives, etc. Most test labs charge less than $100 depending on the services requested. UL (Underwriters Laboratories) being one of our best resources for paint testing could complete this simple analysis in a weeks time or less if need be, and well within the price quoted above. Beyond just paint, UL can provide analysis for the resins and glass fiber components to date the helmet as well. I haven't had to price this as we work mostly with wooden components at my work, but it is most certainly possible.

So call me NASA if you wish. Next time actually do a little research if you have a suggestion.

CSMacLaren said:

GINO,

I couldn't help but notice that in your past sideswipes at vadermania's helmet on The Prop Den you'd promote your own as "superior" and that it's "provenance is golden". When asked to support that claim, you wouldn't. And here you are blasting something that is not in your possession but that challenges your dominant claims of having the best of the best of the best. In those threads, people weren't even talking about your helmet specifically, but you trolled Den threads to draw attention to your own as the best and the most accurate.

Click to expand...

Well I have no dog in this fight but I have to say, wow. Gino, I don't know you but I've noticed you make some pretty outrageous claims. This whole "none is better than mine" attitude makes me not respect your opinion. Even your signature with the Stormtrooper helmet, what does it say? "The most screen accurate trooper helmet ever made." How could you possibly know that? Are you saying that there is zero possibility that someone else on this entire planet could not have ever made one more accurate???
Wow.
Just wow.
Gino, please don't ever post to any of my threads.
Thank you.

That's exactly what I'm saying. At least to date.
Some people just have a hard time with that.
But this thread isn't about my stuff.

So you personally know everyone on the planet? :confused

Slasher X said:

I have read through everything in this thread and this is the most asinine and ignorant statement I think I have ever seen posted on the RPF.

Click to expand...

Give him a minute

Vader sucks.
Anybody got any pictures of the prototype Threepio feet?

I by no means have a say in this, its for the experts to comment on but with that said, it saddens me to see this back and fourth...he said, she said...and oh yah, its all about a little guy named Darth Vader:love I love these movies! Come on, this is not good for SW or its fans, these jabs should be kept to PM's...You guys are putting all this bad blood out there and to be honest...its just getting really OLD. There is a wealth of knowlege between the parties here and its just gasping for air in all this mucklol Please share something that we DON"T know and quite LORDEN' over each other:rolleyes

~Kevin

Tuskin Scout said:

it saddens me to see this back and fourth...he said, she said...and oh yah,
I love these movies! Come on, this is not good for SW or its fans, these jabs should be kept to PM's...You guys are putting all this bad blood out there and to be honest...its just getting really OLD. There is a wealth of knowlege between the parties here and its just gasping for air in all this muck

Click to expand...

Problem is, when there IS no back and forth, nothing is ever learned. True, nothing is truly resolved, but that's why it's discussion If every conversation ran by PM then forums would be pointless. The basic lesson of heated discussions on a forum like this is thus: When many seasoned experts with years of research and connections make certain facts known and venture an opinion, it's the counter balance to a guy that says EVERYONE IS WRONG BUT ME! It has to be here.
You can't ask everyone to be civil to the point of not disagreeing, it's ridiculous. If you want information, you have to cope with disagreement. Otherwise you have a statement that can't be opposed? Forget it. Don't tell me that a prop was a blender when my dead uncle knows it was a toothbrush, you're spreading disinformation that will cost knowledge; not share it.
Opinions with little or no basis have to be challenged. "Cause I say so" is never worth the keys it's typed with, and it's just as tiresome as these debates that a debate end because people ask for peace instead of progress. If people have to knock heads, that's fine. If you hate reading it, stop reading it. When you see a thread go off-topic and start circling the drain, then that's just how it's going to go.
Self-interests will speak for their benefit(reality notwithstanding), and those with knowledge and an urge to share it are allowed to challenge those interests in favor of the facts. That's debate, that's information, that's people.
It is a shame that people will continue telling tales, but don't tell the messenger with the facts to quit arguing. Truth does not always lay in the middle.
JJ

BingoBongo275 said:

It seems everyone wants to jump on Gino on this thread, however IMO he has raised some important issues.

I was asked by Christies to assist in the authentication process but decided to not get actively involved since I dont have the time to visit and see it in person - which is clearly a pre-requisite if a valuable opinion is to be provided.

To be clear on this point, Christies knowledge in Star Wars props is I'm sure by their own admission poor - hence they tend to approach known experts in their respective fields, when an "original" item is presented to them.

I have to say that "Original but non-screen used" props are by far the most difficult to confirm provenance on, since essentially we are saying that it was made at the same time as the original screen-used items, but does not come with much of the same evidence that a screen-used item has. As a matter of principle I now almost always ignore any comments made by the sellers themselves - unless they were identifiably tied to the movie and even then take their comments with a huge pinch of salt! Clearly anyone selling an item is hardly going to give the most impartial appraisal and the litany of half truths and down right lies I've heard over recent years has made me weary of such "facts"

In my own mind there are too many unknowns on this specific helmet for me personally to say whether it is "original" or not. In my opinion the only way to be sure of its provenance would be to perform a thorough side by side analysis against a known screen-used dome in order to truly understand its origins.

This is something I was not able to do for this helmet, hence I declined Christies invitation in this instance. If the current owners have been able to do this then good for them, as they would be able to make this data available to potential buyers.

Cheers

Jez

Click to expand...

Jez, again I appreciate your highly professional attitude.

Tom