What happened to Vader's motivation in ROTJ?

I know it's been asked before, but I still am not sure where the story was supposed to go with this. Based on FILM canon (not outside official texts or TV series), I am going to make a feeble attempt to lay some ground work here:

In TESB, Vader tries to pull Luke to the Dark Side and join him, so they can overthrow the Emperor and rule together. Vader even says, "The Emperor has forseen this"... and I don't think Vader was lying. Vader really, REALLY wanted Palpatine dead. He failed to turn Luke, then failed to catch him as the Falcon escaped Cloud City (though why Vader didn't reach out with the Force and pull Luke back up to the gantry vane after Luke jumped is beyond me).

In ROTJ, Vader is actively looking for Luke. The Emperor is aware of this, and tells Vader in the DS 2 docking bay, "Patience my friend." And later in the throne room "He (Luke) will come to you (Vader) ; I have forseen it"

As a character, Vader would HAVE TO SUSPECT in ROTJ that Palpatine knows Vader wants to overthrow him as Emperor, right? That Vader needs Luke to team up with him, so they can both combat Palpatine? So Vader KNOWS a big showdown in inevitable, one way or the other. And Vader would also HAVE TO REALIZE that Palpatine wanted to turn Luke to the Dark Side as a REPLACEMENT for Vader. So, bringing Luke to the Emperor means that Vader is signing his own death certificate.

...so why does Vader relent? On Endor, when Luke turns himself over to Vader, Darth has done a COMPLETE 180. No more, "Join me, and together we can rule the galaxy as father and son!" talk anymore. What's different now? Why not try? Vader says it is "too late for me", to turn away from the Dark Side. "The Emperor is your master now. He will teach you the true meaning of the Force/Dark Side" Maybe Vader could sense that he death was imminent, regardless of his actions at this point?

Vader WANTED Palpatine gone, and blew his chance on Cloud City, then when he gets a second chance on Endor, he just gives up? Takes Luke to Palpatine, to watch Luke either turn to the Dark Side (and most likely kill Vader) or Luke be killed by Palpatine? What's the point? How does Vader "win" either way?

P.S. What was Vader going to do with Luke if he DID succeed in freezing Luke in carbonite? Was Vader "impressed" that Luke could actually resist and put up a fight for a while, so Vader decided on the spot to risk it all by telling Luke the truth and begging Luke to team up with him? Or was Vader just going to deliver Luke in carbonite to Palpy for a dethaw? I can accept that Vader was testing Luke all along, and pulling his punches so as to not kill Luke outright, but short of that...

I seem to remember that in the novelization of ROTJ (which the last I was read circa 15 years ago, so don't quote me on that) there was a stream of thought in Vader's head that he needs the Emperor to fully convert Luke, because if he lets Luke kill Palps then chances are he would just return to his friends...maybe coz Luke is more powerful than he was in the end of ESB? I agree it doesn't fully add up with the ending of ESB.
One thing though, remember that "the Sith rule of two" bull*** was nowhere when ESB and Jedi were made so they could have just simply recruited Luke as a new member in the club, it's simply that Palps thought Vader is worth sacrificing if that means he'll have Luke.

As for the freezing business...good question.

I think it gets a little confusing even before ROTJ.

If you look at the Emperor’s call to Vader in ESB (either version) it comes off as if he’s just finding out who Luke Skywalker is, and yet, Vader already has the bulk of the fleet looking for Luke according to the crawl. Seems like Paply should know what’s going on with the fleet, right?

Given I’ve had decades to think it over, I think that the official mission Vader had the fleet on was to find the hidden rebel base— which was pretty much his mission in ANH too. I think he had already discovered by ESB who exactly Luke was, but he wasn’t forthright with that info. He wanted to get to Luke first.

He was riding with the fleet to find the rebels, but really, he wanted Luke, who he knew was with the rebels. He’d already said “That’s the system, and I’m sure Skywalker is with them.” BEFORE Palpatine called. Once that call comes in, Vader realizes The Emperor has also learned who Luke is, and wants him dead.

I think Vader’s plan from go was to get to Luke, turn him, and overthrow the Emperor. When Palpy calls up and is all WE GOTTA KILL THAT FOOL Vader pitches the idea of turning Luke. This has the double purpose of hiding his personal intentions and buying him time. If he makes the Emperor think it is his own idea to turn Luke, then Vader’s desire to find Luke won’t betray his desires, it simply would seem as if he is devoted to the Emperor’s will.

On Bespin he is pretty much testing Luke to see where he’s at in terms of power and skill. He takes him down pretty easy, then gives him the pitch. I was never clear as to why Luke needed to be frozen (I assume cause when you got the mind trick on your side you can escape from anywhere, so better make him completely unable to mentally get to anyone by having him in suspended animation), but I think Vader’s plan was to get Luke in front of The Emperor, push him to the limit, then when Luke broke, they could turn the tables on The Emperor.

This plan is still basically in effect when he gets to Endor. Take Luke to Palpy, push him to the dark, then team up with him.

Where things go sideways for Vader is when Luke surrenders and starts talking about Anakin. That shakes Vader a bit I think, or at least plants a seed.

I don’t think Palpatine knows Vader is out to kill him (screw the 2 Sith rule). I think the whole “strike your father down” is part of the testing. Kind of like an Old Testament style test. If Luke is willing to kill his father, he’s gone dark. That said, once Luke refuses to play the game, Palpatine decides to kill him.

Vader was sticking to his plan, which is why he goaded Luke right up to the end. What he didn’t expect was for Luke to kick his ass, then refuse the call of the dark. That, to me, is what makes Vader spin out and question everything. So when he sees Palpatine about to kill Luke, he snaps and chucks ol’ Palpy off the gantry.

I always thought that after ESB and Vader tells Luke that he's his father, he had about a year to think about that. Maybe the regret started weighing on him and by the time of ROTJ kind of shook off some of the Sith "brainwashing"? I think Anakin did fall because he was doing, in a twisted way, what he thought would help him. Save Padme and stop war in the galaxy. Then when he finds out he has kids, and part of Padme is still alive, he starts questioning what he's doing and maybe he has a reason to fight back.

Ah, finally a Star Wars thread that is enjoyable to read. So tired of bitchin', griping and complaining.

Shall we take bets on how long it takes to turn this into a "I hate TLJ" thread?

Mind games.

I think it all comes down to mind games. Or perhaps one big, high-stakes game of space poker.

- Palpatine wants Luke to turn, so that he can have him take out Vader and be Palpy's new apprentice (whom Palpy will inevitably kill off with another new apprentice later). He knows or strongly suspects that Vader wants to flip Luke to join him against Palpatine, but Palpatine thinks he can convert Luke to his side to kill Vader.

- Vader wants Luke to join with him, to rule by his side. Arguably, this is -- even in ESB -- the "good" left in him. He doesn't want to kill his son; he wants to rule alongside him. He has no intention of, say, upgrading to a new apprentice down the road the way Palpatine does. Vader is counting on Luke's connection to him to let him resist Palpatine after he's turned to the Dark Side, and work with Vader instead.

- Luke gambles that his father still exists somewhere inside Vader, and could be turned against Palpatine. He's not willing to give up on him yet. He thinks if Anakin can be turned back, he can fight with Luke to defeat Palpatine and the Empire.

So, basically, each is figuring that they can flip one of the others to take out the remaining one, and two of them think they have to turn Luke to the Dark Side first. Towards that end, Vader and Palpatine each "need" each other right up until Luke is turned.

Except, Luke doesn't turn, and Vader does as Anakin resurfaces within him.

Yeah its like about halfway through ROTJ, Vader starts just acting as the Emperor's lapdog, and stops with his own plans. Like you said, maybe he sensed the end was coming and gave in.

Yes, Vader does a complete 180 where there was absolutely no hint of this characterization in the previous two films. That very idea never stopped being preposterous to me.

It was one of many inexplicably jarring character shifts in RotJ.

Another was Luke who is suddenly a Jedi. We never got to see him actually unlock his Force potential and in ESB he was still struggling with basic concepts. Suddenly he's a Jedi.

An then there's Han suddenly becoming a hopeless romantic. Really? Han is basically Indiana Jones. Can you imagine Indy going, "I wuv u, Marion"?

The simple answer is that it's because RotJ was terrible. But that's just my opinion.

Nearly every question in ROTJ has an answer that boils down to 'we've only got 110 script pages to wrap this up'.

I read on the back of a limited edition Star Wars cereal box that his motivation changed because of the midichlorians...

Jedifyfe said:

I read on the back of a limited edition Star Wars cereal box that his motivation changed because of the midichlorians...

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10 essential vitamins and 2 scoops of midichlorians in every box!

Maybe Luke's Jedi mind powers were more powerful than Vader and he was actually getting through to him?

I don't know. They are good questions. I'm one of the odd ones out who thinks ROTJ is the best of them all. It might be because I was 5 when it came out and it will always regard it as the coolest one because of the creatures, sets, locations, character arc of Luke becoming a Jedi that was a huge deal (I freaked out when that lightsaber first ignited green)... It was just awesome to me.

Solo4114 said:

Mind games.
- Palpatine wants Luke to turn, so that he can have him take out Vader and be Palpy's new apprentice (whom Palpy will inevitably kill off with another new apprentice later). He knows or strongly suspects that Vader wants to flip Luke to join him against Palpatine, but Palpatine thinks he can convert Luke to his side to kill Vader.

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I never really thought that Palpy actively wanted to have Vader killed or replaced. I always thought that Luke would be another addition to the gang and only at the end he was like "ah well, the boykie is pretty good, so if it's killing the old compressor that flips him over, so be it". In the narration of the OT "the rule of two Sith" and all this concept of "Sith work by betrayal" make absolutely no sense. Those principles hardly make sense in themselves.

dascoyne said:

Can you imagine Indy going, "I wuv u, Marion"?

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You mean this? :lol

niennumb1 said:

Maybe Luke's Jedi mind powers were more powerful than Vader and he was actually getting through to him?

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I guess, that's what Palps says: "He has grown strong, only together can we turn him to the dark side"...Vader for some reason just goes on with that. They were obviously geared up to make Palps the main baddie who can just boss Vader around as he wants.

sztriki said:

I never really thought that Palpy actively wanted to have Vader killed or replaced. I always thought that Luke would be another addition to the gang and only at the end he was like "ah well, the boykie is pretty good, so if it's killing the old compressor that flips him over, so be it". In the narration of the OT "the rule of two Sith" and all this concept of "Sith work by betrayal" make absolutely no sense. Those principles hardly make sense in themselves.

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In a perverse way, the principles kind of do make sense. If the goals of the Sith are the promotion of strength and dominance above all, then it would make sense that the master/apprentice relationship is always rather fraught. It's understood that they will work together, but they may also betray each other at any time if either of them has the ability to do so. The master will use the apprentice's strength for his or her own ends, giving the apprentice the tools to benefit the master. The apprentice, both understand, will seek to gain power as rapidly as possible. Likewise, both understand that at some point, the apprentice will likely try to overthrow the master and become a master themselves. If the apprentice succeeds, the stronger party prevailed and the Sith as a whole grow stronger. If the apprentice fails and is killed, oh well, the master gets a newer, presumably stronger apprentice. In the meantime, they each grow stronger together.

I kinda think about it like the way the "Shadows" function on Babylon 5. They believe that conflict and chaos produce strength and resilience, so every 1000 years or so, they blow up the galaxy and figure whoever survives deserved to survive. The Vorlons, on the other hand, prize order and peace, which sounds great until you stop doing what they want you to do, at which point they wipe you out as a threat. So, their "order" comes at the cost of your freedom and creates a kind of paternalistic relationship with you as the junior partner forever. Neither ends up working out particularly well in the long run, because both are extreme philosophies when fully practiced.

You mean this? :lol
View attachment 834272

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Weird. What movie is that from? Looks like some odd Indy fan film...

I guess, that's what Palps says: "He has grown strong, only together can we turn him to the dark side"...Vader for some reason just goes on with that. They were obviously geared up to make Palps the main baddie who can just boss Vader around as he wants.

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I think a lot of the issues stem from Lucas' shifting goals with the films. It was just one movie, then it was nine movies, then it was three movies and oh my god I'm so tired of making these damn things and would MUCH rather make Willow and Howard the Duck.

Solo4114 said:

In a perverse way, the principles kind of do make sense. If the goals of the Sith are the promotion of strength and dominance above all, then it would make sense that the master/apprentice relationship is always rather fraught. It's understood that they will work together, but they may also betray each other at any time if either of them has the ability to do so. The master will use the apprentice's strength for his or her own ends, giving the apprentice the tools to benefit the master. The apprentice, both understand, will seek to gain power as rapidly as possible. Likewise, both understand that at some point, the apprentice will likely try to overthrow the master and become a master themselves. If the apprentice succeeds, the stronger party prevailed and the Sith as a whole grow stronger. If the apprentice fails and is killed, oh well, the master gets a newer, presumably stronger apprentice. In the meantime, they each grow stronger together.

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Visual representation of the Sith...:lol
[video]https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/017/046/BptVE1JIEAAA3dT.jpg[/video]

Solo4114 said:

Weird. What movie is that from? Looks like some odd Indy fan film...

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Opening a Pandora's box, aren't we...? :lol

Solo4114 said:

I think a lot of the issues stem from Lucas' shifting goals with the films. It was just one movie, then it was nine movies, then it was three movies and oh my god I'm so tired of making these damn things and would MUCH rather make Willow and Howard the Duck.

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Yep exactly. I love how the "story of how it went and how it was planned" keeps changing. Makes it more interesting to keep up.

If there was a whisper function I'd turn it on now though: I actually kinda like Willow still...

Maybe Palpatine was done with the Rule of Two (yeah I know that is in retrospect) at that point because the Jedi were gone? Also keep in mind that Vader saw what happened to Darth Tyrannus when he was no longer needed... I think the moment Luke turned, Palpatine was going to make him kill Vader.

sztriki said:

I never really thought that Palpy actively wanted to have Vader killed or replaced. I always thought that Luke would be another addition to the gang and only at the end he was like "ah well, the boykie is pretty good, so if it's killing the old compressor that flips him over, so be it". In the narration of the OT "the rule of two Sith" and all this concept of "Sith work by betrayal" make absolutely no sense. Those principles hardly make sense in themselves.



You mean this? :lol
View attachment 834272



I guess, that's what Palps says: "He has grown strong, only together can we turn him to the dark side"...Vader for some reason just goes on with that. They were obviously geared up to make Palps the main baddie who can just boss Vader around as he wants.

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Why wouldn't he want to replace him? The rule of two is a Sith concept that either master or apprentice will replace one another. Betrayal and deception is the Sith way. They are meant to dominate all facets of life and the force in their doctrine. Slavery is what built the Sith/Empire of old and new.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Rule_of_Two
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Kaggath

I think at first in ESB Vader saw Luke as a means to an end (to overthrow Palpatine). Luke sensed the good in Vader still, that Anakin Skywalker was trapped in that cyborg husk of a man. Luke redeemed him in the end in ROTJ.

mcoractual said:

Why wouldn't he want to replace him? The rule of two is a Sith concept that either master or apprentice will replace one another. Betrayal and deception is the Sith way. They are meant to dominate all facets of life and the force in their doctrine. Slavery is what built the Sith/Empire of old and new.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Rule_of_Two
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Kaggath

I think at first in ESB Vader saw Luke as a means to an end (to overthrow Palpatine). Luke sensed the good in Vader still, that Anakin Skywalker was trapped in that cyborg husk of a man. Luke redeemed him in the end in ROTJ.

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Because in 1980 and 1983 when ESB and ROTJ were made there was no rule of two or compulsive betrayal anywhere therefore the movies were written without those concept.

sztriki said:

Because in 1980 and 1983 when ESB and ROTJ were made there was no rule of two or compulsive betrayal anywhere therefore the movies were written without those concept.

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While those concepts weren't yet official, I think they were what eventually became part of the vision of Lucas. The Rule of Two is now officially still canon, so it does explain the behavior. If you haven't, give the Darth Bane books a read. Fantastic series.

mcoractual said:

While those concepts weren't yet official, I think they were what eventually became part of the vision of Lucas. The Rule of Two is now officially still canon, so it does explain the behavior. If you haven't, give the Darth Bane books a read. Fantastic series.

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We'd be going down a deep rabbit hole with that and can bring in midichlorians, hyperspace ramming and whatnot else regarding what was and wasn't envisioned originally. In this case I'd just say if it makes sense to each then it's okay, we all kind of cherry-pick what we want to accept as canon anyway.
I'll give those books a looksie, thanks!