Pacing issues.
For everything she does? Ummm, No!
She mentioned she's a pilot *WHEN* they need a pilot vs Kenobi complimenting Luke, Luke mentioning it in other scenes. Just ears necessary for this one.
at 32 seconds
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7hzDzxmWvY
This is Star Wars, not The Princess bride. A great movie, but in TPB they *embrace* the insta-mastery
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0-AYt6gqHU
You're moving the goalposts again.
That's because your argument is bull**** and it's the only way you can make it work. Well, that and consistently applying double standards.
Dan, I have applied standards consistently. Luke flew in a ship, similar to what rebels used. When I backed it up from an outside source...not that it was required, because Luke's flying of a small ships was mentioned in the film, tlj defenders refused to accept it. Rey, on the other hand, did not give the audience *any* evidence of her staggering capabilities until she performed them...and some feats are without *any* prior clue of the skills involved. You *have* to seek outside sources to come *close* to excusing a small portion of Rey's Mary Sue-ness.
And while you just accept it for for Rey, and blanket dismiss it as "just the same for Luke" even though evidence is *right there* in the movie! No wookiepedia needed, just functioning ears and eyes. THAT is the disningenuous apllication of standards.
Consistent and simplified.
The above was your words on the subject. Yours. Not mine. I've highlighted the relevant part. You say Rey doesn't provide *any* evidence of her capabilities until she performs them.
Neither does Luke.
Other people and Luke himself talk about his skills. But we don't actually see them in action until he's actually flying an X-wing. The pacing issue is with the introduction of the
idea that he's a pilot, but you now are relying on it like a crutch to prop up your lame argument that Luke has "earned" his abilities, but Rey is a "Mary Sue."
Rey states that she can fly. Then she flies. Luke states he can fly. Then he flies. You're trying to argue that the fact that Luke said it far enough before it actually happened is a material difference in the "earned" nature of Luke's abilities.
It's not, and that's just bull****.
Except this person fails to acknowledge that Luke's skills were mentioned well in advance.
Well, that's just a flat-out ****ing lie, isn't it,
considering I'm the person who actually highlighted the issue.
This gets at something I see as an underlying flaw that permeates TFA, actually. Information in TFA is introduced at a breakneck pace and doesn't have time to really register with the audience. As a result, it's both easy to forget this or that detail and you end up feeling like not enough has been explained. So, yes, technically both Luke and Rey just talk about their abilities flying, and never actually demonstrate it until they're in the cockpit. But the difference in terms of introducing that information to the audience is as you describe: we're given a bunch of points at which Luke's flying ability is referenced (although his fathers' ability is irrelevant to his own). Obi-Wan says he hears Luke's a good pilot. Luke says he's a good pilot when he meets Han. Luke references his piloting in the Death Star briefing. And in the SE, Biggs talks up Luke's piloting abilities, too. Only after all of that do we see Luke fly.
By contrast, we literally get the information about Rey on the run, and then 10 seconds later she's flying.
The same information has been imparted to the audience, and it holds the same value, but the audience believes one more than the other because it's had time to process and digest that information. We have no reason to believe one more than the other except that the information has been reinforced and allowed to simmer in one case, but not the other.
None of that makes Rey a Mary Sue, though. It is, however, very bad pacing.
There are similar issues with TFA about...well, really about a ton of stuff. How did the First Order rise? Who the hell is Snoke? What are the Knights of Ren and are they served by the Squires of Stimpy? Why does Lor San Tekka (whose name is never even said in the film) have info on Luke? What's the difference between the Republic and the Resistance, and why does it seem like only the Resistance has any weapons?
Sorry! There isn't time to explain any of this! We have rathtars loose on the ship! RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!!!
All of this stuff, I think, goes back to JJ not letting his story breathe, or intentionally withholding information to create a "mystery" about it. In the few slower moments that the film does have, they aren't using it to impart information, but rather to seed questions (e.g. at Maz's castle, which just introduces a ton of questions about Rey and her past). And then, EXPLOSIONS!!!! CHAOS!!! LASER BLASTS!!!! And we're on to the next roller coaster ride.
That, to me, is the really sloppy storytelling in TFA. Not the stuff about why Rey is good with a lightsabre. She's good because of the same reason Luke is: she's strong in the Force and the Force guides her. Well, that and she's a hero in a movie franchise where heroes are just really good at stuff.
But I didn't acknowledge that Luke's skills were mentioned in advance? Like I said: that's a lie.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7hzDzxmWvY&t=37s
Look! Luke even gets to use a lightsaber and learn about the Force!
Did we see any of that for Rey?
The excuse offered is "pacing" which might work for one or two things, but not for everything Rey does.
If "one standard" was "consistently applied," then the "pacing" excuse wouldn't be necessary for only one of the two scenarios.
I did apply one standard. You're the one who apparently is incapable of that. You said there's no evidence offered for Rey's skills, which makes her a Mary Sue. I noted that the same applies to Luke. You said that Luke was trained and Rey was not. You cited to wookieepedia to prove your point. I pointed out that Rey's wookieepedia entry likewise offers proof that she was trained. You dismissed that and said that nothing in the film indicates that she can fly, but Luke's piloting abilities had been mentioned before he flew (as if that's actual proof of his abilities, which it isn't). I noted that Rey literally says she can fly before she flies.
Now you're argument is "Well....well.....uh.....but
Luke had stuff about being a pilot
earlier in the movie than Rey, so that makes his abilities earned, while Rey's aren't."
This is utter nonsense. Luke doesn't "earn" his abilities. We don't see him train as a pilot. We literally never see him fly a ******* thing until he's in his X-wing. Not even his T-16. All we get is
talk about his abilities. But to you, that equals him "earning" his abilities, provided of course that they were talked up
enough. How many scenes would we have to lose before Luke no longer "earns" his piloting abilities, hmm? Does he still "earn" them in the theatrical cut? That one doesn't include the scene at the Yavin base with Biggs saying he's a good pilot. If we drop the reference to his T-16 -- which, within the context of the film alone
we don't even know is an airspeeder in the first place because it's never actually described as one? Still earned then? How about if we cut Luke telling Han that he's a good pilot? Would it still count if all we have is Obi-Wan saying that he's heard Luke's a good pilot? Just the once? Is it a matter of proximity of the information to the actual performance? Ok, so, how many scenes do we have to add back in for Luke to "earn" his abilities? What if it's just the Biggs scene that's the only reference to his piloting? Still earned? How about if we keep the briefing discussion about his T-16 along with the Biggs scene? Is that "earned" enough?
Don't bother answering because your answer doesn't actually matter. Why? Simple. Because
talking about someone's abilities doesn't actually mean they "earned" them. You know what might? A training montage. Or a bunch of earlier sequences that showcase the person's skills in XYZ gradually growing with time. That's how you "earn" abilities: showing the person actually working to improve them. Otherwise, they're just abilities the person has, which aren't earned.
We don't see Luke train in lightsabre combat, either. We see him block blaster shots after Obi-Wan says "Reach out with your feelings." Wow. Such insightful guidance. I guess anyone could be a Jedi then, if they just, you know, reach out with their feelings? Or does it perhaps require that the person have
innate ability which by definition is not earned. After that one scene, we literally never see him train in lightsabre combat ever again. Not once. Prior to that, we see literally no training in any melee combat. But, of course, Luke has "earned" his fabulous abilities with a lightsabre, whereas Rey is "just good at everything." Never mind that we establish early on that Rey is skilled in melee combat. Oh, wait. Forgot. She didn't "earn it." Know who else didn't "earn" their melee combat abilities and was "just good at it"? Obi-Wan. Han Solo didn't "earn" his flying abilities or his gunslinging abilities in ANH. He just shows up and he's good at it. Obi-Wan and Han Solo: both Mary Sues based on how you seem to apply the term.
The simple fact is that people in Star Wars films are very often justgood at stuff as the situation requires. But of course, Rey is the only one where it's a problem.
...you left out the part where I mention Rey overcomes every obstacle in her path vs Luke's failures on instinct and even with training. :facepalm
No, no, no. Your argument is and has been that Luke "earns" his abilities, but Rey does not. Aside from that being bull****, the notion of "But Luke fails and Rey doesn't" is just you changing horses mid-stream. You can't seem to mount a credible, consistent argument, so you try to duck and weave and fling nonsense arguments around in the hopes that doing so will somehow distract from the fact that your argument is crap founded on double standards.
You then literally
lie about what I've actually said and what I've acknowledged, as I have proven above.
This is blatant trolling. You aren't interested in an actual, honest intellectual discussion or even a reasonable debate. You just want to stand around repeatedly ranting about Rey being a Mary Sue, when you don't have a ******* thing to support your argument. When I knock down your arguments -- repeatedly -- you move the goalposts, change the standards, or simply lie about what I've said.
You've got nothing to back up your argument, and you know it.
You're just a troll.
