Rey's terrible very bad Lightsaber skills: Star Wars

That settles it, JJ Abrams is the Mary Sue.

:lol :lol :lol
This thread is so rediculous I've been laughing my butt off every time I'm on break. People are probably wondering what is going on in the honey bucket on my job site! I use the ignore feature but when other people quote I get a glimpse into the madness. :lol :facepalm
I checked bad-asspediea and apparently I can slap Luke and Rey silly at the same time with my mustache alone!
WIN!! :D
 
I enjoy TLJ for the most part. Yes Rey becomes a Mary Sue. She has no training as a force sensitive person, yet can fly the Falcon through a crazy obstical course, MIND trick a stormtrooper, and fell Ben in a duel who was trained by a Jedi... Yes he was hit by Chewies bowcaster... but still.

In TLJ Luke didn't show her squat! He didn't train her at all!! All of a sudden she's an an acomplished duelist with a saber... And can lift a mountain of boulders...

The list of what's wrong with TLJ starts at the very beginning and traverses to the entire film.

The opening battle, or there lack of...
The bomber debacle...
The Poe/Hux exchange...
Luke tossing his saber,
Leia Poppins...
Poe, purple haired tyrant plot mess...
Casino mess...
18 hour fuel mess...
Luke molesting sea cow travesty...
Porgs...
Chewie wont eat the stupid Porg he skinned and cooked...
Snoke is nothing...
Rays parents are gambling drunks...
Riding goofy dear horses...
Crate battle... Why would the FO land so far away?
The whole Crate thing was ideotic...
Lukes force projection and demise, rediculous!
Rey moving mountains of rock...

I'm sure I missed a ton of the idiotic plot points of this debacle. In the end episode Nein has nothing to go on or say to fix the mess
Old Roger Corman films are better than the trash Ruin J made.
 
Luke took literally no hits, except having R2 shot by Vader while he was trying to line up his shot on the Death Star.

Since you otherwise raise good points, I don't want to see this seized on as nullifying the rest of your argument, and the stuff you got right ignored. :p Earlier in the battle, Luke took a glancing hit to the starboard-upper engine. "I'm hit, but it's not bad!" Later, the damaged stabilizer broke loose again during the trench run.

I'll admit, I've wondered over the years how much the Force/Obi-Wan was guiding things. Keeping Luke from being destroyed or crippled by that first hit? Deflecting his ship or the shot to damage a stabilizer, specifically? Cuz a damaged stabilizer would make the ship harder to fly straight and level, and probably make it harder to lock on to. Awfully providential damage, that...

ETA: Also, one thing you missed regarding Rey. After their escape from Jakku, when she and Finn are talking over each other, she says, of her flying experience, that she's "flown some ships, but never left the planet". So, per the film, she has demonstrably more experience than Luke who, while a (quite a good) pilot, yes, seems to have only flown the one light airspeeder.

ETA2: Finn is a Stormtrooper, not a janitor. He received top marks in training and was leader of his four-man training cadre. First Order Stormtroopers, after over a decade of training and preparation, weren't just sitting on benches waiting for the First Order to go public. They did grunt work. FN-2187 unfortunately got stuck with latrine duty. He was trained and skilled in all manner of melee and blaster weapons. There's semi-accepted stuff that lightsabers, while most effective in the hands of trained Force-wielders, are not unknown and others can be and have been trained in their use. Including an elite group of Stormtroopers by VADER. So I had no issue with his being able to do more than flail uselessly with one.

And no amount of training can ever prepare someone for actual combat. The reality of it was more than he could deal with, and it took him actually finding a cause he believed in and people he cared about and who cared about him for him to overcome that and rise to the occasion.

Plus, he wasn't a pilot, being the other thing being discussed. That was why he needed Poe. ;)
 
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It would be nice it Ep. 9 could fix this mess, but it will probably just create a whole new mess in the process.
I know that the Force Awakens was trying to show how powerful Rey is, and how Last Jedi messed it up and all.
One thing, of many of course, that bothered me in Awakens, is when she mind controls the storm trooper. How would she even know thats a possible power she has without someone telling her. If they even had her see someone do it at some point, and then she decideds to try it, then more believable.
Probably the best and probably only way to try and explain any of this is show that she was somewhat trained at a very young age, and that its kinda coming back to her now.
 
One thing, of many of course, that bothered me in Awakens, is when she mind controls the storm trooper. How would she even know thats a possible power she has without someone telling her.

When she resisted Kylo's mind probe, she was drawing on the Force without realizing it. He pushed harder, she pushed back harder -- hard enough to reverse it and look into his mind. She basically absorbed a lot of his skills in the process and, over the rest of the film, they started popping up for her in relevant moments. How much was her mind putting things together and how much was the Force working through her I can't say. This is one of the things Dan called out as going by too fast. I caught it on first viewing, but a lot of people didn't, and some never caught it at all. Something that important to plot and character growth, it's on the filmmaker to be clear, and JJ wasn't.
 
When she resisted Kylo's mind probe, she was drawing on the Force without realizing it. He pushed harder, she pushed back harder -- hard enough to reverse it and look into his mind. She basically absorbed a lot of his skills in the process and, over the rest of the film, they started popping up for her in relevant moments. How much was her mind putting things together and how much was the Force working through her I can't say. This is one of the things Dan called out as going by too fast. I caught it on first viewing, but a lot of people didn't, and some never caught it at all. Something that important to plot and character growth, it's on the filmmaker to be clear, and JJ wasn't.

Acquiring the skills without any formal introduction, *is* the Mary Sue concept, not just "fast-pacing."
And I had mentioned before, Rey probing Kylo...not just resisting him. A lot of these Mary Sue aspects have been mentioned before.
Just like Rey's first force pull, she pulls Luke's lightsaber so much harder than Kylo, that Kylo has to get out of the way!! Vs Luke in the Wampa cave, who already knew about the force, had to relax and was lucky to get his light saber to hop three feet into his hand.

Fast-pacing may have been acceptable once, but not for everything single impressive thing she does. That *is* the Mary Sue concept.
 
When she resisted Kylo's mind probe, she was drawing on the Force without realizing it. He pushed harder, she pushed back harder -- hard enough to reverse it and look into his mind. She basically absorbed a lot of his skills in the process and, over the rest of the film, they started popping up for her in relevant moments. How much was her mind putting things together and how much was the Force working through her I can't say. This is one of the things Dan called out as going by too fast. I caught it on first viewing, but a lot of people didn't, and some never caught it at all. Something that important to plot and character growth, it's on the filmmaker to be clear, and JJ wasn't.


It’s possible that Luke would have figured this out concerning Rey’s Force abilities ( along with the viewing audience who were confused by her knowledgeable actions ) in Episode VIII , but , you know - RJ just had to subvert our expectations and what had come before , along with ideas planted in TFA didn’t he !?


:cheersGed
 
Since you otherwise raise good points, I don't want to see this seized on as nullifying the rest of your argument, and the stuff you got right ignored. [emoji14] Earlier in the battle, Luke took a glancing hit to the starboard-upper engine. "I'm hit, but it's not bad!" Later, the damaged stabilizer broke loose again during the trench run.

I'll admit, I've wondered over the years how much the Force/Obi-Wan was guiding things. Keeping Luke from being destroyed or crippled by that first hit? Deflecting his ship or the shot to damage a stabilizer, specifically? Cuz a damaged stabilizer would make the ship harder to fly straight and level, and probably make it harder to lock on to. Awfully providential damage, that...

ETA: Also, one thing you missed regarding Rey. After their escape from Haiku, when she and Finn are talking over each other, she says, of her flying experience, that she's "flown some ships, but never left the planet". So, per the film, she has demonstrably more experience than Luke who, while a (quite a good) pilot, yes, seems to have only flown the one light airspeeder.

ETA2: Finn is a Stormtrooper, not a janitor. He received top marks in training and was leader of his four-man training cadre. First Order Stormtroopers, after over a decade of training and preparation, weren't just sitting on benches waiting for the First Order to go public. They did grunt work. FN-2187 unfortunately got stuck with latrine duty. He was trained and skilled in all manner of melee and blaster weapons. There's semi-accepted stuff that lightsabers, while most effective in the hands of trained Force-wielders, are not unknown and others can be and have been trained in their use. Including an elite group of Stormtroopers by VADER. So I had no issue with his being able to do more than flail uselessly with one.

And no amount of training can ever prepare someone for actual combat. The reality of it was more than he could deal with, and it took him actually finding a cause he believed in and people he cared about and who cared about him for him to overcome that and rise to the occasion.

Plus, he wasn't a pilot, being the other thing being discussed. That was why he needed Poe. ;)
Ah, you're right. I'd forgotten about Luke. And admittedly, I hadn't bothered to look at Finn's wookieepedia page and haven't read the novels.

I do think that, again, his backstory and explanation for his abilities is something that could have been made clearer but for the pacing issues in TFA. That movie just has so damn much happening at any given time that it never seems able to actually convey info about the characters.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
 
I think the reason you say this, is because you're a female. #Girl Power run AMOK!! Sounds pretty feminist to me.

Actually, that is in my signature because The Wook coined it when downplaying Rey...just as you now do. I took it and decided to wear it as a badge of honour. The Wook actually thought it quite amusing and even praised me for it. He could be good natured like that.

You? I'm thinking not so much.

The other line in my signature comes from someone else who once upon a time trolled me. Who knows...? I might gain another signature line from you, one day ;)
 
Basically stemming from people who either love or hate TFA & TLJ.

There is WAY more subtlety to our fandom than that. But to try to distill it down to US vs. THEM, THIS vs. THAT, A vs. B... is a short sighted way to truncate things and make them fit into your narrative. It is a VERY narrow view of fandom. For example, it isn't merely a question of whether you "Love TFA & TLJ" or "Hate" them. There are many who fall in between. But since you don't seem to be able to think in any terms besides Black/White, Love/Hate.... I'm beginning to think you might be a Sith :lol
 
Ah, you're right. I'd forgotten about Luke. And admittedly, I hadn't bothered to look at Finn's wookieepedia page and haven't read the novels.

I do think that, again, his backstory and explanation for his abilities is something that could have been made clearer but for the pacing issues in TFA. That movie just has so damn much happening at any given time that it never seems able to actually convey info about the characters.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

Pacing issues.

For everything she does? Ummm, No!

She mentioned she's a pilot *WHEN* they need a pilot vs Kenobi complimenting Luke, Luke mentioning it in other scenes. Just ears necessary for this one.

at 32 seconds

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7hzDzxmWvY

This is Star Wars, not The Princess bride. A great movie, but in TPB they *embrace* the insta-mastery

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0-AYt6gqHU
 
Rey has never flown anything, trained on a simulator, hitting TIE fighters with blind shots from the millenium falcon's locked turret. As if the simulator had a setting for "locked belly turret, blibg shot" mode.

Uhhh... that was Finn, Honey. Rey was flying then, so......

Kylo knocks Rey out with the wave of his hand in one scene. The next scene Rey is reading Kylo's mind!

She was reading his mind as he was reading hers. As Kylo himself stated, she was strong with the Force, but untrained...more powerful than she knew. But once that door was cracked open (his mind probe) it awakened her to the Force as well, and over the course of the rest of the movie we see her abilities grow... just as Kylo said they would.



Rey out force pulls a lightsaber over kylo. Luke was able to, with alot of trouble, pull a lightsaber 3 feet EDIT : in the wompa cave. He didnt have seasoned Kylo as competition EDIT: fighting over the same weapon.

A. Kylo isn't exactly "Seasoned"

B. We were told in TFA and again in TLJ that as Kylo rose in the Dark, so too Rey was being raised in the light, to be his perfect foil. This shouldn't come as a shock to you.

So yes, Rey is a Mary Sue, given significantly greater skills than Luke without any guidance.

She WAS given guidance.
 
Acquiring the skills without any formal introduction, *is* the Mary Sue concept, not just "fast-pacing."
And I had mentioned before, Rey probing Kylo...not just resisting him. A lot of these Mary Sue aspects have been mentioned before.
Just like Rey's first force pull, she pulls Luke's lightsaber so much harder than Kylo, that Kylo has to get out of the way!! Vs Luke in the Wampa cave, who already knew about the force, had to relax and was lucky to get his light saber to hop three feet into his hand.

Fast-pacing may have been acceptable once, but not for everything single impressive thing she does. That *is* the Mary Sue concept.

Did she Force Pull that lightsaber? Did she?

It was always my impression that as Kylo pulled on it, the Force redirected it to Rey because that is where the Force wanted it to go. Did you not see the ultra stunned look on her face when she found it in her hand? Even if that isn't the case, and she did in fact instincively reach for the saber and the Force lept out and brought it to her, the surprised look still plays because she'd have had no idea she was capable of that until she tried it.

Act on Instinct.

Who else was told to do that? Hmmm?
 
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Who gave the guidance?

Claiming Kylo using his skills is another Mary Sue. The "anything can do, I can do better," song, and instantly with no training.

Not like Luke used lightning on the emporer after the emporer showed him.
 
And if instinct is the "guidance" well, that is the Mary Sue. Whether you already knew it or instantly did it based instinct, both are overpowered and an excuse for a weak story and writing...unless you intended for the character to be a Mary Sue.

Igboring Kylo's training furthers the Mary Sue narative. Kylo was trained by his Uncle...THEE Luke Skywalker. Meanwhile, ho hum, Rey schools him.

Meanwhile, Luke, needed training, needed guidance, even received guidance from the dead! Had other peoole compliment his talents in advance of him displaying them.

That is a significant difference between the two
 
Uhhh... that was Finn, Honey. Rey was flying then, so......


She WAS given guidance.

Well, here's a great video explaining how no one watching the movie would have ANY clue that Rey was a pilot

Until, um...they actually NEEDED a pilot.



Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdEzeKdHtcU

"We need a pilot!"

"We've got one!"

"You?!"

And then she flies the ****ing ship.



One standard. Consistently applied. Luke and Rey are the same. Both Mary Sues, or both with earned abilities. I'll let you pick which it is.

Except this person fails to acknowledge that Luke's skills were mentioned well in advance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7hzDzxmWvY&t=37s

Look! Luke even gets to use a lightsaber and learn about the Force!

Did we see any of that for Rey?

The excuse offered is "pacing" which might work for one or two things, but not for everything Rey does.

If "one standard" was "consistently applied," then the "pacing" excuse wouldn't be necessary for only one of the two scenarios.
 
Uhhh... you failed to answer my question.

You stated that if someone relies on instinct as guidance, that makes them a Mary Sue. I want you to say yes or no that this is what you truly mean.
 
Really?

REALLY?

So if I understand your statement correctly, you're saying that if someone lets go of their conscious self, and instead acts on instinct... that makes them a Mary Sue? Have I got that right?

Just want to clarify

Absolutely!

Someone with NO TRAINING Defeats Seasoned people who have TRAINED for YEARS!

That is the definition of a Mary Sue. No training, insta-mastery *OR* having skills readily available without any prior mention as well. It is INSTANT Overpowered Proficiency.
Lazy writers just throw Rey into any scenario and she succeeds! Luke got zapped, hand cut off, even with Ben's and Yoda's training and with Vader *not* wanting to kill him.
 
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