Rey's terrible very bad Lightsaber skills: Star Wars
- Thread starter CWDevine
- Start date
Solo4114
Master Member
Of course, nothing in the films ever makes any connection between the T-16 and the X-Wing. That's all ancillary material that was, if I remember correctly, originally added with the West End Games Star Wars Role Playing Game, and which helped explain Luke's familiarity with the X-wing when otherwise he'd just be magically good at flying and wouldn't have "earned" his ability. But, since we've now established that Wookieepedia is a valid source, rather than something external to the films and therefore invalid, I'd like to post a few points of interest here.
First, regarding Rey's melee abilities, specifically with a quarterstaff:
Regarding her being "good at everything," especially with respect to linguistic skills, knowledge of people and events, piloting abilities, and mastery of technical specs for starships:
Although it isn't mentioned in her wookieepedia article, apparently the Last Jedi novel explains that Rey effectively "downloaded" a large number of abilities from Kylo Ren during his mind-probe of her. Now, normally, I'd discount what doesn't appear on the screen, but hey, since apparently it's fine to cite to wookieepedia -- which itself also incorporates off-screen events from things like novels and comic books -- then I think it's fair game to say that much of Rey's power comes as a result of the explanation contained in the Last Jedi novelization, which explains:
All of this suggests that Rey isn't just some "Mary Sue," and that her abilities actually come as a result of her experiences.
Compare all of that to Luke, whose wookieepedia page only references him training in the use of a lightsabre (1) with Obi-Wan on the Falcon, and (2) with some training remotes that he found in another temple and with Obi-Wan's instruction for a few days. Everything else with respect to his training never mentions lightsabre training specifically. Yoda trains Luke, but it doesn't say that he's trained to use a lightsabre.
Likewise, Rey's entry discusses how Luke trains her, but he also doesn't seem to teach her any lightsabre abilities.
So, basically, neither of them has much by way of formal training with a lightsabre. They're apparently good at using it because of their respective incredibly strong connections with the Force. Much like they're good at a lot of other stuff.
Of course, if wookieepedia isn't really a reliable source, because it includes a whole range of things that never appeared or were explained in the films, then we're left with even more by way of these two characters being "magical orphans." We also can't claim that flying a T-16 is anything remotely comparable to flying an X-wing, nor can we claim that Obi-Wan did more than give Luke a 10 minute lesson in blocking blaster bolts with his sabre, with that being LITERALLY the only melee combat training he ever has, as opposed to Rey's apparent ability with her quarterstaff at least demonstrating some ability for melee combat, albeit not one that would directly translate into lightsabre skill.
Either they're "magical orphans" with similar "unearned" abilities (one might argue both Mary Sues/Gary Stus), or there are explanations for both of their levels of ability and everything else they basically get from incredibly strong connections to the Force.
Which is a long way of saying that this entire debate about Rey's ligthsabre abilities is basically just another way of bitching about how she's a Mary Sue, which is a stupid argument in the first place laced with unconscious sexism, because Luke is just as much of a Mary Sue as she is and CAN WE PLEASE MOVE THE **** ON FROM ALL OF THIS?!
First, regarding Rey's melee abilities, specifically with a quarterstaff:
Regarding her being "good at everything," especially with respect to linguistic skills, knowledge of people and events, piloting abilities, and mastery of technical specs for starships:
Although it isn't mentioned in her wookieepedia article, apparently the Last Jedi novel explains that Rey effectively "downloaded" a large number of abilities from Kylo Ren during his mind-probe of her. Now, normally, I'd discount what doesn't appear on the screen, but hey, since apparently it's fine to cite to wookieepedia -- which itself also incorporates off-screen events from things like novels and comic books -- then I think it's fair game to say that much of Rey's power comes as a result of the explanation contained in the Last Jedi novelization, which explains:
All of this suggests that Rey isn't just some "Mary Sue," and that her abilities actually come as a result of her experiences.
Compare all of that to Luke, whose wookieepedia page only references him training in the use of a lightsabre (1) with Obi-Wan on the Falcon, and (2) with some training remotes that he found in another temple and with Obi-Wan's instruction for a few days. Everything else with respect to his training never mentions lightsabre training specifically. Yoda trains Luke, but it doesn't say that he's trained to use a lightsabre.
Likewise, Rey's entry discusses how Luke trains her, but he also doesn't seem to teach her any lightsabre abilities.
So, basically, neither of them has much by way of formal training with a lightsabre. They're apparently good at using it because of their respective incredibly strong connections with the Force. Much like they're good at a lot of other stuff.
Of course, if wookieepedia isn't really a reliable source, because it includes a whole range of things that never appeared or were explained in the films, then we're left with even more by way of these two characters being "magical orphans." We also can't claim that flying a T-16 is anything remotely comparable to flying an X-wing, nor can we claim that Obi-Wan did more than give Luke a 10 minute lesson in blocking blaster bolts with his sabre, with that being LITERALLY the only melee combat training he ever has, as opposed to Rey's apparent ability with her quarterstaff at least demonstrating some ability for melee combat, albeit not one that would directly translate into lightsabre skill.
Either they're "magical orphans" with similar "unearned" abilities (one might argue both Mary Sues/Gary Stus), or there are explanations for both of their levels of ability and everything else they basically get from incredibly strong connections to the Force.
Which is a long way of saying that this entire debate about Rey's ligthsabre abilities is basically just another way of bitching about how she's a Mary Sue, which is a stupid argument in the first place laced with unconscious sexism, because Luke is just as much of a Mary Sue as she is and CAN WE PLEASE MOVE THE **** ON FROM ALL OF THIS?!
CWDevine
Legendary Member
I think most of you guys need to go back and watch the OT all over again.
Luke had piloting skills from flying the T-16. regardless of going into space. Rey flies the Millienum Falcon, a much more complex ship and does it with a ease. She even flies it into space??? Has she ever done that before...NOPE!
Luke is a novice in lightsaber fighting, which is why Vader was clearly toying with him, because he knew Luke couldn't win. So his moves are justified, because this was his first encounter. He really didn't know what he was getting himself into.
But Rey, knows how to use the lightsaber and actually defeats Kylo??? Whether her swinging skills are great or not, she defeats a guy who's been doing this longer than her???
As I said the problem lies in two people, Abrams and Johnson.
Luke had piloting skills from flying the T-16. regardless of going into space. Rey flies the Millienum Falcon, a much more complex ship and does it with a ease. She even flies it into space??? Has she ever done that before...NOPE!
Luke is a novice in lightsaber fighting, which is why Vader was clearly toying with him, because he knew Luke couldn't win. So his moves are justified, because this was his first encounter. He really didn't know what he was getting himself into.
But Rey, knows how to use the lightsaber and actually defeats Kylo??? Whether her swinging skills are great or not, she defeats a guy who's been doing this longer than her???
As I said the problem lies in two people, Abrams and Johnson.
Paul Andrew
Master Member
The problem lies in giving Luke a pass and not Rey.
CWDevine
Legendary Member
Are you trying to say that if this were a guy instead I wouldn't have an issue with this? You are beyond wrong. Even if it were "Ray" and the character did the very same things, without any kind of background explanation, I would feel exactly the same.
When Kingdom of the Crystal Skull was first announced, it was reported that Natalie Portman was supposed to play as Indy's daughter. I thought that idea was great! Intelligence and curiosity of Indy with the spunkiness and liberal ways of Marion. Would have been great to see this during the 50's era. But instead, we got Mutt Williams. :facepalm
So a female character playing a lead role or important role is always fine by me. I Love Ripley!!!!!!!
CWDevine
Legendary Member
The problem lies in poor writing.
I agree with you but I'm not sure if it's warranted to play the "sexism" card.
While I don't have a problem with Rey at all, I can understand how some folks might have a problem with her simply because they are so much bonded the core Lucas characters that it would be a hard sell to accept someone new written by someone other than Lucas. I could just as easily imagine Rey's part being played by some 20 year old redheaded guy and folks being just as harsh on him.
We didn't question Luke in ANH only because there was no SW canon to reference and no organized internet-savvy fandom to question it.
By the time of TFA there's a few decades of lore and a vast fandom ready to pick apart anything non-Lucas.
I've been guilty of the same principle. There's no way I can imagine GotG 3 without James Gunn. No matter who does GotG 3, if it's not Gunn, you bet I'm going to take it apart with forceps and a magnifying glass. I had the same skepticism with Blade Runner 2049 - which pulled off a miracle and I loved tremendously. (For the record I don't imagine in my wildest dreams GotG 3 being as intensely personal without Gunn).
I wasn't as fanatical about taking TFA apart probably because IMO Lucas lost touch with SW after ESB.
Last edited:
Zuiun
Sr Member
Tell ya what... kill your father and then take a bowcaster blast to your gut and then come back here and tell us how easy it is to do pretty much anything, much less wander out into the middle of the woods and engage in a lightsaber duel with someone who literally just invaded your mind not that long ago.
This argument against Rey has been a text-book example of cherry picking.
Solo4114
Master Member
Ok, that's fair. It's possible that this has much more to do with a Lucas/OT-centric view of things completely unrelated to Rey being a woman. But that said, I do think that there's latent sexism involved in a lot of the criticism that probably wouldn't be as pronounced if it was some random young man. I'm not saying it's necessarily a conscious notion that women are inferior, but rather that something just isn't "right" about it in a much more pronounced way when it's a woman rather than if it were a man. I think if it were a man, you'd see a lot more complaining about TFA being some dumb rehash of ANH, and a lot less about "He's a Gary Stu!"
CWDevine
Legendary Member
Apparently, he wasn't using the 'Darkside of the Force'. I didn't write this scene, so you may channel this at Abrams. :lol Finn should have easily defeated him to and he clearly had no idea of how to use a lightsaber!
mcoractual
Well-Known Member
I'll play on a card NOBODY mentioned from the Force Awakens...but first, some context.
With that in mind. This.
Finn *can* hear that based upon the reaction his body gives and the audio of screams in the background. Does this mean he has latent force sensitivity...?
Thoughts? Is this just somehow forgotten? I blame a lot of the bad writing and missed opportunities on having two different people in charge of the various movies. Consider it a spliced versions of supposedly the same vision.
With that in mind. This.
Finn *can* hear that based upon the reaction his body gives and the audio of screams in the background. Does this mean he has latent force sensitivity...?
Thoughts? Is this just somehow forgotten? I blame a lot of the bad writing and missed opportunities on having two different people in charge of the various movies. Consider it a spliced versions of supposedly the same vision.
Last edited by a moderator:
It was the NPR radio drama originally. When they arrived at the Yavin base, Biggs heard the hubbub and when he saw it was Luke, he vouched for his piloting skills and got him in to be checked out on the simulator. That's also where the similarity of controls was mentioned -- a thing the maker of both craft (T-16 and T-65) did deliberately to streamline pilot training. The radio drama drew inspiration from the at-the-time-deleted scene where Luke is reunited with Biggs right before the battle, but stretched out into two parts -- the reunion and the "are you coming up with us?" part after the sim time and Artoo's data being analyzed.
I tend to tacitly count deleted scenes and lines in the scripts unless and until something further along contradicts. Several sources show the deleted bits of Luke's training on Dagobah where 1) early on Yoda tosses a small metal bar at Luke without warning, Luke lights up, swings, and misses completely, and Yoda says "were you a Jedi, the bar would be in seven pieces"; then 2) shortly before his premature departure to go rescue his friends, Yoda does this again, and Luke manages to cut the bar into four pieces, showing his improvement, but not yet mastery. Part of the general training montage that was cut was also Luke training with multiple remotes.
mcoractual
Well-Known Member
Then why include the screaming in that shot if he can't hear it? For us? Doesn't that break the 4th wall?
Solo4114
Master Member
Ah, ok. That makes sense. I knew I'd heard it decades ago, but couldn't remember where. I'm pretty sure it made its way into the WEG stuff, too, which I've looked at more recently.
That would've helped somewhat, except that it would simply suggest that Luke is more in-tune with the Force rather than that he's had actual combat training. And, of course, we don't know how long Luke's training with Yoda actually lasted. (The films are never really clear about time or even sequence in some cases.)
TLJ actually suffers from this as well. Rey is apparently trained in 3 days or so by Luke. But the fleet chase seems to take a matter of hours? It seems to suggest either that the fleet chase took waaaaaaaay longer, or that Rey left before the fleet chase happened, and what we see isn't actually happening in the sequence shown on screen.
CWDevine
Legendary Member
Maybe the humans/aliens leaving Maz Kanata's Castle? Sorry, but Finn doesn't appear to be "Force" intuitive at all.
Solo4114
Master Member
Yeah, it's just the noises of the crowd. You hear screaming on Hosnian Prime and then the planet explodes. Then you hear people screaming or shouting outside Maz's castle. Then Finn shows up. That's all it is. I'm not sure how it would be interpreted otherwise?
Yeahhhhhh... The passage of time within and between films is something that's bugged me for years. All the way back to ANH. Artoo and Chewie are well into a game of holochess, Luke's well into whatever Obi-Wan is trying to impart and gettign familiar with the lightsaber. So, what an hour? Less? More? But then Han comes in out of the cockpit, where he's apparently remained to keep an eye on their trail to watch for pursuit, as that's what he mentions as soon as he's in the main hold. Then says they'll be arriving at Alderaan "about oh-two-hundred hours". Then, literally less than three minutes later, the navicomputer alerts that they're close to reversion point. Why bother giving an ETA instead of "we'll be there in a couple minutes -- might wanna finish up whatever that is you're doing"? Was the trip really only about half an hour?
And on and on. How long really passed between Star Wars and Empire? The figure has been all over the place since day one. Likewise, Empire and Jedi.
But it is the biggest reason I object to the low-on-gas mechanic in TLJ. The eighteen-hour figure quoted doesn't jibe with Rey's side of the story. Even if she left right after they got back from destroying the Starkiller, even if the First Order took a bit to muster and get to the Resistance base. It's all just too compressed even within the context of dodgy time-passage that's been de rigeur with Star Wars from the beginning.
jusdrewit
Sr Member
Part of the problem is there are no little clues that Rey is an amazing pilot, she just is. Here is a quote from ANH script:
RED LEADER
Are you... Luke Skywalker? Have you been checked out on the Incom T-sixty-five?
BIGGS
Sir, Luke is the best bushpilot in the outer rim territories.
Red Leader pats Luke on the back as they stop in front of
his fighter.
RED LEADER
I met your father once when I was
just a boy, he was a great pilot.
You'll do all right. If you've got
half of your father's skill, you'll
do better than all right.
LUKE
Thank you, sir. I'll try.
By dropping these little lines in a movie, it helps so much as it establishes that Luke is an outstanding pilot and it leads us to believe he could pilot a X-wing and we can suspend belief. Rey didn't have this, she's just magically good at piloting the Falcon, can do a force persuasion with no training, defeat Kylo in lightsaber combat with no training, the list goes on and on. It further gets worse as TFA and TLJ have no time to breathe because before we know it she's fighting elite Praetorian guards less that 42-72 hrs after TFA started lol the years between ANH/ESB allow to us to further believe that Luke grows and gets more powerful and as a storyteller allows some of those freedoms Rey doesn't get to have. I mean Luke moving the lightsaber in the wampa's cave was a big moment and that was over a year after ANH. If Luke had Rey's learning curve, he would've fought Vader in ANH and this story would be over lol. This just goes back to poor planning and storytelling by Abrams/Rian.
Last edited:
Solo4114
Master Member
I see that more as establishing that Luke is the son of an excellent pilot. (It's also a really clunkily-scripted scene, which is probably why it was cut.)
And since it was cut, we get exactly the same info about Luke and his piloting abilities as we get about Rey. And we end up having to turn to external, not-in-the-finished-film sources for background info on both of them, which explains their familiarity with the ships they fly and their overall skill.
Similar threads
