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  1. Joek3rr's Avatar
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    Feb 10, 2018, 11:51 PM - Empire Strikes Back Graflex Screws??? What your opinion? #1

    So I just got my shipping notification for TGS Graflex, with that in mind I am going to start the preliminaries for the build.

    And with that said I have a burning question, and I'm looking for people's opinions. You see I intend on doing the Bespin build. But while a lot of research has been done, there is one element that is really blurry. And that is whether or not the top's of the T-track grips should have screws? Here are some pictures to help! (These come from SethS lightsaber guidebook, so credits to him and all those who helped put that book together! Thanks!)
    Click image for larger version. 

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    So as you can see the Dagobah version has these added screws to the front the grips. BUT does the Bespin version? The running theory is; if it's the same prop, then yes. If it's not, then no. So what are your guy's opinions, should I include these extra screws?

    Thanks for helping a noob!
  2. Mance Vader RPF Premium Member MCM's Avatar
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    Feb 11, 2018, 10:58 AM - Re: Empire Strikes Back Graflex Screws??? What your opinion? #2

    They're m2 cheesehead slotted screws. I just ordered a metric gaggle of them, so if you need some, let me know! I'm fairly certain the same screws are used on the ESB/ROTJ Vader hero, too.

    Sent from my SM-J700P using Tapatalk
  3. RPF Premium Member halliwax's Avatar
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    Feb 11, 2018, 12:35 PM - Re: Empire Strikes Back Graflex Screws??? What your opinion? #3

    Oh no here we go!!! Gentlemen get in your corners! Ding ding ding!!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
  4. Jedi Reali's Avatar
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    Feb 11, 2018, 2:39 PM - Re: Empire Strikes Back Graflex Screws??? What your opinion? #4

    I wouldn't include them on a Bespin build. If I recall correctly there's nothing to prove or disprove their presence on Bespin, but from all the research I've read on here they seem to have been added later on in production. Dagobah was shot later in production and the prop seems to get more "messed up" during this time, which might account for the addition of these extra screws. We don't know for sure, we just kinda have to extrapolate an educated guess based on what we do know.
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    Feb 11, 2018, 4:41 PM - Re: Empire Strikes Back Graflex Screws??? What your opinion? #5

    Dagobah was shot before Bespin. We know they are on the Ranch Saber and they are slotted. However if you look very closely at Seth's bottom right pic they look like very small Philips head screws. On my latest build I used the screws from vhs tapes which match almost exactly. Here's a pic of my saber which I included those screws. In low light you would never know they were there which Bespin was filmed in.
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  6. RPF Premium Member kalkamel's Avatar
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    Feb 12, 2018, 12:45 AM - Re: Empire Strikes Back Graflex Screws??? What your opinion? #6

    Screws?? Wait... weren't they rivets????
    ...
    ...
    ...
    ...
    ...

    Joking!
  7. SethS's Avatar
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    Feb 12, 2018, 12:52 AM - Re: Empire Strikes Back Graflex Screws??? What your opinion? #7

    I’ve decided to add them to mine. Seeing them on Dagobah is enough for me as I consider my build idealized given that the main thing that sets the ESB belt hangers apart is broken or missing parts.
  8. russellsch's Avatar
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    Feb 12, 2018, 7:21 AM - Re: Empire Strikes Back Graflex Screws??? What your opinion? #8

    halliwax said: View Post
    Oh no here we go!!! Gentlemen get in your corners! Ding ding ding!!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Click image for larger version. 

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  9. RPF Premium Member
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    Feb 12, 2018, 8:09 AM - Re: Empire Strikes Back Graflex Screws??? What your opinion? #9

    Jedi Reali said: View Post
    I wouldn't include them on a Bespin build. If I recall correctly there's nothing to prove or disprove their presence on Bespin, but from all the research I've read on here they seem to have been added later on in production. Dagobah was shot later in production and the prop seems to get more "messed up" during this time, which might account for the addition of these extra screws. We don't know for sure, we just kinda have to extrapolate an educated guess based on what we do know.
    Agreed
  10. RPF Premium Member
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    Feb 12, 2018, 8:18 AM - Re: Empire Strikes Back Graflex Screws??? What your opinion? #10

    REVANSSkywalker said: View Post
    Dagobah was shot before Bespin. We know they are on the Ranch Saber and they are slotted. However if you look very closely at Seth's bottom right pic they look like very small Philips head screws. On my latest build I used the screws from vhs tapes which match almost exactly. Here's a pic of my saber which I included those screws. In low light you would never know they were there which Bespin was filmed in.
    Are you sure about that?

    According to the Rinzler "Making of Empire" book, the Dagobah scenes were some of the last live-action scenes filmed for the movie, between August and September of 1979. The wrap party itself took place on the Dagobah set.

    The Bespin scenes were filmed earlier.

    So, it would seem that the Bespin version of the belt hanger pre-dates the Dagobah version of the belt hanger. Someone please check me on that.

    Here are my versions of the "Skywalker Ranch" and "Dagobah Belt Hanger" hilts using vintage screws I purchased in a "grab bag" at an antique store:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by ALLEY; Feb 12, 2018 at 8:53 AM.
  11. Member Since
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    Feb 12, 2018, 8:26 AM - Re: Empire Strikes Back Graflex Screws??? What your opinion? #11

    According to Seth's book the Bespin scenes were shot after Dagobah.
  12. RPF Premium Member
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    Feb 12, 2018, 8:46 AM - Re: Empire Strikes Back Graflex Screws??? What your opinion? #12

    REVANSSkywalker said: View Post
    According to Seth's book the Bespin scenes were shot after Dagobah.
    I went back and checked again in the Rinzler book. Again, it appears the "Bespin" belt hanger pre-dates the "Dagobah" belt hanger....

    Page 145 of the Rinzler book....the "shootout in the Cloud City corridors between Fett and Luke" was filmed between April 17 and April 30th of 1979. These scenes featured the "Bespin" belt hanger (there is even a picture of this scene being filmed on this page).

    Page 226 of the Rinzler book....the "Luke meets Yoda at the bog campsite" scenes are filmed from August 7 - August 11 of 1979. These scenes feature the "Dagobah" belt hanger.
    Last edited by ALLEY; Feb 12, 2018 at 8:58 AM.
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    Feb 12, 2018, 8:52 AM - Re: Empire Strikes Back Graflex Screws??? What your opinion? #13

    I just built my saber following what I have read in Seth's book. To me it makes since. From his pics they look like small Philips head screws. Here a pic of what it says in his book. If I'm wrong I'm wrong but to me it makes since.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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  14. RPF Premium Member
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    Feb 12, 2018, 8:58 AM - Re: Empire Strikes Back Graflex Screws??? What your opinion? #14

    Hmmmmm....

    And I thought the rivets vs. screws was the debatable topic for this hilt

    If someone can confirm what I am reading regarding the shooting schedule in post #12? Perhaps I am in error regarding what I am reading?
  15. matty matt's Avatar
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    Feb 12, 2018, 9:58 AM - Re: Empire Strikes Back Graflex Screws??? What your opinion? #15

    It has always been my understanding that the Dagobah scenes were filmed last. In my opinion there isn't enough evidence to say when those extra grip screws were added, so it's totally personal preference.
  16. Joek3rr's Avatar
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    Feb 12, 2018, 10:11 AM - Re: Empire Strikes Back Graflex Screws??? What your opinion? #16

    So if the Dagobah stuff was filmed last, maybe someone should give Seth a heads up, and we can get that edited for the next version of the guide? And thinking about it, it would make sense for the Dagobah version to be the last one used. Since we can see what appears to a proto-Ranch saber that was going to be used for RotJ. And as I understand it, the Ranch saber is made from parts of the Dagobah saber.
  17. SethS's Avatar
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    Feb 12, 2018, 12:12 PM - Re: Empire Strikes Back Graflex Screws??? What your opinion? #17

    I am torn. There's a couple people here who have seen call sheets in the archives that say Dagobah was shot first. I love the Rinzler books, but there's a couple examples of them having a bit of revisionist history (like how the ROTJ book states Luke's lightsaber was planned as a new design when we all know the Graflex was prepped to shoopt and they made a change out on the first day of shooting.)

    I'm reticent to call myself a better source than Rinzler though. In the next draft I'll add in the conflict of research.

    Ultimately though, as I said I was doing for myself, the idealized build would have all the parts on the saber since the variations we see are due to things falling off or breaking. Now that I see a two button saber and a single button saber on Dagobah, and silver and black screws both on Hoth, I've given up on trying to be screen accurate and decided to go for the best of version.
  18. Joek3rr's Avatar
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    Feb 12, 2018, 12:28 PM - Re: Empire Strikes Back Graflex Screws??? What your opinion? #18

    SethS said: View Post
    I am torn. There's a couple people here who have seen call sheets in the archives that say Dagobah was shot first. I love the Rinzler books, but there's a couple examples of them having a bit of revisionist history (like how the ROTJ book states Luke's lightsaber was planned as a new design when we all know the Graflex was prepped to shoopt and they made a change out on the first day of shooting.)

    I'm reticent to call myself a better source than Rinzler though. In the next draft I'll add in the conflict of research.

    Ultimately though, as I said I was doing for myself, the idealized build would have all the parts on the saber since the variations we see are due to things falling off or breaking. Now that I see a two button saber and a single button saber on Dagobah, and silver and black screws both on Hoth, I've given up on trying to be screen accurate and decided to go for the best of version.
    Deciding what to do when making a prop is hard. While I'd like to go for screen accuracy with my build, I'm not fond of those added screws. If only they had "HD" cameras back then!
  19. RPF Premium Member kalkamel's Avatar
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    Feb 12, 2018, 12:30 PM - Re: Empire Strikes Back Graflex Screws??? What your opinion? #19

    I remember reading they started filming in Elstree in March '79 through summer, during which the Cloud City carbonite and duel scenes were filmed. Guinness did only one day of shooting in September, so couldn't that have been during the time the Dagobah scenes were shot?
  20. Joek3rr's Avatar
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    Feb 12, 2018, 12:31 PM - Re: Empire Strikes Back Graflex Screws??? What your opinion? #20

    SethS said: View Post
    I’ve decided to add them to mine. Seeing them on Dagobah is enough for me as I consider my build idealized given that the main thing that sets the ESB belt hangers apart is broken or missing parts.
    And could I bother you for a picture of how your saber looks now?
  21. SethS's Avatar
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    Feb 12, 2018, 12:53 PM - Re: Empire Strikes Back Graflex Screws??? What your opinion? #21

    Joek3rr said: View Post
    Deciding what to do when making a prop is hard. While I'd like to go for screen accuracy with my build, I'm not fond of those added screws. If only they had "HD" cameras back then!
    Technically they did-- 35mm film is incredibly high resolution. 4K was the first time digital actually caught up to film. The problem more is that the lightsabers got very few close-ups for study, and pretty much every image we see has at least a few stages of reproduction involved. If we got a 4k scan of the Wampa cave shot, or the R2 bump directly from the original negative, we'd be able to see everything.

    Most of the images we see are scans of printed stills of the final cut of the film. That's three levels of reproduction, each of which degrades. Even the current digital releases of the OT SE were captured and scanned (I believe) off of internegative work prints of the films, not the original shot film itself, as Lucas didn't want to subject them to any undo stress. Even that said, Adywan's revisited fan-edit was able to pull detail out of the latest digital release and give us enough detail to put the screws vs rivets debate to rest.

    Joek3rr said: View Post
    And could I bother you for a picture of how your saber looks now?
    I haven't done it yet-- and there are FAR more skilled sabersmiths than me.
  22. CAKComedyProps's Avatar
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    Feb 12, 2018, 1:04 PM - Re: Empire Strikes Back Graflex Screws??? What your opinion? #22

    I personally don't like the little screws at the top. They make the saber look unprofessional for Anakin's hilt, which was supposed to be all fancy and stuff. I get why they are there from a practical standpoint, but I just wouldn't bother with them since they are not that important personally.
  23. SethS's Avatar
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    Feb 12, 2018, 1:44 PM - Re: Empire Strikes Back Graflex Screws??? What your opinion? #23

    Are you okay with the big screws on the bottom?
  24. Member Since
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    Feb 12, 2018, 2:08 PM - Re: Empire Strikes Back Graflex Screws??? What your opinion? #24

    To me they look like small Philips heads screws. What do you guys think?
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    Feb 12, 2018, 3:00 PM - Re: Empire Strikes Back Graflex Screws??? What your opinion? #25

    kalkamel said: View Post
    I remember reading they started filming in Elstree in March '79 through summer, during which the Cloud City carbonite and duel scenes were filmed. Guinness did only one day of shooting in September, so couldn't that have been during the time the Dagobah scenes were shot?
    Guinness was shot against black cloth, so it didn't need to happen when the Dagobah sets were up.

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