Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release)

What did you think of Star Wars: The Last Jedi?

  • It was great. Loved it. Don't miss it at the theaters.

    Votes: 154 26.6%
  • It was good. Liked it very much. Worth the theater visit.

    Votes: 135 23.4%
  • It was okay. Not too pleased with it. Could watch it at the cinema once or wait for home video.

    Votes: 117 20.2%
  • It was disappointing. Watch it on home video instead.

    Votes: 70 12.1%
  • It was bad. Don't waste your time with it.

    Votes: 102 17.6%

  • Total voters
    578
TPM had a lot of the same issues in the Darth Maul fight. I get wanting to make action sequences a big spectacle, but not when you're sacrificing common sense. I think we all understand that action in movies is heightened and stylized, but there is a line where it becomes so stylized that it starts to look more and more ridiculous.

There's a drummer in a band that I really enjoy that said something about his playing style that I feel can be applied here. He said, and I'm paraphrasing, that when they're writing a song he starts with the most basic beat he can. He keeps layering on more complex fills until it seems to fit the song. If the choreography is based in actual combat, but layered with some embellishments and flourishes it seems to play out better than something that just looks like people dancing around each other.
 
I just completed watching all the supplemental content for the digital release and it was actually very insightful to hear all of the interesting things that went into making this movie.

This was definitely not your typical Star Wars film. The timeline was absolutely featured being a shorter time span not only events between films, but the length of time that elapsed through the film itself.

I'm going to be randomly jumping around here as I don't quite know how to cover everything I watched and heard, but here is some of my thoughts...

The one thing I'll preface that wasn't covered in any additional content is the Leia Poppins stuff that I still am not fully on board with, but anyway....

Rian Johnson did take thought into a lot of things that are on a pretty deep level and there are direct references to the older films in their logic and ideals and how they affected the way things were going now and how to try and resolve those conflicts.


There were quite a few complaints from people about there being no real answer to Rey and where she came from. Johnson touched on this and said it would be an easy answer to just know where you are from because you instantly can connect this and understand more of who you are, but the decision to go this route was for Rey to not have the easy answer and need to find out for herself who she is. Such as real-life, some of us were born into circumstances out of our control and never do get to find out where you came from. Yeah it's depressing, but I don't think this idea is stupid for the film. It opens opportunity to be you without having any family roots to reason or negotiate with in your own understanding. Rey will probably be the most pure form of self one could be. Whereas Luke carried with him this burden knowing he is the son of the most powerful Sith who ever lived. It leaves so much to question in what he must do to not fall into those footsteps and always question his thoughts and actions. Rey is a walking clean slate. I suppose that leaves everything to her drive and determination to be whoever she wants. And who knows if what Ben told her was even true?

Johnson also took thought into why Luke is on this island and didn't want it to seem like he was being a coward, but that he was doing the selfless thing by removing himself, the Jedi, from the conflict of war happening out of fear that it would cause a possible uprising of the Sith and that history would repeat itself again. Yoda's re-entry at the tree was a reminder of what he was teaching Luke from the beginning to keep his mind on the here and now (Referring to the lesson on "Never his mind on where he was. What he was doing.") and not looking to the future with these grand thoughts and that one of Yoda's great strengths was adaptability to change of ideas and learning from the mistakes of the past.

Anyway... there's quite a bit of things that were covered that made a lot of sense and I don't believe at all that they were attempts to dance around the criticism. In interviews with crew and cast there were some very deliberate reasoning behind what he decided to do and I found it interesting how much he went back to reading about the Jedi, analyzing the characters and their actions and what lead them to these positions they are in now.

It is a very divisive film among all of us fans. It's not what we all were "hoping" to get and see. I think it was a huge shock to go from ROTJ and the next chapter being 30 years later from where it left off. So much happens to people in 30 years. We didn't get the good fortune of being able to follow them cinematically along this road to watch their characters change over time. If you're a little older like myself (I'm 40 now), I reflected back on my life between even 20 and 40, and I have been through life changes that changed me as a person. If you haven't experienced life; Loss, misfortune, aging, having a family, family conflict... then I think you would have a hard time understanding and grasping these changes that have happened in the characters, so it's easy to place a big yuck stamp on this film. It's not exactly a fun-filled movie. There was a different thought process putting this film together and takes a more greater deal of energy to analyze and understand it, and that it isn't your typical fun-ride adventure.

Probably where I think a number of things failed for people was in not seeing the more obvious reasoning behind the things they saw. When you look on the surface of the film, it does feel disappointing. Perhaps there could have been some better dialogue to help the general audience understand more. I get it NOW, but I do think it initially failed to really connect those dots and unfortunately takes more research to get that understanding. I appreciate the film more than the first time I saw it and did enjoy it a lot more the second time in theaters.

That said, am I saying it's one of the best Star Wars films ever? No way. BUT I don't think it's a pile of garbage. It's not one you can watch repeatedly, but I give it a lot more credit than it's been getting.
 
Even if all of that is true and he did have a grand plan that makes sense in a much broader context, none of that really made it to film. Instead we seem to have gotten bits and pieces of it all mashed together creating a very disjointed movie with no sense of why anybody is doing what they are doing because the larger picture isn't clear without "real world" explanation after the fact.

That's bad screenwriting and bad filmmaking.
 
This guy summarizes it best. Very good way of putting things, no rant or hating or whatever, just his views that IMO capture perfectly what we keep discussing.
https://youtu.be/C95o0MRzBVs


Basically , RJ the dict - contradicts his own story ( re ; Luke’s motivation ) ... Causing a major rift in the fan base along the way , sooo ...

LF and Disney reward the ‘ genius ‘ by green lighting a new SW trilogy to be written and helmed by him !? . Brilliant .
 
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RJ said he started the script by listing each character and writing what would be hardest for each to go through, then went from there. He should have simply written a good story instead. Everything he does, he seems like he's reaching to justify ideas that weren't very good in the first place.
 
RJ said he started the script by listing each character and writing what would be hardest for each to go through, then went from there. He should have simply written a good story instead. Everything he does, he seems like he's reaching to justify ideas that weren't very good in the first place.

If I was a character in a Star Wars movie, the hardest thing for me to go through would *be in a bad" Star Wars movie :lol
 
I'll stand by that there's a lot of good stuff in TFA and TLJ, but they are hindered by the approach and process from really landing properly. With TFA, they needed a lot more filled in as to how we got to that state of affairs, so the episode can just pick up where the last one left off instead of the huge disconnect and lack of explanation of anything we got. Both suffered from trying to cram too much in to too little run time. Besides the rewrite I already undertook some time back, I've also recently tried a different "how do we work with what we've got" approach, that leaves the first six films as they are (instead of fixing those stories, too), as well as the generation jump to TFA. The only viable approach I found was, if the trilogy model was to be kept, to space it out into two trilogies -- one a mystery-box-ful semi-whodunnit with Kylo stomping around trying to find Luke, as we learn about what's happened in the galaxy since ROTJ and get introduced to the new characters and re-introduced to the old ones. That trilogy ends with the introduction of Rey, and the next one is her journey. I can only do so much without Episode IX to give me more context yet. But my one lasting criticism I lay more at George Lucas' and Rick McCallum's feet than any of the new guard, who are just trying to follow George's (flawed) example:

Star Wars doesn't work as trilogies. There's too much in there to cram into such a small space. ROTJ felt rushed to me, even at 8. Because it was four movies crammed into one. I spent a while years ago, when I first got some sense of earlier drafts and -- more compellingly -- excerpts of George's original notes, daydreaming what sort of story might have unfolded had George not renumbered things and stuck to his plan. If, in 1979, Star Wars had gotten redesignated Episode VII. If, after Return of the Jedi (Episode IX), we had continued with Episode X in 1986, Episode XI in 1989, and Episode XII in 1992. Then George could have taken a break to work on other things, maybe come back to do his 20th anniversary revamp of Star Wars, gone on and done the six Obi-Wan films as a co-director and co-writer... You want to talk un-nuanced. The Prequels in a nutshell. It is a needle-scratch on the record of my fandom that, after all the hints prior to that point that it had been a long and subtle process, with different elements happening at different times, now Anakin becoming Vader, the twins being born, Padmé dying, the Jedi Purge, the end of the Clone Wars, and Palpatine declaring himself Emperor all happen on the same frikkin' day.

So yeah, the new films have exactly the same issues George inflicted on Star Wars starting in the early '80s. Gawd, what these new movies could have been if they were allowed room to breathe and grow... *sigh* I can't point the finger at any one person. It's not JJ's fault, it's not Kathleen's fault, it's not Rian's fault, it's not Larry's fault, it's not George's fault -- it's a messy, complicated culpability stew going back decades. I'm honestly looking forward to having TLJ and its deleted scenes to play with, along with --ultimately -- Episode IX (and maybe even Solo), to see what I can do in an editing suite to wring more coherent stories from the extant footage, never mind acting or choreography issues.

So if Rian has an idea for a story that organically can be told in three movies, instead of shoehorned in, I'm definitely intrigued. Most of the explanations Rian talks about in these featurettes and documentaries I had already figured out. My remaining problems are mostly editing issues, exacerbating all that I said above.

--Jonah
 
This guy summarizes it best. Very good way of putting things, no rant or hating or whatever, just his views that IMO capture perfectly what we keep discussing.
https://youtu.be/C95o0MRzBVs

I agree with most of this, but...The problem both he and RJ had was when he repeatedly acknowledges that it was difficult to come up with a non cowardly reason for Luke to be on the island.

try this:

The evil overtaking the galaxy is partly his fault because he failed as a teacher and his student turned to the dark side. SO he went into isolation, watching the evil spread through the galaxy for two reasons: 1) to watch for the opportunity to train a New Hope for the galaxy, and 2) even more importantly: to learn more and better himself so that when the New Hope came along he would be better able to guide them and not screw it up again.

That's the explanation given for why the very first Jedi ever seen on screen had done pretty much exactly that: become a hermit and watched as his pupil spread evil.

It's also similar to the original explanation given for the second Jedi ever seen on film, who also went into isolation while evil spread throughout the galaxy to meditate on the mistakes of the past, better himself, and await a New Hope to emerge to help correct the mistakes of the past.

Finding that explanation was as difficult as...having ever watched Star Wars. (Not to mention pretty much every Heroes journey since ancient Greece, and probably earlier, where the wise elder has isolated himself after failing to prevent a former student from going bad until a new potential hero comes along and gives him a chance to put it right).

Ironically, most of those very same stories warn of the dangers of falling victim to hubris. It's not that an explanation wasn't available. It's just that he wanted to thumb his nose at it.
 
It's not that an explanation wasn't available. It's just that he wanted to thumb his nose at it.

Yea, this was stated earlier that they deliberately didn’t want to make Luke the Obi-wan of this trilogy. I get that and I respect that decision just don’t think what he came up with was a sensible and satisfactory reason.
I would’ve tried to connect him to the island, like there’s something specifically there that doesn’t let him go or he needs to get something out from it before he would even contemplate leaving. Other than the space cow of course.:)
 
I guess one amazing thing Luke did was being able to somehow detach himself from the force, making it extremely difficult for Snoke and Ren to even find him. If Luke can turn it on and off at will, that would make him able to hide anywhere and even work with the resistance, but I don't think it was fair that he didn't at least stay connected to Leia while in isolation.
 
This guy summarizes it best. Very good way of putting things, no rant or hating or whatever, just his views that IMO capture perfectly what we keep discussing.
https://youtu.be/C95o0MRzBVs

That was a great video!

Unfortunately, films immortalize the decisions people make at the time they feel is best in telling the best story, but can only learn from the mistakes made after the fact and hope they aren't made again the next time around, but again, unfortunately the film is permanent and cannot be gone back to and changed in its direction. The story must go forward and hopefully with that the lessons taken, not only from the creation of the film, but for the writing of the characters going forward, have to move forward from it.

We go through life making so many mistakes, learn, move on and hopefully move forward in a positive way. Thankfully most of those things remain as memories and not a published document for the world to see for all eternity, like a movie.

I know these films have to remain tight-lipped and secret, but I also don't think it's a bad idea to bring a very small group of passionate thinkers together to collaborate and "fact check" each other just to be sure they're covering all angles of this massive universe and the characters and their actions. It's very easy for one person to slip up and miss something that can throw everything fundamentally out of whack.

I've co-wrote before with people and it's amazing when you have what you think is a very clear idea and direction, but then the other person tells you, "But what about ________?" And while what you thought felt clear at the time, suddenly it isn't because of one minor detail you forgot to consider, which then makes you change that thought, or at least want to make a small modification to address that "what-about".

I think these films, the ideas, the characters... its just too large to put a screenplay in the hands of one person. OR if in the hands of one person, have a small group of historians and experts who are contractually bound in secrecy be required to meet and decide if it all makes sense before moving forward. I know this slows the process of the Disney train moving forward on their ambitious deadlines, but I think there's a lot of love for Star Wars to keep it rolling full steam ahead regardless.

I don't think I would ever want the responsibility of writing and directing a Star Wars film. It' so much bigger than me and the amount of pressure to deliver something amazing to all audiences, especially the hard-core fans, would be just too heavy. I would absolutely collaborate and love to be part of the process, but i'm not even sure I could trust myself to be the one writer single-handedly mapping out the next course heading with that much certainty that it is the best direction for everyone and everything.
 
That's what the Star Wars Story Group is for, but they don't seem to be helping the issue.

Here's how you make a successful film, whether it's Star Wars or anything else.

1. Come up with a Theme.
2. Create characters with flaws/ character traits that illustrate that theme.
3. Structure your plot to challenge your character's flaws so that they either fail or succeed in overcoming those flaws.
4. Write several drafts to develop the ideas. Without revisions you will end up with single disjointed drafts that get made into finished films and you end up having movies like TLJ. Have other writers/ editors help you revise your drafts because you can't write a flawless story in a vaccum.

This is writing 101. Sadly most filmmakers today have NO concept of this.

George Lucas wrote 4 or 5 drafts of the first Star Wars and had friends who were also writers and filmmakers help him develop his ideas. That's why it's a nearly flawless film.
 
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That's what shocked me about Luke initially is he was the one man crazy enough to think he could turn one of the most evil people back from the dark side, but he didn't believe in someone who traveled from afar who wanted to make a difference and do great things, at the blessing of his own sister, and holding a lightsaber Luke lost in Bespin over 30 years ago. I would make a pretty big exception if all that came to my door.

And I still don't quite get why his saber was blue during the duel on Crait if he still had his green one, unless he wanted Kylo to think he was borrowing Rey's saber..... but even then, why?
 
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That's what made Luke's attempt to redeem Vader so emotionally powerful in Jedi. Where Obi-Wan and Yoda thought he needed to kill Vader in order to end the cycle of evil, Luke knew that if Vader hadn't killed him in Empire, then he could sense that hesitation.

What a triumph of character for Luke. He even throws his weapon away and defies the Emperor himself because he believes so strongly that there is good in Vader to the point where he is willing to die for it.

THAT is Luke Skywalker. Not the coward who sensed evil in his nephew and stood over him in his sleep, trying to decide whether or not to murder him. Luke wouldn't think that way.
 
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