Its the magical solution that the plot required (as written). I don't like the fast and loose way they play around with the science stuff in the new movies. First TFA says that you can fly through a shield if you are going fast enough and now you can track a ship through hyperspace. As you noted above, it would have been more interesting to have a traitor on board who was transmitting the location after a hyperspace jump. In my opinion, why create a problem when you simply just bypass it with some hocus locus wave of the hand trick?
Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release)
- Thread starter dbuck
- Start date
Its the magical solution that the plot required (as written). I don't like the fast and loose way they play around with the science stuff in the new movies. First TFA says that you can fly through a shield if you are going fast enough and now you can track a ship through hyperspace. As you noted above, it would have been more interesting to have a traitor on board who was transmitting the location after a hyperspace jump. In my opinion, why create a problem when you simply just bypass it with some hocus locus wave of the hand trick?
"head canon"
I love it.
I've been doing this a while now and didn't know what it was called until now. LOL
OldKen
Master Member
Classy JoeG. Good For You.
I’ve been a member for a very long time, and have had around 15 years of deep discussion with all of the old timer old school RPF’rs. I was even on the staff for about 4 years... so my post was more directed to those people I guess?
To catch you up... this is the first true letdown of all 8 movies for me.
Glad you liked it.
Move along.
I’ve been a member for a very long time, and have had around 15 years of deep discussion with all of the old timer old school RPF’rs. I was even on the staff for about 4 years... so my post was more directed to those people I guess?
To catch you up... this is the first true letdown of all 8 movies for me.
Glad you liked it.
Move along.
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Father
Sr Member
Not knowing enough about the period between ROTJ and TFA, I think it's pretty pretentious of Luke to think he was a skilled enough Jedi to teach the next generation.
Again, going back to the PT and seeing the extensive training that the pre-Empire Jedis underwent before they could ever hold the title of Jedi Knight, let alone Master... and here's Luke, who blew off finishing his training after two days (?), got his a** handed to him both physically and psychologically... came back as at least a little less cocky to "defeat" his father (because he lost his ***** when dad mentioned sis) but still needed dad's help to finish the Emperor because he was getting hit by lightning thanks to the inconsistency of the PT and Yoda leaving out that important bit of information when he sent him off the battle... even though he actually fought Palpatine and knew very well what he could do... yeah don't teach Luke to either deflect it with his lightsaber or suck it into his hands and send it back at him...
And this is both how the PT ruins the OT and how getting old drains the magic from the OT. It's probably a combination of both...
Again, going back to the PT and seeing the extensive training that the pre-Empire Jedis underwent before they could ever hold the title of Jedi Knight, let alone Master... and here's Luke, who blew off finishing his training after two days (?), got his a** handed to him both physically and psychologically... came back as at least a little less cocky to "defeat" his father (because he lost his ***** when dad mentioned sis) but still needed dad's help to finish the Emperor because he was getting hit by lightning thanks to the inconsistency of the PT and Yoda leaving out that important bit of information when he sent him off the battle... even though he actually fought Palpatine and knew very well what he could do... yeah don't teach Luke to either deflect it with his lightsaber or suck it into his hands and send it back at him...
And this is both how the PT ruins the OT and how getting old drains the magic from the OT. It's probably a combination of both...
Indyfan89
New Member
Wheeeeee, golly. There's a lot of opining going on here. I'm definitely one of those stunned by how divisive this film has been. I do agree that the polarization comes down to attachment to a pre-existing notion of what this era "should be", either from the old EU material or just from one's own imagination. I also, with some introspection, figured out why I have only a few minor structural niggles with TLJ (should have been two episodes, change the "out of gas" ticking clock). I have no issue with the larger points, or the route to them. I have a feeling this is because I've always had an odd gravitation to things that leave me unsettled, force me to think, challenge my pre-conceptions. The Wall, A Clockwork Orange, etc.
What I see these new films doing is something I feel desperately needs to be done. Looking at the EU, we have 25,000+ years of Empires and Republics, Jedi and Sith, Dark Side and Light Side each rising and having the opposing aspect rise to meet it, over and over in endless cycle. Along the way, how many billions have gotten caught in the crossfire, when they were just trying to live their lives? So now, unlike the EU, where we got superweapon after superweapon, Emperor wannabe after Emperor wannabe, we have now had TFA, which mocked that very thing. For everyone whinging about "another Death Star, only bigger", that's exactly what Our Heroes say in the movie! The destruction of this new superweapon is a throwaway to frame the characters' arcs, not an end unto itself. TLJ ups this by taking all the elements that are echoes of the old ways of doing things that haven't worked and dispensing with them, one after another. The setting has now been stripped to where they have no choice but to try something new, something different.
I am excited and scared because I don't know what's going to happen next. Unlike the post-ROTJ EU. Even the stories I liked in there had few surprises. *thinks* Sixty-plus books and a crap-ton of comics from 1991 to 2013, and I only find the X-Wing stuff (books and comics, both -- and despite Corran "Gary Stu" Horn), Tatooine Ghost, and Karen Traviss' three outings in the Legacy of the Force series worth repeated re-readings. Some are downright painful. Black Fleet Crisis, anyone?
Meanwhile, we are now seeing there are no "happily ever afters". Life hasn't gone the way Our Heroes had hoped. The Rebels found it was easier to be against something than to put together a stable government. As they continue to struggle against irritating setbacks, they try to reclaim those parts of their lives when they actually felt like they were more in control. Han went back to smuggling, Leia buried herself in politics, Luke hyperfocused on Jedi research. And the First Order is far from the Empire clone many take it to be. Snoke is a maguffin. It's about the power dynamic of Hux and Kylo -- two young and awkward boys with parental issues trying to act grown-up while having no idea what they're doing. There are still a lot of puzzle pieces being filled in, but the gist I'm taking away so far is "welp, that didn't work -- what now?" Which feels a lot like life. Yeah, this is supposed to be escapist, but good yarns also impart "how to live", "how to be a good person", "how to learn from your mistakes" sorts of lessons.
Could the filmmakers have done it better? Yes. Can I live with what we got? Also yes. Now. To the commentaries...
Threepio was the OT's Jar-Jar -- he was the one the other action figures beat up on. I didn't do much with mine until Empire came out. Then I repainted him white to be the other protocol droid in Echo Base... I was 6. What?
Not originally, no. That layer of meaning got added after the fact. The Prequels were originally supposed to be focused on Obi-Wan, with Anakin a strong supporting character, like Han. Vader being Anakinwas a change made during the writing of Empire, and the Prequels being about Anakin (and the entire 1-6 saga being his story, and not Luke's at all) was Rick McCallum's influence during the making of the Special Editions, and drove the context of the Prequels. If there's one thing I like about the new films, it's uncoupling the "Skywalker Bloodline" from the central focus.
With an actual skilled writer, George's ideas could have been better presented than people standing or sitting in semicircles discussing politics. He also spent too much screen time on things that should have happened off-screen, or been kept as surprises in the OT (Yoda's appearance, Anakin going Dark Side and becoming Vader). When we know how the story ends, focus on other things we don't know, and on developing strong characters.
A bit like this?
I just watched it again with my mom in preparation of going to see TLJ with her. She sees him and gives him a clear, if brief, "YUM" up-and-down look. Some passage of time happened before she left again on the Falcon. Enough for Hux to take Kylo back to Snoke and Rey to change her clothes. Rey has not evinced any "shrinking violet" tendencies. I had no problem figuring she went up to Poe before heading off to find Luke, grabbing his flight suit, and saying "you better be here when I get back."
If I remember right, you don't have time/inclination to delve into the books or comics. There's a lot yet to be filled in, but Luke doesn't start on the new Jedi temple for at least a year after ROTJ. And Ben rage-quits/Luke hermits <5 years before TFA. Leaving a bit over two decades of undetermined timeline.
Yes.
Biggs vouched for him. In stuff ultimately not filmed, but included in the radio drama, Luke spent some time on a simulator while the plans were being analyzed. And that's not counting having Princess frikkin' Leia bring him in.
As pointed out, there's a conveniently-accessible crystal right on the broken end of Anakin's lightsaber. And I still hope we see her with something like this:
It's the weapon type she's most familiar with, and the fighting style we kept seeing her use with the Anakin 'saber.
Besides what was mentioned before, there was Luke's "It's not that I like the Empire. I hate it!" Figure even on a backwater like Tatooine, there's a reason for that vehemence. The reunion with Biggs (that is part of my headcanon, even if I have it take place earlier, to allow Biggs time to actually reach the Rebellion) lays some more tile. Biggs says "What good is all your uncle's work if it's taken over by the Empire? You know they're starting to nationalize commerce in the central systems. It won't be long before your uncle is merely a tenant, slaving for the greater glory of the Empire."
Enh. The "big bad" First Order has no "throne world". They have several planets, but they've lost the Starkiller, they've lost the Supremacy, they've lost Snoke. We don't know how many more capital ships they have, or where. We don't know how the ongoing tension between Kylo and Hux is going to play out, as far as effective leadership. The lack of answer to Leia's signal is worrying. We have no idea what way the larger galaxy is going to go. Both First Order and Resistance are kind of reeling right now. And neither had a strong centralized position of power.
That latter is the assumption.
Not as many as you might think, from a standpoint of confirmation bias. None of the characters' genders jumped out at me as feeling "forced". The only thing gender-wise I felt the film failed to even remotely explain was that Holdo's not wearing a uniform was part of her character and her homeworld's attitudes. A few seconds of screen time coulda been spent on that. But even then, it's not really female-specific. I can see the same thing being done with a male character.
Meanwhile, a lot of us just see this as a leveling of what in the past was a culturally unlevel playing field. I have a thing I do in my writing where a character's gender is largely arbitrary, unless it's relevant to the plot or some other character for some reason. So the gender of characters I see in fiction similarly is not a thing I care about, unless it's a blatant disenfranchisement. I have not an iota of issue with how Kathleen is running her company. Her approach is far different to me than, say, Paul Feig's was with the new Ghostbusters. I'd like to see things go even further, to where characters' genders aren't set -- except where relevant -- and anyone can audition, with the best fits, male or female, ultimately being the ones cast. This was done back in the '80s with black actors being cast where character race hadn't been set (or even considered). Lando in Empire wasn't written "black". Neither was Murtaugh in Lethal Weapon. No one I saw TLJ with, or who were around me at the theater, or who I am friends with online and have been talking about it after... has said anything about this. So.
Now I sleep.
--Jonah
What I see these new films doing is something I feel desperately needs to be done. Looking at the EU, we have 25,000+ years of Empires and Republics, Jedi and Sith, Dark Side and Light Side each rising and having the opposing aspect rise to meet it, over and over in endless cycle. Along the way, how many billions have gotten caught in the crossfire, when they were just trying to live their lives? So now, unlike the EU, where we got superweapon after superweapon, Emperor wannabe after Emperor wannabe, we have now had TFA, which mocked that very thing. For everyone whinging about "another Death Star, only bigger", that's exactly what Our Heroes say in the movie! The destruction of this new superweapon is a throwaway to frame the characters' arcs, not an end unto itself. TLJ ups this by taking all the elements that are echoes of the old ways of doing things that haven't worked and dispensing with them, one after another. The setting has now been stripped to where they have no choice but to try something new, something different.
I am excited and scared because I don't know what's going to happen next. Unlike the post-ROTJ EU. Even the stories I liked in there had few surprises. *thinks* Sixty-plus books and a crap-ton of comics from 1991 to 2013, and I only find the X-Wing stuff (books and comics, both -- and despite Corran "Gary Stu" Horn), Tatooine Ghost, and Karen Traviss' three outings in the Legacy of the Force series worth repeated re-readings. Some are downright painful. Black Fleet Crisis, anyone?
Meanwhile, we are now seeing there are no "happily ever afters". Life hasn't gone the way Our Heroes had hoped. The Rebels found it was easier to be against something than to put together a stable government. As they continue to struggle against irritating setbacks, they try to reclaim those parts of their lives when they actually felt like they were more in control. Han went back to smuggling, Leia buried herself in politics, Luke hyperfocused on Jedi research. And the First Order is far from the Empire clone many take it to be. Snoke is a maguffin. It's about the power dynamic of Hux and Kylo -- two young and awkward boys with parental issues trying to act grown-up while having no idea what they're doing. There are still a lot of puzzle pieces being filled in, but the gist I'm taking away so far is "welp, that didn't work -- what now?" Which feels a lot like life. Yeah, this is supposed to be escapist, but good yarns also impart "how to live", "how to be a good person", "how to learn from your mistakes" sorts of lessons.
Could the filmmakers have done it better? Yes. Can I live with what we got? Also yes. Now. To the commentaries...
Threepio was the OT's Jar-Jar -- he was the one the other action figures beat up on. I didn't do much with mine until Empire came out. Then I repainted him white to be the other protocol droid in Echo Base... I was 6. What?
Not originally, no. That layer of meaning got added after the fact. The Prequels were originally supposed to be focused on Obi-Wan, with Anakin a strong supporting character, like Han. Vader being Anakinwas a change made during the writing of Empire, and the Prequels being about Anakin (and the entire 1-6 saga being his story, and not Luke's at all) was Rick McCallum's influence during the making of the Special Editions, and drove the context of the Prequels. If there's one thing I like about the new films, it's uncoupling the "Skywalker Bloodline" from the central focus.
With an actual skilled writer, George's ideas could have been better presented than people standing or sitting in semicircles discussing politics. He also spent too much screen time on things that should have happened off-screen, or been kept as surprises in the OT (Yoda's appearance, Anakin going Dark Side and becoming Vader). When we know how the story ends, focus on other things we don't know, and on developing strong characters.
A bit like this?
I just watched it again with my mom in preparation of going to see TLJ with her. She sees him and gives him a clear, if brief, "YUM" up-and-down look. Some passage of time happened before she left again on the Falcon. Enough for Hux to take Kylo back to Snoke and Rey to change her clothes. Rey has not evinced any "shrinking violet" tendencies. I had no problem figuring she went up to Poe before heading off to find Luke, grabbing his flight suit, and saying "you better be here when I get back."
If I remember right, you don't have time/inclination to delve into the books or comics. There's a lot yet to be filled in, but Luke doesn't start on the new Jedi temple for at least a year after ROTJ. And Ben rage-quits/Luke hermits <5 years before TFA. Leaving a bit over two decades of undetermined timeline.
Yes.
Biggs vouched for him. In stuff ultimately not filmed, but included in the radio drama, Luke spent some time on a simulator while the plans were being analyzed. And that's not counting having Princess frikkin' Leia bring him in.
As pointed out, there's a conveniently-accessible crystal right on the broken end of Anakin's lightsaber. And I still hope we see her with something like this:
It's the weapon type she's most familiar with, and the fighting style we kept seeing her use with the Anakin 'saber.
Besides what was mentioned before, there was Luke's "It's not that I like the Empire. I hate it!" Figure even on a backwater like Tatooine, there's a reason for that vehemence. The reunion with Biggs (that is part of my headcanon, even if I have it take place earlier, to allow Biggs time to actually reach the Rebellion) lays some more tile. Biggs says "What good is all your uncle's work if it's taken over by the Empire? You know they're starting to nationalize commerce in the central systems. It won't be long before your uncle is merely a tenant, slaving for the greater glory of the Empire."
Enh. The "big bad" First Order has no "throne world". They have several planets, but they've lost the Starkiller, they've lost the Supremacy, they've lost Snoke. We don't know how many more capital ships they have, or where. We don't know how the ongoing tension between Kylo and Hux is going to play out, as far as effective leadership. The lack of answer to Leia's signal is worrying. We have no idea what way the larger galaxy is going to go. Both First Order and Resistance are kind of reeling right now. And neither had a strong centralized position of power.
That latter is the assumption.
Not as many as you might think, from a standpoint of confirmation bias. None of the characters' genders jumped out at me as feeling "forced". The only thing gender-wise I felt the film failed to even remotely explain was that Holdo's not wearing a uniform was part of her character and her homeworld's attitudes. A few seconds of screen time coulda been spent on that. But even then, it's not really female-specific. I can see the same thing being done with a male character.
Meanwhile, a lot of us just see this as a leveling of what in the past was a culturally unlevel playing field. I have a thing I do in my writing where a character's gender is largely arbitrary, unless it's relevant to the plot or some other character for some reason. So the gender of characters I see in fiction similarly is not a thing I care about, unless it's a blatant disenfranchisement. I have not an iota of issue with how Kathleen is running her company. Her approach is far different to me than, say, Paul Feig's was with the new Ghostbusters. I'd like to see things go even further, to where characters' genders aren't set -- except where relevant -- and anyone can audition, with the best fits, male or female, ultimately being the ones cast. This was done back in the '80s with black actors being cast where character race hadn't been set (or even considered). Lando in Empire wasn't written "black". Neither was Murtaugh in Lethal Weapon. No one I saw TLJ with, or who were around me at the theater, or who I am friends with online and have been talking about it after... has said anything about this. So.
Now I sleep.
--Jonah
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Rotwang
Sr Member
I've been saying this since the release, but the same people who would call you crazy and told you in no uncertain terms that movies like Man of Steel and Batman v Superman : Dawn of Justice were much betterified adaptations of the characters than the stupid version from the comics are now the people who scream bloody character murder, moan and cover themselves with ashes, crying over the destruction of the story, ruining Lucas' legacy and essentially suddenly wrapping themselves in the love for the Prequels when days before the release of the Last Jedi they would watch Plinkett's reviews on a regular basis ...
Now that I got a bunch of people riled up against me I can try to explain how I see what's going on.
It seems that Pop Culture is now reaching the point where the mythology and the psychological investment are reaching a cult-like status. Movies like Avatar, the Star Wars movies, Marvel are popular because we can get lost in the universe instead of just looking at the horizon and sighing our days away, waiting for that spider-bite, the sudden hum of the lightsaber or the chance to jump into the machine and become someone or something completely different.
Pop Culture is one big infantile power-fantasy. From Superman to Luke Skywalker. Raise your hand all of you who didn't watch something bad happen and in the back of your mind wished that there was a superhero around to right all wrongs, that pretending you are using the Force to open an automatic door became something real.
This is not a new thing, people dreamed of travelling to Barsoom or thieve and reave and slay alongside Conan or right wrongs with a black mask and a pair of Colts shooting silver bullets.
The big difference is that the spectacle of the mind is now being outgunned by the spectacle on the screen. You can have a vivid imagination, but the scene of ships hitting each other at hyperspeed had me look for my jaw. And some parts of Avatar still rate as one of the best nature documentaries I've ever seen.
Many of us are deeply invested in Star Wars and the story didn't turn out the way we thought it would.
So where does it go wrong ?
I'd say there are several elements at play here.
We live in an age where social and economic pressure, real or perceived is becoming a major talking point. I'll leave the debate aside only to say that many men have a bad feeling about being men, not only that, but the generation that grew up on the OT is slowly moving to the far end of middle age. A ten-year old who saw the Original release is now in his 50's.
We're now becoming Pop-cons. Pop culture conservatives. The new stuff isn't as good as the old one, the old effects will always beat the new ones, "It used to be about the story man, now it's all one big conspiracy ..." People who have no business liking what we do are moving in on our territory and getting it all wrong !
Just when pop culture is at its crazy height and you can swim in an incredible diversity from mondo cult videos to the latest obscure anime, Bollywood and a flood of Youtube content, we're losing the positive vibe.
I've watched dozens of videos and reviews of the Last Jedi and they fall into two broad categories, Those who simply felt disappointed and the ones who claim it's a conspiracy.
Here is my position.
A substantial amount of Marvel, Dr Who, DC, Star Wars, Galactica, Star Trek, Babylon Five, Avatar is genuinely bad stuff. It's either badly written, poorly written, not well thought out or somebody made a stupid mistake.
Star Wars was a fun romp, Empire has great character moments, Return is uneven, Menace has great ideas, but a very muddled execution, Clones is better, but still disappointing and Revenge never quite hits the high notes it aspires to.
I know the Phantom Menace is full of stupid things, bad dialogue, poor character writing, but essentially it's in all Star Wars movies, even the two really good first ones.
And I feel the same about movies like the current Marvel universe. They are entertaining films and fancies many of my tickles, but I don't think I ever got the end credits without having gone several times "hold on a minute ..."
I'm very fond of Dr Who, but I haven't gotten through a single season without there being at least several episodes that were plain stupid. Entertainingly stupid, endearingly stupid, but stupid nevertheless. Be it the cheapening of the stakes and story by making it all a huge cosmic saga of universe destroying- and saving cycles or the contractual obliged Dalek episode even when you have nothing new to say.
I love my pop culture, I invest in it, I have head canons, I have whole expanded universes, fanfics, secret loves and fantasies, been there, seen it, done it ...
I am really angry that they turned Superman into a moping, occasionally violent, bone-headed dickwad and I was even more shocked when they started to pretend that this had never happened and Superman was supposed to be the cool guy ... Justice League made me feel sentimental about Zack Snyder's hackjob. It may have been wrong, but it had that one redeeming quality, it was an honest hackjob. Justice League was a surrender, it started to speak French and threw the towel saying "Let's just copy Marvel". I remember the original announcement of DC/Warner that their superhero universe was going to be super-serious, no jokes, no funny stuff, every character was going to be a Nolan Batman figure and I thought they had painted themselves into the corner from the very start.
They didn't even try to say "Let's try to do something DIFFERENT from Marvel." They said "Let's not do anything that LOOKS like Marvel." Which means you give up the initiative to Marvel and if as DC, you retreat to the "serious stuff" to remain distinctive and Marvel decides to do something dark with say the Punisher or Cloak and Dagger that is a huge blockbuster, rather than try to find one's own voice, they had a very long list of what they wouldn't do and nothing else ...
Trying to deconstruct Superman or the DC universe is wrong because they are among the very first superheroes. Wonder Woman worked because they remained true to the character, Man of Steel is wrong because they simply 180° everyone of Superman's character features, but got stuck because you can't have a guy who isn't Superman, but is still the beloved hero of millions.
Luke Skywalker on the other hand ...
He was still Luke Skywalker, a darker, more tragic figure, but his failure is not a complete reversal of the character. And he wasn't the only one, everybody from the OT dropped the ball in Rian Johnson's vision. I may not agree with what he did, but I can see what he tried to do and it wasn't a character assassination. It was unexpected and it may have left a bad taste in people's mouths, but it's logical and at no point do they expect you to watch a character do Y, but expect you to conclude Z.
And it's not like the previous films are without failure. Qui Gon fails to save Shmi, setting events in motion. They almost lose Han, the Emperor has forseen everything, but doesn't notice Vader's turn of heart. Nobody on the Jedi council notices that Annakin is a boiling cauldron of frustration.
It's the same stuff in the sequels, but why the hate ?
The hate was already in it for the OT. George Lucas had to exorcise his demons and prove to himself he was the genius everybody mistook him for. I still think Lucas is a genius as a businessman and somebody who dramatically changed how effects are made and I think he's amazing at coming up with neat ideas. He's just not a natural storyteller and without anyone to guide him, we got the problems of the Phantom Menace. And he's aware that he didn't win that battle and I think it's sad. But at least he tried to be honest. And to me a bad, but honest film, beats a good, extremely well-calculated film.
People expected it to be the last round of glory for the OT gang, but how do you carry on the story ? The arc was complete with the fall of the Empire.
And this comes from a promise that George made and must be regretting to this day. At some point he must have felt that nine films sounded like a marvelous idea and he may even have had a vague idea of what to do and announced it to the world, but at some point he never mentions this again. I think he struggled with coming up with a decent idea for the sequels that didn't retread something he'd done before. The prequels were more of the same, evil Sith, good Jedi, Sith wins, OT, evil Sith, good Jedi, Jedi wins ... He had notes and ideas, but I think he understood that he would never manage to make this into something that would satisfy him especially because he doesn't feel good about the prequels either.
Star Wars is a poison gift. Even the EU never quite knows how to come up with a good idea and the really good stories are far and few between. Much of it is simply filler material tied around some character from the movies. The EU is both too big and uneven to build upon, and I can't fault Disney for scrapping it from the canon.
On the one hand there is a valid point to call the Force Awakens a soft reboot and there were plenty of ulterior motives involved. But on the other hand, how do you solve a big problem like the Star Wars sequels ? Film the Thrawn Trilogy you say ???
It's good, but not that good, doesn't really add anything new either and there is also another major problem. The sequels are probably at least a decade too late.
Time has been relatively good to Harrison Ford, he does look old and a bit tired, but to be brutally honest, Mark Hamill and Carrie Fisher ... If there was one thing that kept me out of the films it was the "oh boy, they look old ..."
Mark Hamill is older than Alec Guinness back then. Carrie was the youngest and she looked OK until the early 2000's. Had they done the movies then it would have been less jarring.
We're not supposed to look at age and appearance, Hamill and Fisher are or were at the top of their form with tons of experience. It feels like a missed opportunity or the window has passed.
Another major problem is the setup and the backstory.
Remember how we needed comics, novels, and a prequel to establish Tarkin ? Me neither. Tarkin was obviously the bad guy, wore a nazi uniform and spoke that British english that yells "evil SOB" to all Americans and sends a chill down their spine.
Now take Hux, raise your hand how many of you when first seeing him wondered "What's a kid doing in the role of a general ?"
And let me throw Holdo at you, why the dress, the purple hair ? Is there something in the film that helps us understand this ? Oh, we have have a raised hand.
"She's obviously a Social Justice, third wave feminist ball-cutter, polysexual warrior, inserted into the film by Kathleen Kennedy to drive home some kind of evil agenda."
Thank you for the contribution of the Pop Con Rush Limbaugh.
Let's apply Occam's razor here.
A lot of movies these days are made with a brainstorming session and with people being paid to come up with a distinctive idea, not a full story, just an idea they can work into the movie. If we look at the database we find out she's supposed to be this sort of non-conformist rebellious figure who happened to become a major player in the rebellion.
I admit I didn't know what to make of Kylo Ren at first. He looked like a complete dork and him behaving like a crazy man-child. It was as if he was channeling the ghost of Hrundi V. Bakshi. Not that Star Wars has ever been subtle, but there must be some really low expectations for the intelligence of an average audience.
And it's stuff like that, that if you are already of a suspicious frame of mind, you would easily jump to the conclusion that they are trying to destroy Star Wars, because obviously a studio like Disney loves to spend four billion dollars only to destroy it ...
Why is it that we could pick up Tarkin, Vader, Luke, Obi-Wan, Han, Leia from a few lines of dialogue and a scene or two, but it's hard to frame Rey, Kylo or Snoke ?
Abrams' Taliban-like fanatical devotion to the Mystery Box, even if you have not even an inkling of a ****ing hint to the first clue of the answer to what you are setting up could be to blame. But then again he directed a film that is more or less incomprehensible if you didn't see the original to set it off to and still an incomprehensible mess even if you did.
Here is why I think the sequels are failing :
Star Wars isn't rocket science, in fact they are fairly dumb films, entertaining, funny, but fundamentally simple films, they are supposed to be serials and they were never Nobel prize material to begin with.
The failure lies in that they try to be smarter than the material itself.
Abrams essentially makes you a huge promise : The reveal is going to blow your mind. Rian Johnson said : There is no reveal, it's just the same old struggle, nothing new.
I think the reason why I wasn't as angry as other people is that I know that Star Wars is a limited property. You can't endlessly reinvent it. The fact that Force Awakens is already a reboot in all but name should have given it away.
And to be honest, even if she was Obi Wan's secret daughter or whatever, was that really going to make it better ? If you set up a mystery that promises to be that big, you better have the big reveal. I tried to second guess them by thinking she was a reincarnated Annakin. It was too obvious she could only be tied to either the Solo, Skywalker or Kenobi families.
If the sequels have one nasty feature is that they lack the simplicity of the originals or the misguided honesty of the prequels, where Johnson at least tries to be original and defuses our expectations, he's the realist who says, this story is really only going to go one way, while Abrams promises you the moon.
They are making mistakes with Star Wars, trying to quantify the formula so they can crank out a stream of hit movies like they are doing with Pixar and Marvel, but they lack a clear vision of where to go next. It's a failure, not a conspiracy and not a reason to try to out rage-nerd everyone else in your hatred for the films to the point that you, the guy in the "Logan" T-Shirt are crowdfunding the hiring of an Albanian hitman who's gonna kick Diasy Ridley in the head until she's a drooling plant because her character is allegedly a Mary-Sue.
And in all this I haven't had a single chance to call out my righteous indignation about Star Trek Discovery for murdering that franchise ... dammit !!!!
Now that I got a bunch of people riled up against me I can try to explain how I see what's going on.
It seems that Pop Culture is now reaching the point where the mythology and the psychological investment are reaching a cult-like status. Movies like Avatar, the Star Wars movies, Marvel are popular because we can get lost in the universe instead of just looking at the horizon and sighing our days away, waiting for that spider-bite, the sudden hum of the lightsaber or the chance to jump into the machine and become someone or something completely different.
Pop Culture is one big infantile power-fantasy. From Superman to Luke Skywalker. Raise your hand all of you who didn't watch something bad happen and in the back of your mind wished that there was a superhero around to right all wrongs, that pretending you are using the Force to open an automatic door became something real.
This is not a new thing, people dreamed of travelling to Barsoom or thieve and reave and slay alongside Conan or right wrongs with a black mask and a pair of Colts shooting silver bullets.
The big difference is that the spectacle of the mind is now being outgunned by the spectacle on the screen. You can have a vivid imagination, but the scene of ships hitting each other at hyperspeed had me look for my jaw. And some parts of Avatar still rate as one of the best nature documentaries I've ever seen.
Many of us are deeply invested in Star Wars and the story didn't turn out the way we thought it would.
So where does it go wrong ?
I'd say there are several elements at play here.
We live in an age where social and economic pressure, real or perceived is becoming a major talking point. I'll leave the debate aside only to say that many men have a bad feeling about being men, not only that, but the generation that grew up on the OT is slowly moving to the far end of middle age. A ten-year old who saw the Original release is now in his 50's.
We're now becoming Pop-cons. Pop culture conservatives. The new stuff isn't as good as the old one, the old effects will always beat the new ones, "It used to be about the story man, now it's all one big conspiracy ..." People who have no business liking what we do are moving in on our territory and getting it all wrong !
Just when pop culture is at its crazy height and you can swim in an incredible diversity from mondo cult videos to the latest obscure anime, Bollywood and a flood of Youtube content, we're losing the positive vibe.
I've watched dozens of videos and reviews of the Last Jedi and they fall into two broad categories, Those who simply felt disappointed and the ones who claim it's a conspiracy.
Here is my position.
A substantial amount of Marvel, Dr Who, DC, Star Wars, Galactica, Star Trek, Babylon Five, Avatar is genuinely bad stuff. It's either badly written, poorly written, not well thought out or somebody made a stupid mistake.
Star Wars was a fun romp, Empire has great character moments, Return is uneven, Menace has great ideas, but a very muddled execution, Clones is better, but still disappointing and Revenge never quite hits the high notes it aspires to.
I know the Phantom Menace is full of stupid things, bad dialogue, poor character writing, but essentially it's in all Star Wars movies, even the two really good first ones.
And I feel the same about movies like the current Marvel universe. They are entertaining films and fancies many of my tickles, but I don't think I ever got the end credits without having gone several times "hold on a minute ..."
I'm very fond of Dr Who, but I haven't gotten through a single season without there being at least several episodes that were plain stupid. Entertainingly stupid, endearingly stupid, but stupid nevertheless. Be it the cheapening of the stakes and story by making it all a huge cosmic saga of universe destroying- and saving cycles or the contractual obliged Dalek episode even when you have nothing new to say.
I love my pop culture, I invest in it, I have head canons, I have whole expanded universes, fanfics, secret loves and fantasies, been there, seen it, done it ...
I am really angry that they turned Superman into a moping, occasionally violent, bone-headed dickwad and I was even more shocked when they started to pretend that this had never happened and Superman was supposed to be the cool guy ... Justice League made me feel sentimental about Zack Snyder's hackjob. It may have been wrong, but it had that one redeeming quality, it was an honest hackjob. Justice League was a surrender, it started to speak French and threw the towel saying "Let's just copy Marvel". I remember the original announcement of DC/Warner that their superhero universe was going to be super-serious, no jokes, no funny stuff, every character was going to be a Nolan Batman figure and I thought they had painted themselves into the corner from the very start.
They didn't even try to say "Let's try to do something DIFFERENT from Marvel." They said "Let's not do anything that LOOKS like Marvel." Which means you give up the initiative to Marvel and if as DC, you retreat to the "serious stuff" to remain distinctive and Marvel decides to do something dark with say the Punisher or Cloak and Dagger that is a huge blockbuster, rather than try to find one's own voice, they had a very long list of what they wouldn't do and nothing else ...
Trying to deconstruct Superman or the DC universe is wrong because they are among the very first superheroes. Wonder Woman worked because they remained true to the character, Man of Steel is wrong because they simply 180° everyone of Superman's character features, but got stuck because you can't have a guy who isn't Superman, but is still the beloved hero of millions.
Luke Skywalker on the other hand ...
He was still Luke Skywalker, a darker, more tragic figure, but his failure is not a complete reversal of the character. And he wasn't the only one, everybody from the OT dropped the ball in Rian Johnson's vision. I may not agree with what he did, but I can see what he tried to do and it wasn't a character assassination. It was unexpected and it may have left a bad taste in people's mouths, but it's logical and at no point do they expect you to watch a character do Y, but expect you to conclude Z.
And it's not like the previous films are without failure. Qui Gon fails to save Shmi, setting events in motion. They almost lose Han, the Emperor has forseen everything, but doesn't notice Vader's turn of heart. Nobody on the Jedi council notices that Annakin is a boiling cauldron of frustration.
It's the same stuff in the sequels, but why the hate ?
The hate was already in it for the OT. George Lucas had to exorcise his demons and prove to himself he was the genius everybody mistook him for. I still think Lucas is a genius as a businessman and somebody who dramatically changed how effects are made and I think he's amazing at coming up with neat ideas. He's just not a natural storyteller and without anyone to guide him, we got the problems of the Phantom Menace. And he's aware that he didn't win that battle and I think it's sad. But at least he tried to be honest. And to me a bad, but honest film, beats a good, extremely well-calculated film.
People expected it to be the last round of glory for the OT gang, but how do you carry on the story ? The arc was complete with the fall of the Empire.
And this comes from a promise that George made and must be regretting to this day. At some point he must have felt that nine films sounded like a marvelous idea and he may even have had a vague idea of what to do and announced it to the world, but at some point he never mentions this again. I think he struggled with coming up with a decent idea for the sequels that didn't retread something he'd done before. The prequels were more of the same, evil Sith, good Jedi, Sith wins, OT, evil Sith, good Jedi, Jedi wins ... He had notes and ideas, but I think he understood that he would never manage to make this into something that would satisfy him especially because he doesn't feel good about the prequels either.
Star Wars is a poison gift. Even the EU never quite knows how to come up with a good idea and the really good stories are far and few between. Much of it is simply filler material tied around some character from the movies. The EU is both too big and uneven to build upon, and I can't fault Disney for scrapping it from the canon.
On the one hand there is a valid point to call the Force Awakens a soft reboot and there were plenty of ulterior motives involved. But on the other hand, how do you solve a big problem like the Star Wars sequels ? Film the Thrawn Trilogy you say ???
It's good, but not that good, doesn't really add anything new either and there is also another major problem. The sequels are probably at least a decade too late.
Time has been relatively good to Harrison Ford, he does look old and a bit tired, but to be brutally honest, Mark Hamill and Carrie Fisher ... If there was one thing that kept me out of the films it was the "oh boy, they look old ..."
Mark Hamill is older than Alec Guinness back then. Carrie was the youngest and she looked OK until the early 2000's. Had they done the movies then it would have been less jarring.
We're not supposed to look at age and appearance, Hamill and Fisher are or were at the top of their form with tons of experience. It feels like a missed opportunity or the window has passed.
Another major problem is the setup and the backstory.
Remember how we needed comics, novels, and a prequel to establish Tarkin ? Me neither. Tarkin was obviously the bad guy, wore a nazi uniform and spoke that British english that yells "evil SOB" to all Americans and sends a chill down their spine.
Now take Hux, raise your hand how many of you when first seeing him wondered "What's a kid doing in the role of a general ?"
And let me throw Holdo at you, why the dress, the purple hair ? Is there something in the film that helps us understand this ? Oh, we have have a raised hand.
"She's obviously a Social Justice, third wave feminist ball-cutter, polysexual warrior, inserted into the film by Kathleen Kennedy to drive home some kind of evil agenda."
Thank you for the contribution of the Pop Con Rush Limbaugh.
Let's apply Occam's razor here.
A lot of movies these days are made with a brainstorming session and with people being paid to come up with a distinctive idea, not a full story, just an idea they can work into the movie. If we look at the database we find out she's supposed to be this sort of non-conformist rebellious figure who happened to become a major player in the rebellion.
I admit I didn't know what to make of Kylo Ren at first. He looked like a complete dork and him behaving like a crazy man-child. It was as if he was channeling the ghost of Hrundi V. Bakshi. Not that Star Wars has ever been subtle, but there must be some really low expectations for the intelligence of an average audience.
And it's stuff like that, that if you are already of a suspicious frame of mind, you would easily jump to the conclusion that they are trying to destroy Star Wars, because obviously a studio like Disney loves to spend four billion dollars only to destroy it ...
Why is it that we could pick up Tarkin, Vader, Luke, Obi-Wan, Han, Leia from a few lines of dialogue and a scene or two, but it's hard to frame Rey, Kylo or Snoke ?
Abrams' Taliban-like fanatical devotion to the Mystery Box, even if you have not even an inkling of a ****ing hint to the first clue of the answer to what you are setting up could be to blame. But then again he directed a film that is more or less incomprehensible if you didn't see the original to set it off to and still an incomprehensible mess even if you did.
Here is why I think the sequels are failing :
Star Wars isn't rocket science, in fact they are fairly dumb films, entertaining, funny, but fundamentally simple films, they are supposed to be serials and they were never Nobel prize material to begin with.
The failure lies in that they try to be smarter than the material itself.
Abrams essentially makes you a huge promise : The reveal is going to blow your mind. Rian Johnson said : There is no reveal, it's just the same old struggle, nothing new.
I think the reason why I wasn't as angry as other people is that I know that Star Wars is a limited property. You can't endlessly reinvent it. The fact that Force Awakens is already a reboot in all but name should have given it away.
And to be honest, even if she was Obi Wan's secret daughter or whatever, was that really going to make it better ? If you set up a mystery that promises to be that big, you better have the big reveal. I tried to second guess them by thinking she was a reincarnated Annakin. It was too obvious she could only be tied to either the Solo, Skywalker or Kenobi families.
If the sequels have one nasty feature is that they lack the simplicity of the originals or the misguided honesty of the prequels, where Johnson at least tries to be original and defuses our expectations, he's the realist who says, this story is really only going to go one way, while Abrams promises you the moon.
They are making mistakes with Star Wars, trying to quantify the formula so they can crank out a stream of hit movies like they are doing with Pixar and Marvel, but they lack a clear vision of where to go next. It's a failure, not a conspiracy and not a reason to try to out rage-nerd everyone else in your hatred for the films to the point that you, the guy in the "Logan" T-Shirt are crowdfunding the hiring of an Albanian hitman who's gonna kick Diasy Ridley in the head until she's a drooling plant because her character is allegedly a Mary-Sue.
And in all this I haven't had a single chance to call out my righteous indignation about Star Trek Discovery for murdering that franchise ... dammit !!!!
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dude i was JUST thinking the same thing
$1B and counting, about to pass Rogue One’s total take.
http://deadline.com/2017/12/star-wa...-weekend-international-box-office-1202233919/
http://deadline.com/2017/12/star-wa...-weekend-international-box-office-1202233919/
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Tarkin pretty much established that in ANH on the Death Star. He states that Senate was dissolved and the systems answer directly to the Emperor. So you’re literally seeing the transformation of a republic into an Imperial dictatorship. Remember he also explains the mechanism for enforcing obedience of the local systems would be fear of military action in the form of the Death Star.
You can’t get much more evil than a dictatorship dependent on military force to maintain internal stability.
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Master Boda
Sr Member
LOL you sound sound like a happy share holder more than a happy fan.j/k
Indyfan89
New Member
The first viewing had me staggered, so much so that it made me angry. I reserved judgment, waited a few days, watched it again and.... something hit me.
Star Wars is about every day people fulfilling their destiny, not about a prestige bloodline being all powerful— Anakin was a slave, Luke was a farm boy, Rey a junker, this new kid seems to be a slave AND I’m a house painter who dreams of making films for a living.
No matter who you are or where you are you have the potential to be great and inspire others. We can’t win by destroying what we hate even though that seems the simplest and easiest way to get what we want. We can’t repeat the past. We must let the past die, yes, but we must learn from it that we win by saving what we love. Star Wars inspired me when I was a kid. Hopefully my movies have inspired other kids. Maybe someone somewhere will watch my movies like that little boy was watching the ship in the stars and be inspired to do what’s right.
Just my two cents and why TLJ has a special place in my heart now.
Star Wars is about every day people fulfilling their destiny, not about a prestige bloodline being all powerful— Anakin was a slave, Luke was a farm boy, Rey a junker, this new kid seems to be a slave AND I’m a house painter who dreams of making films for a living.
No matter who you are or where you are you have the potential to be great and inspire others. We can’t win by destroying what we hate even though that seems the simplest and easiest way to get what we want. We can’t repeat the past. We must let the past die, yes, but we must learn from it that we win by saving what we love. Star Wars inspired me when I was a kid. Hopefully my movies have inspired other kids. Maybe someone somewhere will watch my movies like that little boy was watching the ship in the stars and be inspired to do what’s right.
Just my two cents and why TLJ has a special place in my heart now.
As a fan, I can't be happy that this trilogy is what passes for Star Wars these days for so many. I will forever shake my head it bewilderment on that mystery.
BUT given it's financial success will fuel anthology films, one of which so far I found to be extremely pleasing as a fan of OT, I can venture that I may get another film as pleasing to me as R1 was at some point. Though I suppose even Disney will realize they have to rest the franchise at some point.
And the fresh start trilogy has potential.
BUT given it's financial success will fuel anthology films, one of which so far I found to be extremely pleasing as a fan of OT, I can venture that I may get another film as pleasing to me as R1 was at some point. Though I suppose even Disney will realize they have to rest the franchise at some point.
And the fresh start trilogy has potential.
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sztriki
Sr Member
It’s nice and dandy and I agree and genuinely happy they took that direction. Does that make it a good movie in terms of plot, pacing, tone, development, conclusion, anticipation for the next one?
I keep hearing thid “let the past die and accept the new direction of Star Wars” and I am becoming desperate to learn what was in this movie that was SO different and original that it provides excuse of everything, because to me it was wheelspinning where hardly anything progressed and ended on the same note as always: Empire vs rebels and behind them a dark jedi and a jedi.
Haven't heard anyone mention this, but I wonder if Luke's green saber is in Artoo? It's pretty conspicuous that it hasn't even been addressed, but could be a surprise reveal in IX.
What's done is done now.
I never agreed with another Empire etc etc.
Star Wars was a civil war. Says so right in the first film.
Instead of just another Empire entity growing strong again as the big evil and we get a rerun.
Something new, something external to their galaxy invading, something that is an existential threat, not a civil war
for power over the denizens of the galaxy.
Now you could have the new restored republic and it's cadre of Jedi trained by Skywalker
confront something completely different, new hardware, not just TIE Fighter variants and Walkers and tweaked Star Destroyers and blah blah blah again.
Bad guys can still be evil Force users, but they would use it differently, some weapon other than a light saber.
Oh well. Just thinking out loud.
I never agreed with another Empire etc etc.
Star Wars was a civil war. Says so right in the first film.
Instead of just another Empire entity growing strong again as the big evil and we get a rerun.
Something new, something external to their galaxy invading, something that is an existential threat, not a civil war
for power over the denizens of the galaxy.
Now you could have the new restored republic and it's cadre of Jedi trained by Skywalker
confront something completely different, new hardware, not just TIE Fighter variants and Walkers and tweaked Star Destroyers and blah blah blah again.
Bad guys can still be evil Force users, but they would use it differently, some weapon other than a light saber.
Oh well. Just thinking out loud.
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