Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release)

What did you think of Star Wars: The Last Jedi?

  • It was great. Loved it. Don't miss it at the theaters.

    Votes: 154 26.6%
  • It was good. Liked it very much. Worth the theater visit.

    Votes: 135 23.4%
  • It was okay. Not too pleased with it. Could watch it at the cinema once or wait for home video.

    Votes: 117 20.2%
  • It was disappointing. Watch it on home video instead.

    Votes: 70 12.1%
  • It was bad. Don't waste your time with it.

    Votes: 102 17.6%

  • Total voters
    578
:facepalm Read between the lines Bryan. That was specifically about his distaste for what was done to the OT characters. Used to relaunch this 'franchise'. To get all the fans on board.
Every single one of us was excited that our much loved heroes would be getting back together for one last adventure, even the actors themselves. I don't believe ​any SW fan didn't nerd out at the prospect.

Actually, I wasn't. Mostly because I expected a lot of what we're now getting, and I was concerned it wouldn't be handled well. When initially announced, I wasn't really ready to let go of "my" heroes. I didn't want to watch them die on screen, and I fully expected exactly that to happen once their appearances were announced. It wouldn't make a ton of sense story-wise to have the saviors of the galaxy sitting this one out and letting the next generation handle things. And it wouldn't make sense to have them save the galaxy and overshadow the new heroes. So, what'd that leave? Killing them off or otherwise incapacitating them.

The only way to "save" them would be to hurl the story so far into the future that you could have them dead for generations, having lived to ripe old ages and died happy in their beds. Which makes marketing it really difficult because to most people, Star Wars is either: (1) Anakin, Obi-Wan, and maybe Asokha kicking battle droid butt, or (2) the "big four" flying around on the Milennium Falcon kicking Imperial butt. To them, Star Wars is much less the environment and setting, and is much more the characters they already know. The first two Star Wars stories play on this, by either focusing on events that are themselves familiar, or on familiar characters and familiar-ish settings. It won't be until "phase 2" of the Star Wars Stories films that you'll have any chance of seeing an entirely new setting or era depicted alongside entirely new characters. I think it'll take a few more rounds of "expansion" before people will begin to view "Star Wars" as the setting/universe and less as the characters.


What does "let the past die" mean anyway?

"Forget the past?" "Get over it?" Is it some pseudo narrative throughline that sounds halfway smart when pitched, but horribly executed?

I don't get it.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I'll do my best to explain my own perspective on this, and much of it is tied to my view of who Ben/Kylo is and what drives him.

First, a bit on Ben. The implication from TLJ and (to a lesser extent) TFA is that Ben has kind of had everyone else telling him how to live his life for as long as he can remember, and focusing heavily on his heritage and bloodline. Leia pushed him to become a Jedi and gave Ben to Luke to be trained. Even after he turned, Snoke sought him out because (so he says) of the strength of his bloodline. In all of these, the common, underlying tension for Ben is that his free will is ultimately frustrated at every turn, because everyone seems to be suggesting that it's his destiny to become a Great Jedi (or Great Dark Lord). In other words, Ben's future is entirely decided -- by other people -- based on his and his family's past.

At first, Ben seems to find some structure from this, even going as far as to emulate his grandfather by wearing a mask. Eventually, Snoke tells him to lose the mask and that he looks like a petulant child (which he kind of is anyway, but is beside the point). It's after this point that he (apparently) makes a decision to completely abandon the past altogether, including going so far as destroying it wherever he can. He's conflicted, though, because he obviously still has some kind of love for his mother (and can't bear to blow up the bridge). So, anyway, Ben's motivation, to me, seems to be to forge a new destiny for himself, one where he is free to rule the galaxy as he sees fit, and is free from his past. One where he charts his own course. I actually see Ben and Rey as connected in this sense, except whereas Ben runs from the past, Rey looks to it for guidance (but finds none, or at least not as much as she hoped). Ben rejected the identity forced on him by the past, and Rey searches the past for some kind of identity that she can adopt.

So, to the point about "let the past die." I see it as essentially just a general rejection of the past, but in Ben's case, a rejection of the limitations and bonds of the past. Only by destroying the past that has bound him, constrained him, and (in his view) otherwise harmed him can he truly be free to make his own identity and in turn shape the galaxy.

But there's a difference between "let the past die" and "kill it if you have to," which is the second half of his point. I think there's a tension between past and present (and implicitly, the future) in the story. Even Luke suggests that it's time to move on from some aspects of the past (e.g., let the Jedi die out). And, in a way, the Jedi are dead now in the sense of the old Jedi who allowed Sidious to rise and destroy them. And in terms of Luke's version of the Jedi which never quite got off the ground anyway. Rey, instead, is the last Jedi, or arguably, the first new Jedi. I don't get the sense that Rey will buy into all of the old Jedi teachings (after all, Yoda notes that they really aren't compelling reading), but won't necessarily reject them out of hand just because they're old. For that matter, Rey -- by the end of the film -- acknowledges that it's time for her (and the galaxy) to find her own path, but not necessarily in a way that destroys the past. Rather, in a way that appears to preserve it, while not being blindly beholden to it.

That's my take, anyway.
 
It's also used as a metaphor to say to us that Star Wars is moving in a new direction and it's "killing the past" of how we perceive what SW should be. I think the killing off of our heros is also a metaphor to cement this in our consciousness. I think it's also why I'm becoming less of a fan since there moving away from what makes SW a SW movie. Future movies will have the label of SW but it won't be truly SW to me. I guess they feel like they have to go that direction to keep it fresh but at the same they are "killing it". I think they could have handled it better though without somehow giving us fans the middle finger.
 
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Ok, so I love to pick this movie apart... and it's easy to do. It's a disaster in most major aspects of storytelling.

HOWEVER, I don't think the "Let the past die" thing is directly (or even indirectly) addressing OT fans. As terrible as Disney can be I have a really hard time believing the central theme of the movie is created specifically to alienate OT fans. They thought it was a clever bit of dialogue that fits the character of Ben Solo... and it was clever. Just rewatch the trailer for TLJ. It was amazing. It got me pumped for the movie. It just turned out like the rest of the film- clever setup, poor execution.
 
It's also used as a metaphor to say to us that Star Wars is moving in a new direction and it's "killing the past" of how we perceive what SW should be. I think the killing off of our heros is also a metaphor to cement this in our consciousness. I think it's also why I'm becoming less of a fan since there moving away from what makes SW a SW movie. Future movies will have the label of SW but it won't be truly SW to me. I guess they feel like they have to go that direction to keep it fresh but at the same they are "killing it". I think they could have handled it better though without somehow giving us fans the middle finger.

Actually, I would say it's less about Star Wars "killing its past," and more about Star Wars moving on from it. You'll never completely let go of the past or erase it (which is the central flaw in Ben's philosophy -- his mission to "let the past die, kill it if you have to" is ultimately futile), but likewise you cannot cling to it and freeze the universe in time. I actually think another way they could have gone with Ben would be to have him try to use all his power to make the universe be the way he imagines the past was, using any means available to him. It would be equally futile.

That said, yeah, Star Wars is changing. It's not going to be endless repetitions of the same trilogy of beats. There is still one foot in the past, obviously (the new trilogy still has a lot of visual and structural references to the past), but there's no reason it has to (or should) continue to just find new ways to re-do what we've already seen.

Ultimately, this is one of the problems with any long-running fandom, in my opinion. You can pursue one of three paths.

1. Let the past die, killing it if you have to. By which I mean you ignore any prior films each time you make a new one, and ignore anything that relates to what makes for the core, the soul of the work. This is what Star Trek did under JJ. That franchise (in film, anyway) has completely lost its soul and as a result is now utterly generic. Galaxy Quest and Master and Commander are better Star Trek movies than the stuff JJ did.

2. Preserve the past at all costs, even at the cost of the future. By which I mean you keep trying to emulate the past, but put only minor spins on it as some attempt to keep it fresh. Or if you prefer another metaphor, keep serving the same, increasingly rotten cut of meat, but change the garnish every so often. I would say that the Bond franchise during the Brosnan years basically did this. It's not quite at the depths of the Roger Moore years (although that era does contain some gems), but it's not far from it. There are moments of brilliance in the films, but far too much that relies on the same kind of winking quips and outlandish gadgetry that we've seen in every other Bond film. The franchise -- until Casino Royale -- did not really allow itself to evolve, and as a result stagnated.

3. Be mindful of the past, not allowing yourself to ever forget it, but do not be beholden to it overmuch. Identify what is, ultimately, the soul of your work and the stories you tell. What makes them [franchise] films? Is it the setting alone? Is it the costumes/look of the piece? Something about the way dialogue works? Or is it something deeper in the stories that you tell? What's the DNA that runs through ALL of your stories, when you really break them down? What is it that makes a Star Wars story truly "Star Wars"?

I would argue that it's not just the trappings of the films. The white-armored bad guy soldiers, the motley crew of good guys fighting it out against overwhelming odds, etc. It's not laser guns or laser swords or space ships. It's not even the specific characters. It's ultimately a mix of several of those elements, but usually with some core sense of a struggle between good and evil, stasis and entropy, freedom and oppression, at least on some level.
 
We've watched TLJ again yesterday. With three months of distance, no expectations and no emotions this movie still sucks. It's a hard movie to watch because of the stupidity of all the plots and how the characters act. I simply cannot understand how anybody at Disney/Lucas could release this trainwreck. With all the changes in directors and staff on other projects it's hard to believe that anybody could do a job nearly as bad as RJ and it makes no sense at all that he kept his job.
 
Actually, I wasn't. Mostly because I expected a lot of what we're now getting, and I was concerned it wouldn't be handled well. When initially announced, I wasn't really ready to let go of "my" heroes. I didn't want to watch them die on screen, and I fully expected exactly that to happen once their appearances were announced. It wouldn't make a ton of sense story-wise to have the saviors of the galaxy sitting this one out and letting the next generation handle things. And it wouldn't make sense to have them save the galaxy and overshadow the new heroes. So, what'd that leave? Killing them off or otherwise incapacitating them.

The only way to "save" them would be to hurl the story so far into the future that you could have them dead for generations, having lived to ripe old ages and died happy in their beds. Which makes marketing it really difficult because to most people, Star Wars is either: (1) Anakin, Obi-Wan, and maybe Asokha kicking battle droid butt, or (2) the "big four" flying around on the Milennium Falcon kicking Imperial butt. To them, Star Wars is much less the environment and setting, and is much more the characters they already know. The first two Star Wars stories play on this, by either focusing on events that are themselves familiar, or on familiar characters and familiar-ish settings. It won't be until "phase 2" of the Star Wars Stories films that you'll have any chance of seeing an entirely new setting or era depicted alongside entirely new characters. I think it'll take a few more rounds of "expansion" before people will begin to view "Star Wars" as the setting/universe and less as the characters.

It would make total sense for them to save the Galaxy because they are the heroes. The new characters have done nothing to earn the accolade of 'heroes' except may be Finn because he had the balls to quit his job and kick his boss's ass. Of course they are going to overshadow the new characters but that is because these characters have been deemed heroes by the fandom for the past forty years.
If they are gonna bring them back they should have used them well. They could have given the fans what they wanted while introducing their new characters. Giving them chance to evolve and giving the audience a reason to connect with them. If they had been more creative and respectful, they could have killed of the OT heroes by the end which would be fine because the new characters would have chance to learn and grow and finally earn their 'hero' status.
Done. Skywalker saga wrapped up with a fitting end. Fans excited for the future of Star Wars. Endless speculation for where the next movie will take our newly beloved characters. Simple.

I don't believe that to most people SW is just about the characters they know. Many new characters have been introduced over recent years and many of them have become well liked or even fan favourites. That is because they have been well written, fleshed out characters rather than inferior facsimiles of previous characters we all loved. The appeal of SW has always been alien worlds, fantastic settings and environments that pull you in and make you want to be the hero and live in that galaxy far far away. Dirty, used, lived in. Not like the usual sci fi vision of the future. It was history. That is the basis on which the love of this fantasy has sustained its relevance for forty years.

 
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It would make total sense for them to save the Galaxy because they are the heroes. The new characters have done nothing to earn the accolade of 'heroes' except may be Finn because he had the balls to quit his job and kick his boss's ass. Of course they are going to overshadow the new characters but that is because these characters have been deemed heroes by the fandom for the past forty years.

If they are gonna bring them back they should have used them well. They could have given the fans what they wanted while introducing their new characters. Giving them chance to evolve and giving the audience a reason to connect with them. If they had been more creative and respectful, they could have killed of the OT heroes by the end which would be fine because the new characters would have chance to learn and grow and finally earn their 'hero' status.

Done. Skywalker saga wrapped up with a fitting end. Fans excited for the future of Star Wars. Endless speculation for where the next movie will take our newly beloved characters. Simple.

I don't believe that to most people SW is just about the characters they know. Many new characters have been introduced over recent years and many of them have become well liked or even fan favourites. That is because they have been well written, fleshed out characters rather than inferior facsimiles of previous characters we all loved. The appeal of SW has always been alien worlds, fantastic settings and environments that pull you in and make you want to be the hero and live in that galaxy far far away. Dirty, used, lived in. Not like the usual sci fi vision of the future. It was history. That is the basis on which the love of this fantasy has sustained its relevance for forty years.

I'm not sure if you understood what the point of this trilogy was going to be, based on what you wrote here. I don't mean this to be demeaning, but I think if those were your expectations, then they were wildly unrealistic and never were likely to be met. So, of course you'd be disappointed.

If we applied what you're suggesting to the OT and the PT, then you would have the OT featuring Obi-Wan and Yoda centrally, with the "new" characters of Luke, Leia, and Han tagging along and gradually growing into their roles as heroes, only finally engaging in truly heroic action at the very end when Obi-Wan and Yoda make some suitably heroic sacrifice and the new crew does the last bit to save the day and there by "earn" their hero status. By that yardstick, the OT would've been a disaster, too, because Obi-Wan dies in the first film and goes down like a chump, Yoda has abandoned the Rebellion -- the survivors of the Republic -- to live in seclusion and refuses to teach Luke initially, and Luke is just some Mary Sue who doesn't do anything to earn his Force powers and yet SOMEHOW manages to blow up the Death Star, whereas Han is hardly a hero at all and just flies in at the very end to protect Luke, and Leia isn't remotely a hero because she spends most of the film captured and yet somehow we're supposed to believe she's the leader of the freaking Rebellion? And they didn't even give Bail Organa a funeral! They just blew up the planet, acted sad for 2 seconds, and moved on! And by the 2nd film, Luke, who's supposed to be this big hero, is barely a Jedi after having spent, what, a week training? Compared to the lifetime of training that Yoda, Obi-Wan, and Anakin had? And yet he's supposed to take on one of the most powerful Jedi who ever lived and who has now fallen to the Dark Side? Of course he'd end up with his hand chopped off and thrown down a reactor shaft. And Han, once again, isn't even heroic. He dodges some ships in an asteroid field (seen it -- Obi-Wan did it better), and then just ends up caught and frozen in carbonite, and once again, Leia does...squat. Nothing heroic. She bosses people around, tells generals what to do, is still treated like royalty even though her damn planet was blown up, and is pretty much just some damsel in distress, who occasionally cracks wise and shoots a blaster. Rah rah. Real herioc. NOTHING compared to her mom. What a disaster.

The fact that these characters have been "the heroes for 40 years" has nothing to do with what's on the screen, and everything to do with your connection to what's on the screen. That connection is what I would consider a meta-story matter. It's something that exists outside of the story itself, but which influences your experience of the story. Within the film universe, what's happening on screen all holds together. It just doesn't comport with your notion of who these heroes are (were) for the past 40 years (or, more accurately, 40 years ago).

This is ultimately part of the problem of fandom, in that it freezes characters in time and does not allow them to grow or change. From my perspective, the position Luke, Leia, and Han are in at the start of the new trilogy, makes perfect sense if you treat as "real" in your own "head canon" what has apparently happened to them in between the trilogies. What it doesn't track to is who they were 40 years ago, if you assume literally nothing happened in between. I think therein lies the problem for a ton of fans: they didn't get to see what happened in between. All you have is the admittedly jarring experience of "Wait, Luke was this serene, amazing Jedi at the end of ROTJ, and now he's this broken, bitter hermit? WTF?!"

Regardless, I do think that the notion of "But the OT heroes could still have been the focus and just gradually shifted things over to the new trilogy heroes" is realistic. The OT heroes were always going to be background players at best, assuming they survived. By making them central figures in this story, you only increase the incentive to kill them off, lest they steal the new heroes' thunder and deny them the opportunity to actually become heroes.
 
May be it is wishful thinking on my part but I don't think a little more fan service would have damaged the SW brand in the way TLJ has. There's no end insight for these movies. They didn't need to rush to sweep away the old.

I think real world circumstances played a large part in that beginning with Harrison Ford only willing to do a one and done with TFA. Rian Johnson obviously wrote and filmed TLJ not knowing we would loose Carrie which has uncerimoniusly slammed the door on her character to move forward with the new hero's. So really the only real creative decision to kill off the OT hero's was made by Rian was in regard to Luke, not Han or Carrie.
 
Luke and Rey both have their own version of "kill the past" in their arc within the film. Rey having to come to terms with her hopes regarding her family and searching for her "place on all of this". By the end she has those answers and as is ready to be the hero of IX on her own terms. Likewise Luke attempts to kill what he perceived as his past mistakes by becoming isolated. He learns from Yoda he was wrong and since it's too late to fly to Crait chooses the self sacrifice method of projecting himself there to save his friends and the Resistance and inspire the Galaxy.
 
We've watched TLJ again yesterday. With three months of distance, no expectations and no emotions this movie still sucks. It's a hard movie to watch because of the stupidity of all the plots and how the characters act. I simply cannot understand how anybody at Disney/Lucas could release this trainwreck. With all the changes in directors and staff on other projects it's hard to believe that anybody could do a job nearly as bad as RJ and it makes no sense at all that he kept his job.

Lucasfilm is a billion dollar company, so it is hard to believe that there wasnt someone there asking questions of Rian like "Hey Rian, shouldn't you address the setups in previous film?", or "Hey man, maybe you shouldn't have Leia flying through space like Mary Poppins.". Its hard to believe that these conversations didn't take place. They must have, right? So if that's the case, it seems that Lucasfilm knew exactly what they were putting out and were 100% ok with it. IDK, maybe it's the new direction there taking.
 
May be it is wishful thinking on my part but I don't think a little more fan service would have damaged the SW brand in the way TLJ has. There's no end insight for these movies. They didn't need to rush to sweep away the old.

I think it depends on what the "fan service" is exactly. You're trying to tell a story in the film, not just hat-tip to all that has come before. At a certain point, the fan service ends up breaking the 4th wall, which was one of my complaints with the PT. There was a bunch of "fan service" in that that I thought was unnecessary, and it created a kind of "fishbowl galaxy." I mean, what with Chewie and Yoda having gone to high school together, and Anakin being "the Maker" of C-3PO, and everyone having met R2 some 60 years before ANH. That, to me, was "fan service" handled the wrong way. The "right" way was seeing the Falcon as an easter egg in ROTS, or having clips of Jon Vander and Garven Dries be used in Rogue One. Those worked, fit in context, and weren't overly intrusive. I think, for example, stopping the forward motion of the film in TLJ to, for example, spend time mourning Admiral Ackbar specifically would've been "bad" fan service (just for example).

Realistically, I think we have two things at play here.

1. There's a 30+ year gap between the end of the last story, and the start of the new one, and we don't get to see what happens in between. It'd be like having your closing shot for "Star Wars: WWII" end with the sailor kissing the nurse, a big fanfare, and then opening the next film (Star Wars: The Cold Wars) with that same sailor now a bitter alcoholic in his late 50s who's mourning one son who died in Vietnam, another son who disowned his family because he joined the anti-war movement and didn't buy his dad's "Love it or leave it!" attitude, and the film focuses instead on some well-meaning college kid who's listening to Bowie and T-Rex while being profiled by the CIA to work for them in a program designed to work covertly against one of the good guys' allies during the last movie...and we don't get to see anything that happened between 1945 and 1977. We just have to get it from in-movie references, backstory, some comics, and a few novels. I mean...you skip 32 years of history, and ****** gets jarringly different from where you left off. Especially if you left off in some moment of triumph.

2. Meanwhile, for 40 years, our heroes have been either frozen in time in their incarnations from 1983, or got kind of a second life between (give or take) 1987-1991 and 2015, which is then subsequently jettisoned, but which is really hard to forget. So, you end up with characters who have been marinating for some 40 years in a mix of nostalgia, "extended universe" material, and repeated rewatchings of the original films countless (literally beyond counting -- I could not tell you how many times I watched the OT) times by fans. All of that, I think, tends to cement in viewers' minds an image of "who these people are," without allowing for intervening events. For us, the audience, there have been no intervening events. So, even though it's unrealistic and downright silly to take a span of history of 32-35 years and imagine as if nothing has changed for anyone during that time, or that "happily ever after" set in...that's what the fans actually experienced: happily ever after for 35 years and then PSYCH EVERYTHING WENT TO HELL. Unfortunately, I think it was ultimately necessary, given the creative choices made by LFL.

Essentially:

- IF you want to tell a "Star Wars" story
- AND you want to tie it to the era most familiar to the vast population
- AND your actors from that era are willing to do so, but aren't really in a condition to be the badasses they once were
- AND at least one of them says "You kill me in one or you kill me offscreen. Your choice"
- AND you are unable or unwilling to hurl the story hundreds of years into the future....
- THEN you get the situation we got. You introduce dramatic events into the lives of the characters between then and now, and extrapolate from that what they'd be like.

Within that context, I think the sequel trilogy works. It makes perfect sense to me why that would be a kind of narrative whiplash for a lot of viewers, and why "just ignore it" wouldn't work when it comes to suggesting that they ignore the VHS copies of the OT that they wore out before buying bootleg laserdisc rips off of ebay and DVDs and blurays and whatnot just so they could rewatch the old story over and over and over again.

For me, the characters work and -- more importantly -- are interesting based on their stories. That's different from the PT where the A-to-B-to-C of it works and makes sense (e.g., Anakin falls to the dark side because he has deep-seated separation anxiety issues as a result of joining the Jedi order when he was old enough to really miss his mom -- i.e., too old), but I find it not remotely interesting compared to the reasons for Anakin's behavior that, to me, make far more sense (e.g., he turned to the Dark Side on the belief that only order-at-any-cost could end the war, end the destruction, and end the loss of life and his friends). That said, I recognize how some people's experience of TFA and especially TLJ would be more like my experience of the PT (they get it just fine, they just don't find it entertaining or the right story choice).

My hope...and this may be a longshot and kinda weird for folks to conceive of...is that Dave Filioni and his team end up tackling the period between ROTJ and TFA.

No joke. My experience of watching Filioni's "Clone Wars" cartoon got me to a point where I could watch at least ROTS (I maintain that TPM and most of AOTC are irredeemable) and enjoy it a lot more. That's just within the last few months, even. I rewatched ROTS on a plane flight back in early February, and...it's actually pretty well done. Not the story I'd have picked, but with the background in the Clone Wars era of the TCW cartoon, it makes the world as a whole become a lot more interesting, and that,in turn, made me a lot more positively disposed towards ROTS. So I hope Dave can tackle the era we're "Missing" currently, and flesh it out, thereby making the films...more approachable for those who aren't fans. I doubt it'll ever be 100% rehabilitated for them, the way that the PT isn't ever going to be 100% rehabilitated for me, but hopefully it'll let you enjoy at least aspects of it.
 
I just found found J.J. Abrams outline for 7, 8, and 9.

Dear Disney,

We're here to make you a lot of money!

Love, J. J. Abrams.


All kidding aside,

I get that the OT characters would have changed in the 30 plus year gap between trilogies, but had there been more story context for some of what had transpired during that time, I think it wouldn't have been so jarring for fans. Plus to radically change Luke Skywalker into someone we don't recognize (or even like) in service to a subpar story with a weak facsimile to replace him as our new protagonist was never going to fly with most fans. Sorry Rey fans. She could have been awesome, but they dropped the ball on that one and it has nothing to do with Daisy Ridley and everything to do with the script. Kylo is interesting. I gotta give them credit there. Perhaps not so iconic, but interesting as a character.

Sure fans have 40 plus years of love for the OT characters, but it's not nostalgia alone that has us coming back again and again. If nostalgia alone is keeping this series afloat then how is it that new audiences are able to relate to the characters? It's not just our ideas about these characters that has kept us debating and analyzing them. It's because they are compelling characters who were are in service to a modern day myth that is told in a fantastic way. They represent something important to young people and it's the reason why new generations of fans have connected with them just as powerfully as we did as children. Few stories have the lasting power of Star Wars because few stories used archetypal heroes to say something important about humanity.


Plus The Last Jedi was such a downer. So freaking depressing. There's enough bad stuff going on in the world that when I go into the theater to watch a Star Wars movie I expect to be able to escape for a few hours and not have to think about the fact that I have to go to work the next day or pay this or that bill, or hear about some horrible event on the news. Now I have to sit and watch a Star Wars movie where everyone fails at everything, nothing really all that exciting happens and they utterly destroy the very heart and soul (Luke Skywalker) of Star Wars itself? No thanks. I can think of a ton of other ways I'd rather spend my time and money.

I've said it again and again but it bears repeating. The world wants to try and make morality and humanity more and more ambiguous. Star Wars was refreshing because it delineated good from evil so clearly. The good guys were good (flawed enough) but good and the bad guys were bad (mostly). Overall the lines were pretty clear and it made for some powerful story telling. When that basic structure is not only thrown into question, but openly mocked then most fans are going to have a hard time getting behind that.

I'm referring to Luke here. Having Kylo be conflicted the way he was actually worked for me and was interesting, but the way Luke acted just didn't gel with what we'd seen of him before. Like at all. And I'm not buying that his last act was some inspirational bull**** either. Rey was standing in front of him, inspired by his legend enough to find him and bring him back into the fight and he shut her out. Then the 10 people who supposedly witnessed Luke return to Crait saw a whole lot of smoke as they ran out the back of the cave for their lives, so who the hell are they going to tell? Luke could have shown up in person and maybe even lived to teach Rey a thing or two, but instead he died a coward on that island, too lazy to get off his ass and do something about the mess he helped create when he contemplated murdering his nephew in his sleep, even though he spent all of Return of the Jedi redeeming Vader, who was FAR more evil than Kylo Ren ever was.

All of that happened because they thought it would be easier to utterly destroy an interesting character as a means to give the new protagonist something to do, rather than I don't know, develop her story so that she had something interesting to do and we could watch her grown as a result? If Rian Johnson was so adamant that he unapologetically insisted that he needed to change Star Wars to make it fit his vision, then why take the job at all? Why not just make his own movies and make them exactly the way he wanted to?

Hell if I had the capability to make my own movies I wouldn't be very interested in playing someone else's sandbox and playing by their rules. I would be more content to make my own sandbox and create my own rules.
 
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Lucasfilm is a billion dollar company, so it is hard to believe that there wasnt someone there asking questions of Rian like "Hey Rian, shouldn't you address the setups in previous film?", or "Hey man, maybe you shouldn't have Leia flying through space like Mary Poppins.". Its hard to believe that these conversations didn't take place. They must have, right? So if that's the case, it seems that Lucasfilm knew exactly what they were putting out and were 100% ok with it. IDK, maybe it's the new direction there taking.

If that's their new direction, they should burn down their studios. Even the kids who were with us in the theatre hated this movie, because it was plain stupid.
 
Harrison Ford was a surprise and was obviously a one shot deal. The point is Diseaseny/LFL had them all in the same room but wouldn’t let them play together. In fact, Luke Skywalker became an overshadowing problem so they just dumped him on an island to make the problem go away.
Obviously, LS is gonna overshadow new characters. All they had to do was acknowledge that fact and embrace it. Let the OT heroes have their last adventure in episode VII, introduce new characters that can take the lead in episodeVIII and onwards.
Instead, they chose to deconstruct heroes. Yes, in real life, events change people but this is fantasy escapism from the real world. The stories they tell are only restricted by a lack of imagination and a point of view jaded by real life.
They are making these stories up as they go but it is not from the mind of the creator. It is nothing more than big budget fan fiction and as such is no more valid than any old crap I could make up in my head.

Alternatively, leave the OT cast out and start afresh with their new characters. But that doesn’t help marketing does it?
 
Harrison Ford was a surprise and was obviously a one shot deal. The point is Diseaseny/LFL had them all in the same room but wouldn’t let them play together. In fact, Luke Skywalker became an overshadowing problem so they just dumped him on an island to make the problem go away.
Obviously, LS is gonna overshadow new characters. All they had to do was acknowledge that fact and embrace it. Let the OT heroes have their last adventure in episode VII, introduce new characters that can take the lead in episodeVIII and onwards.
I don't necessarily agree with this. For me the best parts of TFA are the first 40 mins or so until Han Solo shows up and the end after Han Solo dies. That's not to say that I had a problem with Solo or Ford, it's just that he and the old bunch DID really take over the movie and I think the developing dynamics between the new guys were just more interesting.
Also absolutely no disrespect to Carrie or even Harrison, but hey both do look soooooooo old and tired, and their character are still fighting the same exact fight and doing the same exact thing, it would totally take me out to see these elderly people trying to jump around. I just dread what Indy 5 would be like. There are some things that are better not forced (no pun intended). How the passing was done is a different story and I do agree that it wasn't done properly. Han's death was the only thing that I think was really well executed both story and consequence-wise. Where was Larry Kasdan where he was needed at Ep8...? Oh yeah, writing that Solo movie...

They are making these stories up as they go but it is not from the mind of the creator. It is nothing more than big budget fan fiction and as such is no more valid than any old crap I could make up in my head.

Alternatively, leave the OT cast out and start afresh with their new characters. But that doesn’t help marketing does it?
This I agree with completely. Both statements.
 
Harrison Ford was a surprise and was obviously a one shot deal. The point is Diseaseny/LFL had them all in the same room but wouldn’t let them play together. In fact, Luke Skywalker became an overshadowing problem so they just dumped him on an island to make the problem go away.
Obviously, LS is gonna overshadow new characters. All they had to do was acknowledge that fact and embrace it. Let the OT heroes have their last adventure in episode VII, introduce new characters that can take the lead in episodeVIII and onwards.
Instead, they chose to deconstruct heroes. Yes, in real life, events change people but this is fantasy escapism from the real world. The stories they tell are only restricted by a lack of imagination and a point of view jaded by real life.
They are making these stories up as they go but it is not from the mind of the creator. It is nothing more than big budget fan fiction and as such is no more valid than any old crap I could make up in my head.

Alternatively, leave the OT cast out and start afresh with their new characters. But that doesn’t help marketing does it?

Yes, yes, yes - this analysis is everything.
 
I think the problems actually go deeper than just TLJ and i think this film is just the end result of the whole direction that was taken in regards to the new Trilogy. If you look at the Force Awakens as the starting point you have some big questions to ask.

1/ The Rebels beat the Empire then sent the remnants away (where?) so they could regroup and come back 30 years later?
2/ That same Empire/Order now had the money backing or resources to create a whole NEW Empire with bigger and better weapons - and no one noticed?
3/ The Rebellion became the new Republic but then just moved to a new Star System (for no good reason) and set up shop, disbanded their fleets, and took no notice whatsoever of any feasible threat from within or without their Galaxy?
4/ The Hero of the OT Luke Skywalker sets up a new Jedi order but muffs it and runs off to live like a hermit .. totally against everything he learned originally about persevering.
5/ Said new Jedi order (over the space of 30+ years) seems to consist only of 6 people and all the roughly same age?....

on top of this we have the sheer level of coincidence going on in TFA?

Empire/Order turns up in huge spaceship no one noticed they were building (how unfair!) in pursuit of pilot who is after map which ends up in droid. kid on Jakuu finds droid and meets rogue storm trooper. they in turn find possibly THE most famous starship in the Republic Fleet under a Tarpauline where its been sat for 20 years (oh and everything works AND the batteries not flat) only to take off and run into HAN SOLO ... who owns the starship (which he's managed to track from halfway across the galaxy and get to in 10 minutes) who despite knowing the ship is (essentially bugged or trackable) takes them to Maz Kanata' who just happens to have LUKES LIGHTSABER in her basement .... (which fell into the heart of a Tababa Gas planet ... Kid discovers she has insanely powerful force abilities.
Meanwhile the Empire have been kitting out an entire planet Killer (again no one noticed this despite it being only a few systems away) which isn't another Death Star (but really is) ... etc etc ..

I guess what im trying to say is that they rebooted a story which did not need it (every Star Wears film has added something to the saga good or bad) .... the analogy i often give is its like re-booting Harry Potter when you got to the Deathly Hallows bit .. what? why? The force awakens is a film i like but it has very limited re-watchability because you basically park your brain at the door and watch bigger and better set pieces .. Basically JJ Abrams is the king of the reboot ... and he's always a bit less concerned with cannon and consistency than the fans. It comes down to style over content every single time .. Big Problem is the re-booted the universe of Star Wars at the same time and again it did not need it so it now jars horribly with established lore.

Its no surprise then really that by the time we get to TLJ we have not a lot to hang our coats on .. the die has been cast by this point and theres no going back .. If you can get away with the toppline characterisation and fluffy plotting first time round all you need to do is make fit more topline and more fluffy for number two right?... Oh and The Force is now much more flexible and inconsistent.

the fundamental issue with both films is (Rhymes with hiss) poor writing and plots coupled with a complete disregard for established consistency, lore and tone. you can argue about this is sticking in the past or not but when you develop a fictional world be it in written or visual form there needs to be a consistency of tone or a rough set of rules in order to maintain the essential 'feel' of the universe thats created. the OT story evolved but certain things remained consistent .. these were the rules .. The PT also had different stories but again same rules ... whether you like those stories or not is moot but tonally it was the same universe .....

the new trilogy has (for me .. i must state) just bent too many of rules of consistency and tone as to the Star Wars Universe and actually served to make it seem smaller and dumber

The Empire/first order is the dominant force in the universe but is staffed by (literally) utter morons and an angry kid?
the Empire First order with a vast fleet is hellbent on destroying the remnants of the Resistance BUT only has one big spaceship and is content to just rumble after them?
Someone with no Jedi Training can FaceTime across the universe and move mountains?
Force ghosts can now come and go at will and have physical presence and abilities
the big Bad is Hugh Hefner in a silk Kimono but we couldn't think of a back story so he's dead in favour of moron and angry kid
the list goes on ...

Its not fare to cuss fans of a series by slinging the 'you cant accept change' thing at them. I love star wars all of them upto Jedi because they 'felt' good story or bad consistent and had a universal tone and feel between the movies .. even TFA had it to a degree albeit the story was a reboot/rehash homage if you will. the Last Jedi was utterly cringe-worthy and just did not to me feel at all like a Star Wars movie .. it was in places parody, in others sheer pantomime! .. mostly just a jumbled chaotic and (literally) incomprehensible mess of ideas.

I like to believe that Carries untimely passing was partly to blame as i think they had a plan for her but her passing meant rejigging a lot of stuff to try and make it fit. Sadly i wish they had held off and rethought it. its damaged the lore of the universe and disenfranchised a lot of fans myself included .. I still love Star Wars but this isn't Star Wars ... not sure what it is but its off on so many levels.
 
The problem, to my mind, is Disney doesn't care about creating classic/epic Star Wars movies that stand the test of time.
All they care about is opening weekend bank.
We, as Star Wars fans, expect to sit down and be served a seven course meal with appetizers and desserts and a fine sniff of brandy and a nice cigar at the end.
Disney is shoving a happy meal in our faces and hurrying us on our way so they can serve more crappy happy meals.
They're making consumable, disposable movies.
The thing I can't figure out is "why"?
They have all the time, money and resources to create incredible films - but they're not doing it.
 
I think the problems actually go deeper than just TLJ and i think this film is just the end result of the whole direction that was taken in regards to the new Trilogy. If you look at the Force Awakens as the starting point you have some big questions to ask.

1/ The Rebels beat the Empire then sent the remnants away (where?) so they could regroup and come back 30 years later?
2/ That same Empire/Order now had the money backing or resources to create a whole NEW Empire with bigger and better weapons - and no one noticed?
3/ The Rebellion became the new Republic but then just moved to a new Star System (for no good reason) and set up shop, disbanded their fleets, and took no notice whatsoever of any feasible threat from within or without their Galaxy?
4/ The Hero of the OT Luke Skywalker sets up a new Jedi order but muffs it and runs off to live like a hermit .. totally against everything he learned originally about persevering.
5/ Said new Jedi order (over the space of 30+ years) seems to consist only of 6 people and all the roughly same age?....

on top of this we have the sheer level of coincidence going on in TFA?

.

A lot of this has been touched upon in plenty of discussions AND media since 2015. Most of that stuff has actually been asked and answered in this thread multiple times.
 
This thread is more than 3 years old.

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