Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release)

mkstewartesq said:

I don't know if it is mentioned in the film or in the novel why they did this (I can look later at the novel) - but I don't think it is always the case that the Rebels "meet up" at a planet when fleeing. See ESB, where there is a reference to "meeting up at the rendezvous point" when leaving Hoth. When we next see the fleet gathered at the end, there's no planet around, only open space.

M

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Ah I see, that makes sense.

Nitz146 said:

Ah I see, that makes sense.

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C'mon Nitz, you know it doesn't.
They didn't have enough fuel. So where the hell were they all going? In fact a more logical sub plot would have been sending Finn and Rose to get more fuel.

Greenie said:

C'mon Nitz, you know it doesn't.
They didn't have enough fuel. So where the hell were they all going? In fact a more logical sub plot would have been sending Finn and Rose to get more fuel.

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Haha, that's true. Thanks for setting me straight.

To be fair, we've never really known how hyperspace works. The films don't say a thing about it. The dialogue seems to conflate "hyperspace" with "lightspeed" although it's not entirely clear. The passage of time also isn't clear in most of the films, with only TLJ suggesting a specific 18 hr window in which everything can/must happen....but then does nothing to clarify how hyperspace works to ensure people know you're still playing by the universe's built-in rules (or consciously breaking them). We don't have a 24-style ticking clock, so we don't know how long it takes for anything to happen, or even necessarily all of the sequence of events and how they play out (although sequencing is a bit easier to figure, given a few common points where storylines intersect).

But that's always been true for Star Wars. None of that stuff has been explained. Things happen and ships travel at the speed of plot. Night and day fall at the speed of plot and ambience. None of it is really clear.

For example, on the fuel issue, the suggestion is that the ship is running out of whatever fuel it uses to propel itself in regular sublight space. We don't know if the hyperdrive runs on a different fuel source, or even if it runs on fuel at all. We don't know if Kylo's attack on the ship blew up some critical fuel reserve or whathaveyou. The whole thing is a mystery.

For the most part, I'm ok with that. I don't expect a lot more in my Star Wars, even if I might prefer it if it is better explained. I tend to think it's harder to work that stuff into a film without breaking the 4th wall, though. And if your focus is on the experience of the characters and their level of knowledge, going into detail specifically for the audience's sake is a waste of time if it would be reasonable to assume that everyone IN the movie universe would know what's going on.


Here's how I'd fix the chase:

1. Decide on your pace. Do you want it fast, or do you want it slow? I think the film wanted slow, ominous, creeping doom. And it got that...but I think it could've done so even with a sense of speed. Set it against a backdrop with something really large in the far background, and smaller things up close. The large thing can stay static. The smaller things can whiz by to give you a sense of speed in spite of the creeping doom. Speed plus slow gaining would work.

2. Explicitly show Kylo's attack crippling some critical propulsion equipment. Coolant lines, hyperdrive fluid, sublight engine regulators, whatever. Lampshade it. "The hangar explosion took out one of the regulators. We've rigged a backup, but I don't know how long it'll last if we keep burning at this speed. Admiral, whatever you have planned, I hope you can pull it off quickly, because our engine could blow any time now.

3. Show the stakes. The film tried to do this somewhat, but they could've handled it better. Some nameless ship has its engines go dark and gets blowed up. Who cares? It's only a model. In another case, they had a ship captain on holo screen flicker out of existence. Again, who cares? He's some random dude who pops up on Space Skype, says "Godspeed!" and winks out of existence as another model explodes. Instead of that, take me inside the bridge with him. Show the explosion around him. You know why anyone remembers Porkins? Because we saw what happened to him. We didn't hear him scream over the comms and then get static. We watched him die, and that gave the entire sequence stakes. All of the pilots as they get picked off in the Trench Run sequence are humanized, given a moment, and then engulfed in flames. That creates real stakes. It shows the cost in a real way, not in some remote, detached way. Nobody remembers Red Leader's first wingman who got blown up. Why? Right. We didn't get an interior cockpit explosion sequence. If we had? There'd be a wiki page to that pilot and probably 3 novels from the Bantam-Spectra days of the EU! Give me more of that with the TLJ space chase. Showcase another ship's engines explode, killing an engineer, and then have someone vidcom to the bridge to scream "Captain!! Our regulator's just blown and it took out the chief with it! We're dead in space!!!" Then show the captain's reaction of horror or grim acknowledgment as he realizes what's going to come, cut to the interior of the Supremacy, and have a smug Hux issue a "You may fire when ready." Close-up of the enormous cannon firing, switch to the shot streaking towards the ship, fast-cut to the interior of the ship and we watch it blow up around everyone, then cut to the bridge of the Raddus (or wherever on the ship) and watch Laura Dern looking steely but clearly moved, while Poe loses his ******. Then later, when she has the troops all come to the Raddus (only to offload them later), showcase one of the closer escort ships scrambling to get everyone on the shuttle, the shuttle launching in time, and then cut to the bridge of the ship to show the captain calling the Raddus and saying his "Godspeed, Rebels!" line, then show a similar sequence. Shot from the Supremacy, shot hits the ship, fireball on the bridge, captain screams, quick cut to the Raddus' bridge as we watch the people there react and the tension builds.


Doing this would have the effect of (A) imbuing the entire sequence with real tension and dread, (B) show the effects of that on the tension and dread on the Raddus' crew, and (C) make it clear that Poe is driven to his stupid move not simply because he's being a dick, but because he's cracking under the pressure (sort of). If Poe's arc is about thinking strategically instead of tactically, then you accomplish that by having him react to the obvious thing in front of him, without thinking through the longer-term options or implications of his merely reactive solution.

Yeah Dan, but none of the movies have ever used fuel or travel for the entire plot of the movie. It didnt explain how it works cause it wasnt necessary to the story. With TLJ it IS the story. And its an asinine explanation of it, and execution of it. Ill tell you one thing though, if Ruin was a fan, he sure as hell would have given Ackbar the send off he deserved. Not being killed off screen and giving the self sacrifice to some one who actually mouths "pew pew" when shooting her blaster. :facepalm

Just the fact that Rose and Finn get to leave for a their date is silly.

Make up your mind FO, do you want the rebels dead or do you want to toy with them? Who becomes a general by not taking out his enemy? HuX. By wasting an entire fleet to chase a few ships, when you could have jumped a few star destroyers past to cut them off? The same rebels who took out your planetkillah, who just prank called you and wiped out a dreadnaught...but you NOW you care about fighters and wasting resources?!?! This is the stupid manager at work that would rather rebuild the building than keep the fire extinguishers.

Maybe Hux is going aftet the insurance money? Anything wickedly stupid is possible.

And yes, running out of fuel. Reminds me of Spaceballs, "should have put in more than five bucks!"

The amount of stupid in the movie is really overwhelming. It is scary to know people think the plot was sound/reasonable.

I wish Hux ended every scene with, " what could possibly go wrong?"

JPH said:

Just the fact that Rose and Finn get to leave for a their date is silly.

Make up your mind FO, do you want the rebels dead or do you want to toy with them? Who becomes a general by not taking out his enemy? HuX. By wasting an entire fleet to chase a few ships, when you could have jumped a few star destroyers past to cut them off? The same rebels who took out your planetkillah, who just prank called you and wiped out a dreadnaught...but you NOW you care about fighters and wasting resources?!?! This is the stupid manager at work that would rather rebuild the building than keep the fire extinguishers.

Maybe Hux is going aftet the insurance money? Anything wickedly stupid is possible.

And yes, running out of fuel. Reminds me of Spaceballs, "should have put in more than five bucks!"

The amount of stupid in the movie is really overwhelming. It is scary to know people think the plot was sound/reasonable.

I wish Hux ended every scene with, " what could possibly go wrong?"

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Why even cut them off to begin with? The battle could have been ended in just two minutes from the beginning. Why destroy the base on D'Qar? It's tactically insignificant, it was 90% evacuated when the shot was fired at it. If anything, destroying it was stupid for that reason, but also in an intelligence gathering perspective. I'm sure the Resistance didn't have time to purge their databanks at the base. You could learn tactical data, planets for the Resistance to take refuge at, their allies in the outer rim, etc. First Order ships can run cloaking scans, yes? Yes. First Order ships have sophisticated sensor equipment right? Right. First Order has super-zoom magnifying scopes to view escape pods, right? Right. Okay... given all that, they could certainly see the evacuating ships heading to the Raddus from D'Qar, right? Why blow up the base on D'Qar? Use the dreadnaught hyper mega ultra super destruction cannon on the Raddus. End the Resistance command ship in one shot. A base is static. A ship is not. Clearly that's your threat. How the heck did the First Order not detect the approaching bombers to the Dreadnaught beforehand? They aren't stealth ships... and based from how they deliver their payloads, they aren't technologically advanced ships... they are a rag-tag fleet. Laaaaaaaaaaaaazy writing.

Where am I going with that? Why do police not require a search warrant (in most cases) to search a vehicle for evidence? Sure a lot of case law and what not - but the tactical reason I mean - because is a vehicle is a conveyance - and as such, mobile. That's why from a tactical standpoint, this writing makes zero sense. None. Nada. Especially given those later plot points I listed prior to why the Raddus should be targeted. Before the inevitable hurr-durr-durr argument of 'this is star wars, they don't use tactics to begin with' tell that to Thrawn in Rebels or the books, games, movies, etc. Or about a thousand other examples in the Legends and Canon both.

I think RJ wanted a participation trophy.

In the novel, even the TIE pilots are wondering why they haven't been sent after the Raddus.

Every First Order pilot assigned to the fleet wanted to avenge the disaster at Starkiller,
pitilessly dissected in after-action reports as a failure of the starfighters corps to contain a
numerically inferior enemy. But the all-out blitz against the Resistance that the pilots
hoped for kept failing to materialize—instead, there was this strange, sublight pursuit,
with most of the pilots stuck watching.

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Why show Snoke as this insanely demanding and hands-on leader who faceplants Hux, but then have hour after hour go by with no fighters launching, doing nothing but sheepishly following the Resistance and allowing Leia time to recover? Seems like Snoke would be flipping out.

I'm not defending TLJ as a wonderful film, but in regards to going lightspeed into the Dreadnaught and people saying, "Then why didn't they just do that to the Death Star?!!!!".....

Pretty simple answer, really..... Because up until that time maybe no one had thought of that yet in theory that it could actually work to use it as a weapon.

For all they knew, Lightspeed was used as a means to get to places quickly, and that if coordinates were entered wrong coming out could mean devastating consequences, as Han pointed out in ANH.

I just think it was a new idea that hadn't been explored yet to use Lightspeed as a weapon and proved, in that case, that it works. It doesn't ruin any of the other films in their battle strategy or that anyone was dumb in their thinking beforehand. It's just no one thought to use it that way yet.

That makes no sense. They've had light speed tech for thousands of years and they know what happens if you don't plot an exact course. There is no possibility that it hasn't been thought of or tried before.

niennumb1 said:

I'm not defending TLJ as a wonderful film, but in regards to going lightspeed into the Dreadnaught and people saying, "Then why didn't they just do that to the Death Star?!!!!".....

Pretty simple answer, really..... Because up until that time maybe no one had thought of that yet in theory that it could actually work to use it as a weapon.

For all they knew, Lightspeed was used as a means to get to places quickly, and that if coordinates were entered wrong coming out could mean devastating consequences, as Han pointed out in ANH.

I just think it was a new idea that hadn't been explored yet to use Lightspeed as a weapon and proved, in that case, that it works. It doesn't ruin any of the other films in their battle strategy or that anyone was dumb in their thinking beforehand. It's just no one thought to use it that way yet.

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Admiral Holdo used the Raddus to go into lightspeed and jump into the Supremacy, not the dreadnaught. The dreadnaught was the ship bombed in the very first act with the gravity-in-space bombs (they're actually magnetic according to the book published after the movie).

A better question is this...
Why did Holdo have to sacrifice herself? Why couldn't an astromech be used to perform the same risky maneuver? Why couldn't auto pilot do it? Literally nothing explains this at any point of the movie why this is necessary.

Espcially when we have a whole class of ships dedicated to this purpose. Ramships - a term used to refer to starships used for the sole purpose of ramming other vessels during space battles. Most ramships were built from the frame of standard starships though their interiors would be packed with explosives. Due to the highly dangerous profile of the mission, few pilots would man these ships and many were entirely automated.

While this tactic has been used before, it has always been at sublight speed (not lightspeed/hyperspace). This occurred when the Hammerhead Class ship was used to plow into the Star Destroyer in the Battle of Scarif. It accomplished shearing one Star Destroyer in two by crashing it into another one, which the remains of both later plummeted into the shield gate to Scarif.

Another example of a ram being used was when Anakin Skywalker utilized Venator-class Republic cruiser to crash into a droid control ship, destroying it on impact during the Battle of Ryloth. Granted he rigged the controls and jettisoned out in an escape pod (which makes what Holdo did even more pointless?).

The CIS stole a derelict Venator-class Republic cruise, equipped with thousands of barrels of highly explosive and volatile Rhydonium canisters to crash the vessel into Valor space station. Thankfully, this attack was prevented and the ship blew up prematurely.

Another example transpired during the Battle of Sullust, when a Hyena-bomber was ordered to make a suicide run in order to kill Ventress,

In Rebels, during the Battle of Battle of Atollon, Commander Jun Sato (my favorite Rebel commander in all of the show) deliberately, along with two rebel crewmen, rammed Phoenix Nest into Admiral Konstantine's Interdictor-Class Star Destroyer, blowing it up. It allowed the rebels to once again jump to hyperspace.

During the Battle of Endor, an A-wing pilot, Arvel Crynyd, piloted his badly damaged A-wing into the bridge of the SSD Executor. Which doomed the vessel and caused it to crash into the Death Star super structure, killing all aboard.

All these examples occurred at sublight speed. Not Lightspeed/hyperspace.

When Holdo did this 'new' tactic... it cleaved the Supremacy in two and destroyed every single one of the Resurgeant-Class Star Destroyers that the command ship had as it's escort. I can understand maybe, just maybe, damaging or destroying the Supremacy, but destroying the entire fleet? The Raddus didn't have the mass to accomplish all that. This movie did something that has never before been seen anywhere in the Star Wars universe... and believe me, I looked hard to make sure that was true. But I don't think it should have been possible anyway.

The Raddus is pictured in the far right corner (the only ship not shaped like a Star Destroyer).

From left to right: Snoke's Supremacy, Mandator IV-class Siege Dreadnaught ("THE DREADNAUGHT"), Resurgent-Class Star Destroyer, Raddus, and the Vakbeor-class cargo frigate (Vigil).

What happens when you crash a smaller object into a larger one: https://www.technologyreview.com/s/413018/laws-of-physics-persist-in-crashes-big-cars-win/

Expanded information on Hyperspace: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Hyperspace/Legends

niennumb1 said:

I'm not defending TLJ as a wonderful film, but in regards to going lightspeed into the Dreadnaught and people saying, "Then why didn't they just do that to the Death Star?!!!!".....

Pretty simple answer, really..... Because up until that time maybe no one had thought of that yet in theory that it could actually work to use it as a weapon.

For all they knew, Lightspeed was used as a means to get to places quickly, and that if coordinates were entered wrong coming out could mean devastating consequences, as Han pointed out in ANH.

I just think it was a new idea that hadn't been explored yet to use Lightspeed as a weapon and proved, in that case, that it works. It doesn't ruin any of the other films in their battle strategy or that anyone was dumb in their thinking beforehand. It's just no one thought to use it that way yet.

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So, we don't have hyperspace in our world, but during the movie *I* thought about hyperspace missiles. During the force awakens I considered hyperspace missiles. The first death Star would have been taken down without a pilot lost.

The whole "hypserspace ignores shields" idea BREAKS Star Wars.

As Greenie pointed out, they've had hypserspace for THOUSANDS of YEARS.

JPH said:

So, we don't have hyperspace in our world, but during the movie *I* thought about hyperspace missiles. During the force awakens I considered hyperspace missiles. The first death Star would have been taken down without a pilot lost.

The whole "hypserspace ignores shields" idea BREAKS Star Wars.

As Greenie pointed out, they've had hypserspace for THOUSANDS of YEARS.

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I hadn't even considered the shield bit. My question is this: can deflector shields absorb kinetic attacks?

As for having lightspeed/hyperspace capabilities, the Ancient Rakatan Empire had it in 35,000 BBY.

Deflector shield lore: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Deflector_shield/Legends

ALso, in Rogue 1 there is a great scene where a corvette tries to enter hyperspace as a Star Destroyer appears. The corvette bounces off like a smart car off a sherman tank. Now THAT would have been more accurate.

mcoractual said:

I hadn't even considered the shield bit. My question is this: can deflector shields absorb kinetic attacks?

As for having lightspeed/hyperspace capabilities, the Ancient Rakatan Empire had it in 35,000 BBY.

Deflector shield lore: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Deflector_shield/Legends

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There are two kinds of shields, one for energy one for matter. Large ships have against both.

But there is also a MASSIVE kinetic energy debt created by claiming a ship travelling near light speed (because at light speed it would be massless).

JPH said:

ALso, in Rogue 1 there is a great scene where a corvette tries to enter hyperspace as a Star Destroyer appears. The corvette bounces off like a smart car off a sherman tank. Now THAT would have been more accurate.

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LOL.

JPH said:

There are two kinds of shields, one for energy one for matter. Large ships have against both.

But there is also a MASSIVE kinetic energy debt created by claiming a ship travelling near light speed (because at light speed it would be massless).

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I guess we've both further validated the sheer idiocy and lack of attention to lore/universe on this one.

mkstewartesq said:

I don't know if it is mentioned in the film or in the novel why they did this (I can look later at the novel) - but I don't think it is always the case that the Rebels "meet up" at a planet when fleeing. See ESB, where there is a reference to "meeting up at the rendezvous point" when leaving Hoth. When we next see the fleet gathered at the end, there's no planet around, only open space.

M

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The rebels probably met up in the middle of nowhere and THEN went to a base. If they jumped right next to theirbase, then anyone who could report them would give off your location and doom your base. If you are worried about being followed or spied upon, you don't take a direct path to your destination, make a few lefts...a few rights...stroll around, make sure you aren't being tailed

Yikes.... I remember the amazing anti-anti-gravity bombs on the dreadnaught, but it looked to me like it damaged a good part of the ship, but hadn’t completely destroyed it and was still posing a major threat. That makes sense now.

I must have really missed something between when the supremacy arrived because I thought it was the same ship, HAHAHAHAHAH!

Oh man I feel like an idiot and I’ve watched the film 4 times. I need to see this part again as I most certainly didn’t connect these dots.

In regards to size difference arguments.... Luke’s tiny X-wing proton torpedoes had enough kick to set off a major chain reaction to single-handedly destroy an entire planet-sized space station. If it was built under the same blueprint plans as the first Death Star, those torpedoes must have hit a heck of a mark in that huge base where the reactor cores were in ROTJ.

I totally understand the logic arguments of size comparison in the real world and don’t deny any of that, but Star Wars has always been known for certain rules not applying to how things work in its universe.


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niennumb1 said:

Yikes.... I remember the amazing anti-anti-gravity bombs on the dreadnaught, but it looked to me like it damaged a good part of the ship, but hadn’t completely destroyed it and was still posing a major threat. That makes sense now.

I must have really missed something between when the supremacy arrived because I thought it was the same ship, HAHAHAHAHAH!

Oh man I feel like an idiot and I’ve watched the film 4 times. I need to see this part again as I most certainly didn’t connect these dots.

In regards to size difference arguments.... Luke’s tiny X-wing proton torpedoes had enough kick to set off a major chain reaction to single-handedly destroy an entire planet-sized space station. If it was built under the same blueprint plans as the first Death Star, those torpedoes must have hit a heck of a mark in that huge base where the reactor cores were in ROTJ.

I totally understand the logic arguments of size comparison in the real world and don’t deny any of that, but Star Wars has always been known for certain rules not applying to how things work in its universe.


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Did you see their retroactive explanation for those bombs...?
“We did all go, ‘How do bombs drop in space?'” Morris told Nerdist. “And we sat there for ages. And then Rian Johnson said, ‘They’re Maglev [magnetic] bombs. It’s Star Wars. Let’s not worry. Let’s move on.'”

New Disney and LucasFilm Storytelling everybody.
https://nerdist.com/star-wars-the-last-jedi-effects-supervisor-dropping-bombs-flying-leia-space/
The notoriously lazy writer strikes again.

:facepalm You goober.


This isn't an exhaust port that's having a proton torpedo shot down it's throat (weakness exposed by technical readouts from stolen plans). This is one ship. Ramming another ship. 200% it's mass if not more and cutting it in two and exploding an entire fleet around it. It's ignoring hyperspace mechanics (because you can't really do microjumps like that... it's never been done before this point)... it ignores shields on a ship, which are designed to prevent this kind of thing. The more you give thought to this, the less sense it makes.



Heck, you didn't even which ship you were looking at upon a fourth viewing. lolol

Edit: Why the hell wasn't the Dreadnaught shielded during the bombing sequence? That particular ship had 6 shield generators built into the ship. More and more plotholes at every turn it seems. They weren't even special bombs - just regular proton bombs.