Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release)

What did you think of Star Wars: The Last Jedi?

  • It was great. Loved it. Don't miss it at the theaters.

    Votes: 154 26.6%
  • It was good. Liked it very much. Worth the theater visit.

    Votes: 135 23.4%
  • It was okay. Not too pleased with it. Could watch it at the cinema once or wait for home video.

    Votes: 117 20.2%
  • It was disappointing. Watch it on home video instead.

    Votes: 70 12.1%
  • It was bad. Don't waste your time with it.

    Votes: 102 17.6%

  • Total voters
    578
See, I think the purity thing is dead on. At the end was see a kid that's obviously Force Sensitive. He's not been swayed by any faction, & the Force has revealed itself to him. He has no training, but uses the Force in a day-to-day way. I take it that his training is instinctive, & possibly revealed by the Force itself.

He's using the Force, but not USING the Force, if you get what I mean.

So training is out. Let the Force develop in a sentient being, in its own way? If thats true, which it could be, that blows away everything we have before it. Im not comfortable with "everything that came before was just BS and was wrong".. "And all this time, through all these years, 'D', did not mean drive in your car" Null- and-void everything that came before.
 
I was hoping for some inspirational music, perhaps like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWMh-S7H5yg

Or perhaps something light hearted, like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8MhivnzHS8

Very nice touch edge10 :thumbsup

I`m sure the Admiral would be happy to know he is gone but not forgotten. In this anything goes universe we are now in it would be a nice touch if JJ brought him back as a Force Ghost. He is certainly as qualified as anyone else.

To quote The Admiral " May the Force be with you"
 
Last edited by a moderator:
So training is out. Let the Force develop in a sentient being, in its own way? If thats true, which it could be, that blows away everything we have before it. Im not comfortable with "everything that came before was just BS and was wrong".. "And all this time, through all these years, 'D', did not mean drive in your car" Null- and-void everything that came before.


To be fair, what sort of training have we ever actually seen?

"Open up and feel the Force flowing through you."

"Hey! That worked and I totally just was able to move faster than blaster bolts and deflect them with this Lightsaber I've never used before! Thanks, Ben!"

;)
 
To be fair, what sort of training have we ever actually seen?

"Open up and feel the Force flowing through you."

"Hey! That worked and I totally just was able to move faster than blaster bolts and deflect them with this Lightsaber I've never used before! Thanks, Ben!"

;)

You mean half a movie (or a darn good part of it) with Luke with Yoda? That kind of training or guidance? And we dont know how much more Luke went to Yoda after that.

You mean thanks, to whoever just "told me" Rey, you have the force.

Ok, that argument is getting old. No rights, no wrongs, Balance in the argument.
 
You mean half a movie (or a darn good part of it) with Luke with Yoda? That kind of training or guidance? And we dont know how much more Luke went to Yoda after that.

You mean thanks, to whoever just "told me" Rey, you have the force.

Ok, that argument is getting old. No rights, no wrongs, Balance in the argument.

But that's the thing though... people keep complaining about Rey not having any training. But really, all WE ever see of "training" in the films is Obi-Wan or Yoda telling Luke to reach out with his feelings, or to "do or do not." What's Yoda's final "lesson" to Luke? It's not some "here's the step by step instructions for how to levitate rocks" thing. He tells him that the only way he will become a Jedi is to confront Vader.

The point being, the Force was always kind of new-agey from the moment Lucas conceived of it. More of a being taught to feel it thing than a being taught how to do it thing.

So the Force is reaching out to people in new ways now. Rey feels it, and especially when it's used on her, she understands what it is she's feeling and is able to tap into it. I honestly don't understand why people have a hang up about Rey not being trained.
 
Last edited:
Plus, all the training we've seen has been been to be a Jedi, specifically to defeat the Sith.

Well, other than Yoda training younglings with training savers.

Either way, they were training to be Jedi, to use the Force in the Jedi way.

We don't know if just training in the force is any different, but any OT or PT training we've seen has been very narrowly focused.
 
But that's the thing though... people keep complaining about Rey not having any training. But really, all WE ever see of "training" in the films is Obi-Wan or Yoda telling Luke to reach out with his feelings, or to "do or do not." What's Yoda's final "lesson" to Luke? It's not some "here's the step by step instructions for how to levitate rocks" thing. He tells him that the only way he will become a Jedi is to confront Vader.

The point being, the Force was always kind of new-agey from the moment Lucas conceived of it. More of a being taught to feel it thing than a being taught how to do it thing.

So the Force is reaching out to people in new ways now. Rey feels it, and especially when it's used on her, she understands what it is she's feeling and is able to tap into it. I honestly don't understand why people have a hang up about Rey not being trained.

Hey now, I saw Luke, swing on vines, lift rocks, run forever with Yoda training him on his back and almost lifted his Xwing. Luke even ate Yoda's "special" soup, lol. And we still dont know how much time was spent on Dagobah... days.. weeks? Yoda didnt just say "hey Luke, you have the force"

But like I said, this is a mute point. Argued from both sides. She understands what she is feeling? The force is not a sexual thing...or is it ;)

- - - Updated - - -

Plus, all the training we've seen has been been to be a Jedi, specifically to defeat the Sith.

Well, other than Yoda training younglings with training savers.

Either way, they were training to be Jedi, to use the Force in the Jedi way.

We don't know if just training in the force is any different, but any OT or PT training we've seen has been very narrowly focused.

So was Sidious right? Learn both sides of the Force, not just the "dogmatic, narrow view of the Jedi"
 
But that's the thing though... people keep complaining about Rey not having any training. But really, all WE ever see of "training" in the films is Obi-Wan or Yoda telling Luke to reach out with his feelings, or to "do or do not." What's Yoda's final "lesson" to Luke? It's not some "here's the step by step instructions for how to levitate rocks" thing. He tells him that the only way he will become a Jedi is to confront Vader.

The point being, the Force was always kind of new-agey from the moment Lucas conceived of it. More of a being taught to feel it thing than a being taught how to do it thing.

So the Force is reaching out to people in new ways now. Rey feels it, and especially when it's used on her, she understands what it is she's feeling and is able to tap into it. I honestly don't understand why people have a hang up about Rey not being trained.

It took Luke years to get from where he was in ANH to ROTJ with the training of two different masters and whatever he did between movies. You feel like Luke earned what he had.

Rey was able to do the same in roughly in a week or two, if that. That's just too fast, imo. Feels a little cheap.
 
It took Luke years to get from where he was in ANH to ROTJ with the training of two different masters and whatever he did between movies. You feel like Luke earned what he had.

Rey was able to do the same in roughly in a week or two, if that. That's just too fast, imo. Feels a little cheap.

The answer to that, from the "light side users" is The Force Awakens....
 
So training is out. Let the Force develop in a sentient being, in its own way? If thats true, which it could be, that blows away everything we have before it. Im not comfortable with "everything that came before was just BS and was wrong".. "And all this time, through all these years, 'D', did not mean drive in your car" Null- and-void everything that came before.

Well, it comes back to the answer you hate to get. Supplemental material.

Clone Wars has The Mortis Trilogy in season three. Now, this is probably the last thing Lucas had direct input on before the Disney sale. He gave the whole arc to the CW writers, according to producer Dave Filoni.

It introduces Force-wielders, or The Ones, whom are sentient beings with no set corporeal form. The Father keeps the Son (dark side) and Daughter (light side) in balance. Father (yes, those are the character names) wanted Anakin to take his place to...wait for it...bring balance to the force.

Anyway, the whole thing is kinda weird and out-there, but it is from Lucas and is canon. And it really expands the way The Force can be understood. Also see the weird Bendu arc in Rebels, which makes Yoda's lightning look like a cheap parlor trick.
 
Rey was able to do the same in roughly in a week or two, if that. That's just too fast, imo. Feels a little cheap.

Maybe a book or some other source says specifically how much time took place between when Rey first started using the Force and when she arrived on Luke's island... but from the film, we don't know. JJ Abrams wrote Last Jedi into a corner by very specifically necessitating it pick up right where TFA smash cut to end credits. But what we don't know is the length of the trip to the island. The map looked like it spanned a rather significant portion of the galaxy, so how long did it take to get there? We don't know. Star Wars has always played loose with how fast hyperspace really is, with the most widely accepted speed being "however fast the plot requires."

Having said that, sure, her training definitely feels accelerated. But her demonstrated Force abilities so far are mind control and moving objects. She clearly had established combat proficiency long before she ever saw a Lightsaber. So that definitely feels earned to me.

How did Luke learn to fight? Were there frequent brawls over power converters at Tosche Station that we never saw? In the film, it certainly feels like Luke is only training with Yoda for a few days before rushing off and then actually not doing too poorly against Vader. OR we can hypothesize that it actually took some time to get to Bespin in a Falcon with a broken hyperdrive, and therefore Luke was training for awhile with Yoda (potentially learning something of Lightsaber combat).

The point being, it's not like Star Wars has never required fans to rationalize their suspension of disbelief before. It all boils down to what you're willing to go with. For me, Rey's abilities are not a deal breaker.
 
Totally agree.

I think the Jedi 'sold out' when they agreed to become generals in the Clone Wars. That led to their downfall...& who was the architect of all that?

Sidious.

One of my favorite Jedi and a quote "I cannot fight a war for you, Your Highness. I can only protect you"

The Jedi decided to fight a war. I agree with you, their downfall.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Maybe a book or some other source says specifically how much time took place between when Rey first started using the Force and when she arrived on Luke's island... but from the film, we don't know. JJ Abrams wrote Last Jedi into a corner by very specifically necessitating it pick up right where TFA smash cut to end credits. But what we don't know is the length of the trip to the island. The map looked like it spanned a rather significant portion of the galaxy, so how long did it take to get there? We don't know. Star Wars has always played loose with how fast hyperspace really is, with the most widely accepted speed being "however fast the plot requires."

Having said that, sure, her training definitely feels accelerated. But her demonstrated Force abilities so far are mind control and moving objects. She clearly had established combat proficiency long before she ever saw a Lightsaber. So that definitely feels earned to me.

How did Luke learn to fight? Were there frequent brawls over power converters at Tosche Station that we never saw? In the film, it certainly feels like Luke is only training with Yoda for a few days before rushing off and then actually not doing too poorly against Vader. OR we can hypothesize that it actually took some time to get to Bespin in a Falcon with a broken hyperdrive, and therefore Luke was training for awhile with Yoda (potentially learning something of Lightsaber combat).

The point being, it's not like Star Wars has never required fans to rationalize their suspension of disbelief before. It all boils down to what you're willing to go with. For me, Rey's abilities are not a deal breaker.

There is no good reason to believe that Rey was hanging around the Resistance base for a long period of time between using the force and leaving to find Luke. Especially when you consider Poe did not meet her until TLJ. They manage to perfectly avoid each other for weeks/months? They don't run into each other around the base or visiting Finn while he's healing? It just make a lot more sense that she left immediately. Kylo's facial wound is also still fresh enough to need a bandage. I can't believe that it takes some extensively long time to heal a wound like that.

It doesn't just feel accelerated. She dives into Kylo's mind and pulls out a specific fact. That's like what the Jedi masters do to kid-Anakin. They literally read his thoughts "Your thoughts are with your mother" etc. So she is demonstrating something that highly advanced force users do. And it's her first go at it. Same with her using Force-persuasion. And it's canon that 3 years past between ANH and ESB. Luke couldn't lift the X-Wing, but Rey can lift multiple giant rocks and maneuver them all with ease. It does not feel earned, not in the slightest.

I have no problem with her weapon proficiency. They actually should have had her use a lightsaber to carve a tunnel in the rocks. At least that would be in line with her abilities and what we see on screen, since she chops that rock right in half with one.

Luke uses blasters in ANH. And he had 3 years between ANH and ESB to train his force abilities and practice with a lightsaber. According to ''SW: The Essential Atlas" it took weeks for the Falcon to get from Hoth to Bespin. So, Luke likely was training with Yoda for weeks. The book is technically no longer canon, but this has also been corroborated with the "Star Wars in 100 Scenes", which is current Disney canon.

Rey's progress just doesn't fit in with what we know about the force and how long it takes to cultivate these kinds of abilities. Why is "nobody" Rey better at using the force, and quicker at using it, than the family of a force-messiah? I won't call it a deal-breaker, but it certainly makes Rey look like the Mary-Sue that people want to accuse her of being.
 
Last edited:
Rey's progress just doesn't fit in with what we know about the force and how long it takes to cultivate these kinds of abilities.

That's kind of exactly the point. I don't disagree that her proficiency is fast. However, I can also accept implied stretches of time in the narrative that you apparently don't... and that's fine. The structure *IS* vague enough to open to a lot of interpretation. Except, I also accept that the entire premise is that the Force is doing something unexpected and beyond even Luke's comprehension. He literally said that the only time he has seen raw power as strong as Rey's was... Kylo.

And what's been holding Kylo back? His staunch refusal to give up his emotional turmoil. He's basically standing in his own way by believing he has to live up to some legacy and resenting his parents for wanting to protect him from that.

I find the fact that Rey doesn't come from any important family a better testament of the Force than had she some well-known heritage. I mean, if the strongest abilities keep landing within the same small sets of families, that doesn't really speak very highly of the Force... the Skywalker's, for example, haven't exactly had the best track record.
 
I`m not really sure what your points were about my post? As in any of them. Feminazis?

Bryan and I had an interesting little discussion that ended on a positive moment by both of us. As you come into the conversation 108 pages in, maybe you should do a little more research.

Yes, there is a some hypocrisy on my behalf for posting an article that deals with financial matters when I post they dont matter in the forum but I think its just shows how much some people, have tunnel vision to post about that straight off the bat rather than the actual content of the post, which was totally ignored altogether by those same people.

Oh, all that based on a spelling error...now I get it, thanks for the english lesson

Might be because it wasn't aimed at you or anyone specific. Just that in general, why bring something unrelated to the table. Like the all fem-ghostbusters. Being women had nothing to do with the film being sucky. Had they cast random male cast it would still have been equally bad. TLJ wouldn't be better or worse no matter the % of women/men in the cast. Again not aimed at you ;)

Only thing aimed at you were the STUPID correction of "your", which is an extremely common error.
 
This thread is more than 3 years old.

Your message may be considered spam for the following reasons:

  1. This thread hasn't been active in some time. A new post in this thread might not contribute constructively to this discussion after so long.
If you wish to reply despite these issues, check the box below before replying.
Be aware that malicious compliance may result in more severe penalties.
Back
Top