Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release)

What did you think of Star Wars: The Last Jedi?

  • It was great. Loved it. Don't miss it at the theaters.

    Votes: 154 26.6%
  • It was good. Liked it very much. Worth the theater visit.

    Votes: 135 23.4%
  • It was okay. Not too pleased with it. Could watch it at the cinema once or wait for home video.

    Votes: 117 20.2%
  • It was disappointing. Watch it on home video instead.

    Votes: 70 12.1%
  • It was bad. Don't waste your time with it.

    Votes: 102 17.6%

  • Total voters
    578
Luke gets in a spaceship and blows up the Death Star after never leaving Tatooine - there isn't more compelling evidence than that.
 
No, I do not think I'm making an assumption on my own. I think the proof is in the nature of the forced female characters. No, I didn't contrive this, I observed this and brought it to the table as I'm sure others have as well. I do apologize for not giving examples, I wanted to be brief, and I do realize re-reading what I wrote it comes off harsh and like a rant which it pretty much was because I was so disappointed in the film. I will elaborate since you are kindly asking me to.

First off, it's not news that Kathleen Kennedy is trying to make leaps and bounds for equal opportunity for females in the film industry and I'm sure she has had major influence on Rian's Directing and writing in this film as she has in all the Star Wars films since she took charge. She has stated that in regards to the Star Wars saga, she owe's nothing to the predominantly male audience. Though I disagree with such statements I'd rather address and be clear that I have nothing against female leads and trying to market and appeal to women in the Star Wars franchise. I'm all for equality. The problem with The Last Jedi, is that the additional Female presence felt really forced, therefore it felt overwhelmingly obvious, and slanted towards a female gender targeted audience. These added female characters were underdeveloped and there roles in the story so ridiculous and unbelievable it felt like they were just trying so hard to create more female roles for the sake of having female roles it didn't matter how it effected the story. This is why in my analysis the film was obviously skewed towards one side more than the other. In other words they were trying too hard to write these parts in for the sake of appeal instead of letting it happen in a more fluid like fashion that benefits a better story.

first, thank you for replying honestly. :)

I don't know that i agree it was overly forced. The only real female characters added of any substance were Holdo and Rose. I expect Rose to continue, so "underdeveloped" doesn't really apply because we have only yet been introduced to her.

Holdo has a backstory in Bloodline... she was a longtime ally of Leia's. I rather liked Laura Dern's performance, and even though she did dress Poe down quite a bit, she wasn't wrong about him, and he realized it by the end.

Rose's sister Paige we didn't really get to know, but i don't think she was meant to be a significant character...so in that sense she isn't different from any male background pilot whom we are shown saying a coupe of things and then they are blown up. Her purpose was to create loss and a sense of determination for Rose.


I'm sorry... but this doesn't seem "forced" to me. We still have plenty of male main characters on hand.
 
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The FO is bad. There is plenty of secondary media where they do bad stuff if shooting defenseless villagers is not enough for a person.

In TLJ Rose states how the FO mined her world and poisoned inhabitants to test weapons.
 
Which roles felt "forced"?

What about those roles made them feel "forced"?

Well, mainly admiral Holdo and Rose but even Phasma was forced.

They did such a poor job writing in Holdo that her role in this film was completely unnecessary especially when we had Leia, Ackbar and Po. They could have taken the story in so many better directions utilizing these characters. Instead they kill off Ackbar almost the same moment he appears, make a fool out of Leia putting her in a mystical sleep, and undermine the bad ass resistance pilot we saw in the previous film in order to make way for this nonsensical character Holdo. They brought her in out of thin air with little to no background and made her look like a power trip who just wanted to be respected and trusted without proving herself so she could make a statement with her death and be a hero. It made no sense not to just tell Po other than creating multiple unnecessary subplots for Her and Rose to be apart of. Without Holdo's ridiculous plan and intent to keep it a secret for no reason, Roses character and role in the film become obsolete and non existent. So, now we have Rose who takes Fin out of the main picture to go on a marry goose chase to kill time. It felt so unattached. Then She completely contradicts herself and ruins what could have been the best character moment for Fin. He has spent all his time running from the First Order selfishly to save himself or Rey, now at a time when all seems lost for the rebellion he decides to give his life in scrifice to save what he has come to love, the rebellion. But then Rose stops him and says you don't want to win by fighting what you hate, you have to do it by saving what you love. Which totally contradicts what her sister died for, trying to win by destroying the dreadnought that fought for the first order which she hated in order to save the rebellion which she loved and is exactly what Fin was trying to do. Rose sacrificed nothing so that Finn would survive but the rebellion could be destroyed? It's totally nonsense! Regarding Phasma, Ok we thought she was dead in the last film but Ok whatever she's cool give us some developement...nah 4 minutes in...dead for real this time, I mean why even bring Her back just to give us nothing but a quick fight scene? Forced. There is so much more but it's tiring.
 
Well, mainly admiral Holdo and Rose but even Phasma was forced.

They did such a poor job writing in Holdo that her role in this film was completely unnecessary especially when we had Leia, Ackbar and Po. They could have taken the story in so many better directions utilizing these characters. Instead they kill off Ackbar almost the same moment he appears, make a fool out of Leia putting her in a mystical sleep, and undermine the bad ass resistance pilot we saw in the previous film in order to make way for this nonsensical character Holdo. They brought her in out of thin air with little to no background and made her look like a power trip who just wanted to be respected and trusted without proving herself so she could make a statement with her death and be a hero. It made no sense not to just tell Po other than creating multiple unnecessary subplots for Her and Rose to be apart of. Without Holdo's ridiculous plan and intent to keep it a secret for no reason, Roses character and role in the film become obsolete and non existent. So, now we have Rose who takes Fin out of the main picture to go on a marry goose chase to kill time. It felt so unattached. Then She completely contradicts herself and ruins what could have been the best character moment for Fin. He has spent all his time running from the First Order selfishly to save himself or Rey, now at a time when all seems lost for the rebellion he decides to give his life in scrifice to save what he has come to love, the rebellion. But then Rose stops him and says you don't want to win by fighting what you hate, you have to do it by saving what you love. Which totally contradicts what her sister died for, trying to win by destroying the dreadnought that fought for the first order which she hated in order to save the rebellion which she loved and is exactly what Fin was trying to do. Rose sacrificed nothing so that Finn would survive but the rebellion could be destroyed? It's totally nonsense! Regarding Phasma, Ok we thought she was dead in the last film but Ok whatever she's cool give us some developement...nah 4 minutes in...dead for real this time, I mean why even bring Her back just to give us nothing but a quick fight scene? Forced. There is so much more but it's tiring.

Leia.. loved by all

Rose who?
Holdoor who?
Wasn't Phasma supposed to...umm.,,,,nvmd..she dead..

I agree 100% about Finn
 
I don't think the films really bear out what you describe, though. Luke didn't really have much training, as far as we know.

Luke gets about as much training as Rey, and yet he's a total badass by ROTJ.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

I think you're forgetting a lot about the OT, though.

Luke was, by his own statements, bullseying womprats in his T-16, which is apparently some amazing task. He trains with Ben for a few hours on the Falcon (being generous here), and is able to block blaster bolts blind, and then use the Force to take out the Death Star in a "one in a million" shot. He gets no training at all after that, and is able to pull his sabre from the snowbank in ESB. He gets a couple of days (Maybe? It's not entirely clear, given the way that hyperspace travel moves at the "speed of plot" in these movies) training with Yoda and is able to lift rocks, stand on one hand, have Force visions of the future, and almost lift his ship out of the swamp on Dagobah, then duel Vader and make Force leaps out of the carbon freezing unit to the rafters above, and finally telepathically call to Leia.

He then gets zero training from that point forward, and yet, between ESB and ROTJ is now a total badass warrior on the edge of being a Jedi, who can Force choke guards, call his lightsabre to him after R2 shoots it out to him, flip and launch himself from one sail barge to another, block blaster fire, duel Vader to a win and almost kill him but only after he gains control of himself, and survive the Emperor's lighting attack. Again, all with zero additional training.

My point is that Luke gets very, very little training, and is amazingly capable.

You can go back farther and look at Anakin, who is the only human capable of pod racing and -- at 9 years old -- wins the Boonta Eve Classic. Zero training. Certainly he becomes a lot more powerful after having been trained, but arguably his training (and the strictures of the Jedi Order) were what led him to becoming Darth Vader in the first place.

Basically, latent Force ability can manifest very early on, and requires no training to use, although training may teach you to control your abilities better. I don't see it as having anything to do with male vs. female. Rey is able to do this stuff the same way Luke was able to as a farm boy. Arguably, she's more powerful because she, like Ben, is sort of the "champion" of one side of the Force. (Assuming that description wasn't bunk that Snoke made up.)

I don't see it as pandering or "forcing" things at all, really. Like, basically, I don't bat an eye at Luke being able to do what he does in any of the movies, so why should it be surprising to me that Rey can do what she does? Granted, she does more in the first movie than Luke did, but Luke didn't really need to use his Force powers in the first movie. He didn't duel anyone, and basically only lit his sabre in Obi-Wan's house the first time he swung it around, and on the Falcon while learning about the Force. And then in ESB, he can pull the lightsabre to him. No reason he couldn't have done that before.

I dunno. Part of me thinks that folks are treating some of this stuff like one of the old Jedi Knight video games, and thinking of it in terms of "But your character can't do that until Level 5 at the earliest! How the hell is this possible?!" It was always possible.

Bear in mind that at one point in time (I believe between ANH and ESB), people questioned whether anyone other than a Jedi or Jedi trainee could even use a sabre -- like, including turning it on -- if they didn't have The Force. Until Han cut open a tauntaun to shove Luke inside....

Luke is merely stating he can hit something 2 meters wide. No one in the SW universe claims it is an amazing feat to bullseye a womprat. And if you think about it, he's talking about it like a past time...something a lot of people do on Tatooine for amusement or even pest control.

We don't know how long Luke and OWK were on the Falcon. But at least it was some form of training before he started advance use of the force.

Luke was guided by OWK in the Trench-run. In fact, Luke was going to use the targeting computer. So he had help with that one.

It would be silly to think Luke does nothing to learn about or cultivate the force in the time between ANH and ESB. I have no problem with him being able to force-pull a lightsaber...especially since it took effort and did not just fly into his hand instantly.

I read that 'SW: The Essential Atlas" says the Falcon took weeks to get to Bespin. Outside of a better source, I'll say Luke had at least 2 weeks with Yoda. And Yoda gave him plenty of meditative training that accounts for force-leaping or balancing on one hand, which is something real life humans can do without the force.

He didn't telepathically call to Leia, he reached out with the Force. An ability he already had. He was also desperate and that can make people do all sorts of things they never did before.

It was at least a year between ESB and ROTJ. And again, silly to think he did nothing in that time. Pretty much all of the abilities in ROTJ are just stronger version of ESB or ANH.

Luke had years to go from ANH to ROTJ. He was trained before he used any advanced force ability. And he demonstrated a reasonable progression of power and ability.

Rey was displaying advanced Force use without any training at all. Her progression was extremely quick, a few days at best. And the only training she did have was the finger-tickle that according to Luke went wrong.

And if you want to really bring up Anakin. He was born from the Force. Rey is nobody so why is she better at the force than the family of a force-messiah?
 
My two cents when it comes to Rey Vs Luke and the Force:

How strong one is with the Force is heavily influenced by how much they believe in the Force in-addition to their "force-sensitivity".

Luke:
Yoda said that Luke fails because he doesn't believe. His ability to manipulate the Force already existed. Luke doubted and therefore struggled. But he did have a natural knack for it, and had great potential, but also had the potential to become another Vader (Remember his failure at the cave).

Rey:
Rey was already shown to be able to take care of herself (ie. fight and fight well) when she attacked Finn and protected BB-8 on Jakku. How much different is fighting with a staff vs a Lightsaber? Rey could do what she could with the Force because she believed she could once she was told she had the ability to do it.

Being able to use the Force has nothing to do with training. Training is for focus and discipline. Some people are good at picking-up on things naturally, others need an instruction manual. Luke needed an instruction manual, Rey did not.
 
First off, I didn't hate the movie. I was fine with Rey's background and thought it was wise to dump Snoke, a poorly conceived Emperor retread, in order to focus on Rey and Kylo's unique relationship going forward.

My biggest issue with the movie (besides Luke being uncharitably reconceived as a sad sack) is that it often slows things down with irrelevant information. The basic mechanics of the storytelling felt sloppy. Here are two examples, one very small, one large (sorry if these have already been discussed. Trying to catch up but it's a mighty big thread):

1) On Crait, just before the battle begins, we see Resistance soldiers jumping into the trenches. At some point it cuts to a soldier as he rubs his finger on the ground, licks the finger, an in total seriousness says, "salt."

Is there a plot point I missed that required us to know we're looking at salt? Did they want to be extra sure the audience wasn't confusing the planet with Hoth? Was it some kind of in-joke?

Again, it's a small thing but when your movie is already stuffed to the gills, small distractions tend to add up. I worked for a few years as a documentary editor and the rules are remarkably similar to fiction storytelling. One of the most valuable lessons I learned is that you don't include information unless it serves the story being told. I honestly can't figure out why that shot made the final edit.

2) The more serious example is Yoda. The movie has a great scene where Rey gives Luke a much needed literal kick in the pants (the sparring scene in the rain). Rey — all youthful optimism and hope personified — reminds the bitter, spooked old man why he needs to get off his pity pot and back into action. I thought it was one of the best scenes in the movie. But then they eventually cut back to Luke and not only is he still feeling sorry for himself, but ghost Yoda shows up to give him yet another pep talk!

To me, the Yoda scene is not only redundant but, worse, his presence basically undercuts the previous interaction with Rey, which was a far more dynamic and interesting way to snap Luke out of his funk. Once again, the movie kills momentum with extraneous information.

And I agree about Phasma. If Johnson couldn't figure out a better way to integrate her into the story, he should have cut the character out completely. The last thing this movie needed was more padding.

I've only seen the movie once but it gave the impression of being bogged down with little bits of trivial, distracting moments like those. I think that's a legitimate beef to have with this or any other movie.
 
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As soon as people found out that Star Wars was not George Lucas any longer...the minds had been already made up about any movie that followed.... They can deny it, but its true.. I was one of them.

Here's the problem: Star Wars was never good when it was left to the devices of just one person.

Even the original film was a disaster until Lucas enlisted the help of friends and family to reshape the film to make it more marketable... more corporate. What we got still retained a lot of his original ideas, but was a much stronger product.

Left solely to his own vision, what we get is the mess of the prequels. Still a lot of good ideas, but lousy storytelling.

I suspect that what a lot of people are really upset with about this film is that it actually is pretty close to one person's vision, but that one person wasn't George Lucas. Disney allowed Rian Johnson a lot of leeway in crafting the story he wanted to tell. And the story he wanted to tell simply did not mesh with a lot of fan expectations. But then people forget that the Prequels wound up not being at all what most hoped they would be, either.
 
Well, mainly admiral Holdo and Rose but even Phasma was forced.

They did such a poor job writing in Holdo that her role in this film was completely unnecessary especially when we had Leia, Ackbar and Po. They could have taken the story in so many better directions utilizing these characters. Instead they kill off Ackbar almost the same moment he appears, make a fool out of Leia putting her in a mystical sleep, and undermine the bad ass resistance pilot we saw in the previous film in order to make way for this nonsensical character Holdo. They brought her in out of thin air with little to no background and made her look like a power trip who just wanted to be respected and trusted without proving herself so she could make a statement with her death and be a hero. It made no sense not to just tell Po other than creating multiple unnecessary subplots for Her and Rose to be apart of. Without Holdo's ridiculous plan and intent to keep it a secret for no reason, Roses character and role in the film become obsolete and non existent.

I don't see Holdo that way at all. I mean, I agree that she has no real backstory, but then, neither did Admiral Ackbar in ROTJ. Or General Madine. Or General Dodonna. Or General Rieekan. Or Mon Mothma. Pretty much everyone who wasn't Leia has no backstory as far as their role within the Rebellion or the Resistance. Why is the Alliance fleet suddenly commanded by some random fish dude? It's never explained. You're just supposed roll with it. Same story here.

I think what sets folks' teeth on edge about Holdo is two things.

1. She puts Poe in his place.

I see this as entirely appropriate. She doesn't have to tell Poe what her plan is or her reasoning. Poe's an idiot in this film. And the fact that he's an idiot in this film doesn't destroy his badassery, so much as recontextualize it. I've seen other folks discuss how Holdo should've been more forthcoming with her plan to Poe. To this, I say: Why? Why does he deserve an explanation? Why does he deserve anything other than "Shut up and follow my orders, Captain." From my perspective, he doesn't.

Consider the circumstances for a second. Poe's recklessness didn't just endanger Poe himself. It endangered -- indeed, cost the Resistance -- all of it's heavy bombers. He deliberately disobeyed orders to pursue an idiotic mission that, yes, destroyed a dreadnought, but for no ultimate purpose. Attacking the dreadnought was foolish, wasteful, and short-sighted. Poe's mission was to delay the enemy fleet and provide cover for the escaping fleet. It was not to destroy the enemy dreadnought. But he was only thinking tactically, and about how they could take out a big ship. Well, BFD. The First Order has a gajillion big ships, and blowing this one up will not mean a damn thing. Meanwhile, the cost to the Resistance is extremely high both in terms of personnel and materiel. After that, he gets demoted and the fleet jumps out...only to be followed by the First Order, which kills the bulk of the command staff, nearly kills Leia, and leaves only Holdo in command....and now Poe is demanding to know what's going on? As I recall, at that point, nobody's 100% sure how the First Order is following them. It could be a tracker, but the tracker could've been planted by a spy who'll report back to the First Order what any plans are, so telling anyone outside of the command staff anything may be putting the entire Resistance at risk. Plus, Holdo has the stress of being in command now with basically nobody else left...and in the midst of this, here comes some pain in the ass hotshot who acts like he's owed any information at all, when he's lucky he wasn't spaced on the spot for disregarding orders and costing the Resistance so many lives and so much equipment.

I think, however, that the response people have to this is "WTF? She should tell him what's going on, and not be such a jerk to him!" And I think they have this response because of...

2. Latent sexism.

To be clear, I'm not suggesting that the people who respond badly to Holdo are themselves raging sexists who affirmatively believe that women are inferior. Rather, I think they're more likely falling victim to, and failing to realize the impact of, the sexism in society at large. The first response for many when seeing Holdo in charge is "Who the hell is this?!" From that flows pretty much every other criticism of her character, from being high-handed and needlessly secretive, to her being rude or mean or whatever. It's all based on this underlying notion that she doesn't belong in that position. It's not even a conscious notion, really, and it sits right alongside everyone absolutely accepting (for example) that Leia is running the entire Resistance. No problem there. But that doesn't mean it isn't coming as a result of sexism.

The way I see it, try a little thought exercise. Take Laura Dern out of the film, replace her with, say, Idris Elba or Bruce Greenwood or Brian Cox or (etc., etc., etc.), and ask yourself if you'd really have a problem with the character. You don't have to answer me, but I'm betting that a lot of people, if they're being honest, would probably have a lot less of a problem with any of these actors in that role. That's sexism. Not conscious, "go make me a sammich" sexism, but unconscious discomfort at a woman (A) being in a role traditionally held by a man (or a fish-man), and (B) talking down to a man, especially one who has previously proven himself in combat (even if he also proved himself to be a fool in his last sortie). Again, I am not saying that you're some kind of woman-hating knuckle-dragging MRA red-pill blogger. I'm saying that your response is a kind of conditioned response borne of the sexism inherent in our society, and that's exactly why having roles like Holdo are important: they break that sort of thing down.

You know what the ideal response to a character like Holdo should be?

Nothing. Nothing whatsoever. Nobody bats an eye at it, whether Holdo is a woman, a man, a fish-man, a fish-woman, or whatever. It shouldn't matter at all. But because we live in a sexist society, when people try to push back against that, it sticks out and folks respond. Which, to me, proves that there needs to be more challenging of those kinds of norms, because they're arbitrary, artificial, and wholly unnecessary.

So, now we have Rose who takes Fin out of the main picture to go on a marry goose chase to kill time. It felt so unattached. Then She completely contradicts herself and ruins what could have been the best character moment for Fin. He has spent all his time running from the First Order selfishly to save himself or Rey, now at a time when all seems lost for the rebellion he decides to give his life in scrifice to save what he has come to love, the rebellion. But then Rose stops him and says you don't want to win by fighting what you hate, you have to do it by saving what you love. Which totally contradicts what her sister died for, trying to win by destroying the dreadnought that fought for the first order which she hated in order to save the rebellion which she loved and is exactly what Fin was trying to do. Rose sacrificed nothing so that Finn would survive but the rebellion could be destroyed? It's totally nonsense!

Rose's character indeed does not end up being introduced if Finn doesn't try to leave the ship. And Finn doesn't try to leave the ship if Poe doesn't tell him to do so, because Poe is an idiot (still, at this point) and thinks he knows best. So, that part I'll give you, although I dispute that that makes the character "forced." She's not "forced." She's organically involved in the story, based on the events that play out. It's not like "Hey, we need an Asian woman who isn't as conventionally attractive as a character we'll show to be her now-dead sister who joins Finn on his chase. So...uh...write me a storyline that fits her in, k?" The storyline is playing out without Rose, and Rose ends up caught up in those events -- exactly like Finn did in TFA. Rose also doesn't contradict herself. To the contrary, she learns from her sister's mistake. Rose's sister gave her life for the Resistance...and it was a waste. Yes, they took out a dreadnought. But they didn't need to. She didn't need to die. None of the bomber crews did. That was Poe's mistake, and again, it came partially from a view of fighting because you hate the First Order, not because you're trying to protect what you love. Or at least not enough because you're trying to protect what you love.

As for Finn's character arc, the arc of "no more running" already happened. That was in TFA. It's how he wound up in the medbay: he decided to fight for the Resistance and his friends, and to try to help Rey (and it got him slashed up the back by Kylo Ren's lightsabre). That wasn't his arc in this film. In this film, he's fully on board as part of the Resistance. But he's still operating at least partially out of a place of hatred towards the First Order (understandably, given his experiences).

I'm going to try to put this into a context that may make more sense on the issue of "Fight for what you love."

A couple of months ago, I was driving around town. Usually I drive my daughter to daycare, so she spends a lot of time in the car with me. She wasn't in the car with me that day, but I'll get to that in a second. Anyway, I'm driving around town for whatever reason, and I'm in the left-hand lane on a 2-lane street in an urban center, as a guy in a pickup truck is driving along maybe 2 feet in front of me in the righthand lane. There's a car double-parked about 100 feet ahead, and I'm pulling forward, as the guy in the trick starts slowing down. I suspect that he's about to cut over into my lane, but I'm already there, I've got traffic behind me, and he hasn't bothered to put his turn signal on anyway. So I drive ahead as he starts coming over anyway, and I beep my horn at him. He then proceeds to tailgate me for another two blocks, until we come to a red light, at which point he angrily climbs out of his truck, walks over to my car, and starts pounding on my window. My drivers' side door was unlocked at the time, and he yanks that open and starts screaming at me to get the F out of the car because I knew what he wanted to do and he's gonna kick my ass now. I just look at him, say "No," pull the door shut, and lock it. He pounds on the window a couple more times, then stalks angrily back to his truck. When the light turns green, at his first opportunity, he races ahead of me at full speed.

I told my wife about the story, and was thinking about what I would have done if our daughter was in the car. And this is where the Poe/Finn thing comes in.

Option 1: Get out of the car and fight the sonofabitch because he would've terrified my daughter, and any ******* who does that is stepping into a world of hurt.

Option 2: Nothing. Lock the doors, stare straight ahead, and drive away at the first opportunity.


The Poe/Finn response is Option 1. Makes perfect sense, from a certain perspective...until you start thinking about the longer-term costs. What happens when I kick this guy's ass and he sues me? How is my fighting him going to make my daughter any less terrorized in the moment? What if I lose the fight? What happens then? My daughter is stranded in the car, with her father badly hurt or worse (because this dude was NUTS, and who knows what he'd have done), and she's now doubly terrified AND in danger. So, the upside here is that I prove that I'm a badass, I back this guy off or beat his ass, and life goes on. That's the best case scenario. Every other scenario is BAD for me and worse for my daughter. Daddy goes to jail. Daddy is in the hospital. Daddy is dead on the sidewalk, and she's stuck in the car. I know a LOT of guys who would instinctively just go with Option 1.

And you know what? That's the dumbest ****ing thing in the world that you could do, unless this guy was directly threatening my daughter. In the meantime, I have options (e.g., Option 2) that are far safer AND which keep my daughter safe. And it comes at the cost of...what? My ego? Maybe this guy breaks my side mirror? Big deal. I can get that replaced. And then I'll stick him with the bill and have him arrested for making terroristic threats. Option 2 is better unless and until I have no other choice. And if I have a choice, I should pick Option 2.

Why? Because I'm protecting what I love more with Option 2 than with Option 1. Even if Option 1 is the more "traditionally heroic" choice. It's also the deeply stupid, dangerous, and reckless choice that accomplishes next to nothing and comes at extreme cost to the people I love. That's the lesson that Finn learns by the end of the movie, adn that Poe learns as well.

Regarding Phasma, Ok we thought she was dead in the last film but Ok whatever she's cool give us some developement...nah 4 minutes in...dead for real this time, I mean why even bring Her back just to give us nothing but a quick fight scene? Forced. There is so much more but it's tiring.

Phasma's sex is irrelevant, as I see it. Male, female, doesn't really matter. She's the Boba Fett of this trilogy: cool looking armor, crap combatant, in spite of her reputation. That the character is female strikes me as entirely beside the point, and not any more "forced" than Boba Fett was.
 
first, thank you for replying honestly. :)

I don't know that i agree it was overly forced. The only real female characters added of any substance were Holdo and Rose. I expect Rose to continue, so "underdeveloped" doesn't really apply because we have only yet been introduced to her.

Holdo has a backstory in Bloodline... she was a longtime ally of Leia's. I rather liked Laura Dern's performance, and even though she did dress Poe down quite a bit, she wasn't wrong about him, and he realized it by the end.

Rose's sister Paige we didn't really get to know, but i don't think she was meant to be a significant character...so in that sense she isn't different from any male background pilot whom we are shown saying a coupe of things and then they are blown up. Her purpose was to create loss and a sense of determination for Rose.


I'm sorry... but this doesn't seem "forced" to me. We still have plenty of male main characters on hand.


I think the pivotal point we are disagreeing on is the quality of these female characters, how they were written, and how they effected the story to go in a direction that was unnecessary.

see my previous post that speaks to this. Post #1825
 
It's kind of funny how people are upset about how Luke has been portrayed in TLJ. Should have been prepared for it since the opening crawl of TFA.

"Luke Skywalker has vanished"
 
People are a bit hung up a few things in this movie. It's been discussed and debated ad infinitum and it will undoubtedly continue. I think it's silly that some are going as far as to nitpick some of these details - when we didn't get some of the details in the OT.

Rey's parentage. I think the only reason Kylo addressed it the way he did was fan service. There's no evidence that Rey thought her family was nothing less than "nobodies," except that they were hers. She just wanted them back - there's nothing to support that she was a Skywalker, Solo, Kenobi, Palpatine or anyone else.

Holdo, Phasma, Snoke are all character that served a purpose and that purpose was to move the story along. Their backstories are unnecessary to the arcs in these movies - but, you'll have countless other ways to explore them.

Holdo is just another officer. Like Dodonna, Ackbar, or even Tarkin or Jerjerrod. We have the info we need for her arc and her way to move the story along - we know she's a Vice Admiral, we know she had some battle that she received some acclaim for and we know that Leia trusted her.

Phasma. Stop trying to make Phasma happen. I'll give folks some leeway on Phasma. I didn't care much for Boba Fett (blasphemy, I know) - and she seemed liked they tried to force a Fett-esque character. She never really worked for me. Except that she had a personal vendetta against Finn.

Snoke got the same treatment Palps got in the OT (actually - we probably got more). From what we've seen onscreen we don't know much about our buddy Darth Sidious (until TLJ, we didn't even have that). Snoke is here because Ben Solo needed a Master.
 
I would sure like to know the actual wording of the supposed quote(s) where Kennedy says she "owes nothing to the primarily male audience."

I don't see any superfluous female characters. You can maybe make the argument that Rose is an unnecessary character, but that has nothing to do with her gender and everything to do with the plot.
 
Kennedy has been pushing the females are better thing since disney bought lucasfilm. She's been photographed with other women in her little circle, wearing shirts that say "the force is female." What the **** does that even mean?!?!?! She definitely has an agenda and it's hurting the stories... But who gives a crap I guess because it rakes in that sweet sweet $$$$$
 
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