Because the way TLj ended restricts Ep9 to rethread Jedi. Pretty much all mysteries from TFA are resolved one way or another and no character arcs are really left unresolved unless anyone is interested in Finn and Rose’s romance. There’s nothing really to look forward to, the only logical way without jumping the shark would be Resistance needs to shoot First Order with lasers and Rey needs to lightsaber down Kylo Ren. If it was like Indiana Jones where evry film is an adventure of its own it would be fine to keep up the status quo but it’s not, these are connected. And no I don’t mean that TLJ should have rethread the ending of Empire but the middle of a three-piece act should not close down routes without opening new ones. Empire had “we gotta get Han back from Jabba”, and “Luke just learned something terrible that made them and us question a lot of things”, BTTF2 had the Doc stranded in the Old West and Marty’s chicken-problem/car accident subplot, Dead Man’s Chest had Jack eaten by the Kraken, Barbossa coming back from the dead, etc...
I don't see it that way. The film doesn't exactly end on a cliffhanger, but not everything is resolved. The First Order is in a far superior position to the Empire at the end of ESB, because the Resistance has been almost completely destroyed. There are, what, 100 people left in the Resistance? Fewer? They have, as far as we know, one ship: the Falcon. Literally. All the fighters? Destroyed in the hangar bay of the Raddus. All their capital ships? Gone. Destroyed by the First Order. All their bombers? Lost by Poe's stupid mission. All the materiel, all the weapons, everything has basically been left behind, except what could be loaded onto the Falcon. Maybe there are some hidden caches of equipment scattered around the galaxy, and maybe those outer rim allies will start to help, but the Resistance/New Rebellion is basically down to a handful of people.
On top of that, there's the much more interesting question of where the story goes from here in terms of the fate of the Jedi. What will Rey's Jedi order look like? What will it mean to be a Jedi the way Rey does it? Will the cycle that has been repeated in the previous two trilogies and into this third one be ended? Will Kylo Ren/Ben be redeemed? Will Rey destroy him? Will he destroy Rey? How will the FO be stopped? Will Poe be able to lead the Resistance now that he has learned from the errors of his past? Will Finn let go of his hate and fight for love instead? Does he have a future with Rose? And what of the children on the casino planet? What of Luke's ominous message of "See ya 'round, kid..."? Will Luke impart a final lesson to Rey? (There was a scene shot that was cut, which leaves that a possibility still.)
More importantly, I think the big question of "Where does Star Wars go from here?" needs to be answered. Will we abandon the notions of bloodlines and destiny, and take a new view of how the Force and these stories function? Will we continue to iterate the same kind of stories as the original trilogy, with yet more "evil empires" and stand-ins for the Sith/Jedi? How will all of that play out?
I suppose there is zero chance we will learn what Lucas thought they should do.
I don't think it matters, honestly. In fact, I think that's one of the underlying messages of the film: we need to be bold enough to move on from the past. Not to disregard it entirely, but also not to allow it to hold us back.
Listen to Yoda's message: "We are what they grow beyond." I think this is one of the most important messages in the film. Possibly in the entire franchise.
I don't have an answer, but am curious if others feel Rey changed as character at the end of this movie as opposed to TFA.
I think she absolutely did. Others have discussed it here to some extent, but I think Rey was searching for information, questioning her own identity, questioning all sorts of things and looking
outside of herself for someone to give her a solution. What she takes away from Luke on Ach To is very simple:
stop looking to everyone else to solve your problem, and fix it yourself. Even the "dark side cave" shows this to her. Rey asks who her parents are. What she's really asking is "Why am I this way? Who is responsible for me?" The cave shows an unending line of...herself. Rey is responsible for herself. Rey is the reason she is this way.
Rey holds the key to her own destiny. Not some master, not her parents, not a wise sage, not her adversary nor his master, not some mysterious cave.
Both Yoda and Leia say a similar message, in that Rey and the Resistance have everything they need. Rey will chart her own course now, as opposed to looking to other people to tell her where the path is, and how to walk it.
I am more and more coming to the conclusion that the continued attempt to brand Rey a Mary Sue suggests a deeply flawed understanding of what the concept of a Mary Sue actually is.
I’d love an explanation of why you disagree with the general definition of a wish fulfillment character who can perform tasks significantly better than should be possible given the amount of training or experience.
in the last movie it’s heavily implied that her incredibly unusual learning curve abilities have an explanation related to her past. In the movie it’s revealed that her past is no one from nowhere, the millionth of her name. She just has master level abilities without training because reasons.
so...in your opinion...what exactly IS a Mary Sue, since that somehow fails to qualify?
by the way, this is EXACTLY what I was talking about. If you disagree with my arguments. Disagree and give reasons, don’t just attack me. I shouldn’t have to come and ask you to explain why you think I shouldn’t even be allowed an opinion for posting something you dislike. That’s bullsht.
To add to what you wrote, which I 100% agree with...
The fact that Rey seems to know how to fix things seems pretty well directly related to the fact that she has apparently literally spent her entire life on Jakku scavenging downed Rebel and Imperial ships for usable parts. Seems to me like this might logically impart a knowledge of how these things work -- especially if being able to spot a working part for a junked one (or possibly being able to repair junked parts) would be the difference between a meal or being hungry.
Is her ability to fly exceptional? Sure. But so was Anakin's and so was Luke's. The entire structure of the Star Wars movies from the very get go was ordinary people who manage to accomplish extraordinary things the moment the adventure starts. And when it comes to spaceships in the Star Wars universe, the ability to be an expert pilot just seems to be about as common as the ability to be an average automobile driver is here in the real world. Either it's just not that complicated, or pretty much every major character we meet is an expert.
The Rey / Kylo fight seems to be a real sticking point. We know Kylo was injured, but there's another important factor here: Kylo was not trying to kill Rey. He was deliberately holding back because Snoke wanted Kylo to capture her -- much like Luke's fight with Vader in Empire should not have lasted as long as it did were it not for the fact that Vader was holding back. And Rey had just seen her friend struck down, and she believed she was going to die. Of course she's going to fight harder.
Rey also couldn't do everything by herself, nor did she succeed at everything. When escaping Jakku, she required the help of Finn to shoot down the TIE Fighters. Rey was the one who screwed up and released the Rathtars on Han's ship, and while that situation ultimately worked out, it could hardly be called a genius plan. While she could hit things with a blaster, she wasn't the greatest shot in the world. And so on.
Now, if people want to insist that even with all of this, she's still just "too good at things" and therefore must be a Mary Sue... fine. But remember, Luke went from a nobody farmboy with absolutely ZERO training to the guy who expertly flew an X-Wing and used the force to destroy the largest and most powerful weapon the galaxy has ever seen. And destroying the Death Star was after being the one to come up with the plan to rescue the princess, being the one to figure out how to escape the garbage disposal, somehow knowing Stormtroopers carry grappling hooks in their belts, being able to figure out the turret in the Falcon with zero instruction, and somehow being accepted into the Rebellion as a pilot absolutely no one questioning it.
To complain about Rey while giving Luke a pass is ridiculous.
So, the above mostly covers my own attitudes regarding the "Mary Sue" argument.
First, the classical "Mary Sue" is actually a form of
author wish fulfillment, where the author places
themselves in the "Mary Sue" role, and is basically perfect. The character has all the answers, is good at everything, never fails, saves the day, is beloved and respected by all she meets, and seems to be held in much higher regard or promoted beyond what would normally be expected. The character is usually female, too, which raises some questions about inherent sexism in the concept, although there's the male "Gary Stu" version as well so it's not as if it's
only women. Wesley Crusher, for example, is seen by many as a "Gary Stu" for Gene Roddenberry, in that he is this boy genius who realistically has no business being promoted to acting ensign, who likewise has no business being taken seriously by the ship's command staff, but somehow is always given a fair hearing and very often manages to save the day. Obviously that changed over the course of the show, and Wesley became more nuanced, and failed at times, too. But he's an example of a "Gary Stu"/"Mary Sue."
Rey...is not.
I think people are hung up on the notion that Rey's power
must come from
somewhere. It does. The film even explains it. The Force manifested in her in a way that was much stronger than anyone else. Rey doesn't understand it, and has shaky control over it (although she improves her control throughout the film). She doesn't know why she's this powerful or why this thing awakened in her. Luke tries to explain to her that the Force basically "chose" her, but Rey still wants more info. She asks who her parents are, in the sense of "do they explain why I am this way?" when she goes to the pit/cave thing. The pit responds by showing her...herself. She is who she is because the Force chose her, and for no other reason. She's not a secret Kenobi, she's not a Skywalker, she's not anyone. She's a nobody, born from nobodies. But she's a nobody who was chosen by the Force, who heeded the call when it came time, who helps those who need help because it's her instinct. Arguably, that's why the Force chose her. She's a being of good, in spite of the upbringing she had.
Seriously, people need to stop and think about that. Rey has
every reason to be filled with hatred and anger. Her parents
abandoned her, indeed,
sold her to Unkar Plutt for drinking money.
Nobody (as far as we know) has helped or protected her throughout her life, except Rey herself. It's been her against the galaxy since she was six years old (or so)...and yet when BB-8 comes along looking for help, what does she do? Does she turn him away? Does she say "Life's hard, droid. You're on your own"? No. She moves to protect BB-8 and shelter him. She could have sold him to Unkar Plutt, too, but she doesn't. At many points in the story, she could've said "Screw this. I'm looking out for
me." And each time, she doesn't. She chooses to help others. Arguably,
that is why the Force chose her, but it's never overtly explained.
I think one of the main messages of the film is that the Force could be with anyone. It's not about your bloodline or destiny or prophecies. All of that stuff just leads to dead-end hero worship, where people turn to someone else to solve their problems, and instead, this movie is saying "Take heart! You can do it yourself! You have that in you!" That, to me, is ultimately the message in movie as a whole. The cave apparently represent's Rey's greatest fear: that she has only herself to rely on. But she conquers that fear and learns it isn't entirely true, either. She learns, in my opinion, that she
can rely on herself -- that she's always been able to, really -- but that she also
has a family in the Resistance. They're what she'll fight for.
So, anyway, no, Rey is not a "Mary Sue" in my opinion, merely because she doesn't come from a famous bloodline (as far as we know). I mean, Kylo Ren could've been lying to her or masking the truth, or just telling her what he thinks she needs to hear. But even if it turns out that she's a Kenobi or something, I think the ultimate message is that that's not
why she's powerful. She's powerful because of her choices and who she is as a person unto herself, not her bloodline or her destiny. I
love that message in the film, and I hope it's one that JJ doesn't step on in the next one. To me, it's such a powerful, important message, especially at this point in history.
