Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release)

JPH said:

Dan,

The point behind forced diversity is that any criticism will be treated with cries of -ism. It is a cowardly attempt to create a bullet-proof character in hopes the asian market will embrace her simply because she is asian. A female market will emvrace her for being female. People using superficial qualities to accept and defend a terrible character, then accusing everyone *else* who see the character as deeply terrible, of being superficial.

The looks people are accusing the merit people if *being* the looks people.

The same folks who jumped up and down and pointed at her screaming, "look! An asian female in Star Wars!" Are the same people who respond to any criticism with the, "you just dont like strong female characters," or " you dont like asians," or both.

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Maybe I'm just not traveling in circles where one might see this sort of thing, but I honestly haven't seen a ton of that. Certainly not about Rose. I've seen people say she's a horrible character, the Jar Jar of the sequel films, blah blah blah, but I haven't seen anyone (1) criticize who the character is (e.g., Asian, female), nor (2) anyone saying that people criticizing the character are racist or sexist.

I don't see it as "forced" diversity either. It's just diversity, and I don't have a problem with diversity in casting. I don't think it has anything to do with whatever people's complaints are about the character, either. >shrug<

The toxicity was created by the people who responded to Rose superficially, and are angered that the people who see past her race and gender realise Rose is pretty pathetic.

So, forced diversity: You Must Love her because she is asian and female!

Boycotters: she hero worships Finn. Sees that he has his bags packed and is ready to leave, TAZES him. Yet, falls in love after an 18 hr date. Oh, she also sabotages Finns one chance to redeem himself...making the entire battering ram scene useless.

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Like I said, I don't see people saying you have to love her because she's Asian or female or both. I think people (1) liked the diversity, and (2) liked the character in general. I could debate the stuff about her role in the film, but I liked her overall.

As for the 18 hour date thing...Star Wars has always had an issue with the passage of time, and her falling in love with him isn't all that different from plenty of other movies where unrealistic or hyper-fast romances happen. It didn't really bother me. I can see where it'd bug someone else, and I don't think that makes 'em racist, but I also don't see this as "forced" diversity. It's just....you know...diversity.

Solo4114 said:

I don't count myself among the "nerds" that Mark was admonishing, even though I count myself as a nerd, geek, whatever. I know he's not talking to me. I know he's not talking to everyone who criticized the Rose character. But I also know he's talking to some seriously toxic ******** who need to learn boundaries or -- if they're incapable of that -- need to told to shut the hell up. Go ahead and criticize story choices, writing, or hell even then acting itself. But leave the actor alone on their social media and in their everyday life.

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Just to clarify, that was the point I was humorously trying to make above (my sense of humor needs work). As someone who didn't enjoy TLJ, I'm not the least bit offended by what Hamill or Johnson said. Could Hamill have picked a word more suitable than nerd? Probably, but we all know exactly the kind of heinous "nerds" he's referring to (just scroll through any SW YouTube comments section). I'm pretty confident he's not talking about the RPF.

She gained her notariety BASED on her race and gender. She is a poor character, therefore a poor representative of those aspects of her character.

So, her race and gender got her attention. Well, her character stinks, so she fell on her own hype sword.

JPH said:

She gained her notariety BASED on her race and gender. She is a poor character, therefore a poor representative of those aspects of her character.

So, her race and gender got her attention. Well, her character stinks, so she fell on her own hype sword.

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So by that logic, Arnold Schwarzenegger is a poor representative of white males based on some of the terrible roles he's had?

JPH said:

She gained her notariety BASED on her race and gender. She is a poor character, therefore a poor representative of those aspects of her character.

So, her race and gender got her attention. Well, her character stinks, so she fell on her own hype sword.

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Hang on, when exactly did the actress hype her ethnicity or gender?

BigDaddy,

When you try that hard to create a misleading argument, I will take that as a win.

JPH said:

BigDaddy,

When you try that hard to create a misleading argument, I will take that as a win.

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Didn't realize this was a contest with winners and losers, I was under the impression it was a conversation.

Bigdaddy said:

Didn't realize this was a contest with winners and losers, I was under the impression it was a conversation.

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This is *not* a conversation--like talking about what we each had for dinner last night. It's an internet debate on hotly contested issues, and of course there are perceived winners and losers. Just because trophies and ribbons aren't awarded, don't try to pretend there aren't winners and losers in the minds of those viewing or participating in the debates. lol

The Wook

The Wook said:

This is *not* a conversation--like talking about what we each had for dinner last night. It's an internet debate on hotly contested issues, and of course there are perceived winners and losers. Just because trophies and ribbons aren't awarded, don't try to pretend there aren't winners and losers in the minds of those viewing or participating in the debates. lol

The Wook

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LoL, if this is a debate do we just declare ourselves winners then?

Bigdaddy said:

LoL, if this is a debate do we just declare ourselves winners then?

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Well that's what I do.

JPH said:

She gained her notariety BASED on her race and gender. She is a poor character, therefore a poor representative of those aspects of her character.

So, her race and gender got her attention. Well, her character stinks, so she fell on her own hype sword.

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There seems to be a failure to distinguish between the actor and the character the actor is playing. There also seems to be a failure to distinguish between sources of hype/attention.

I ask this because I actually don't know the answer, but did Kelly Marie Tran hype up her casting -- especially as an Asian -- in the role and her performance of that role? Did Kelly Marie Tran hype up the character she played -- especially because the character is an Asian (well, space Asian, I guess) -- and hype up how wonderful the character is because she's Asian?


Or did other people do that? Like, fans, critics, the media in general, the LFL press team, etc.?

My guess -- and again, I don't know this for sure -- is that Kelly Marie Tran did not, herself, heavily promote the fact that Rose is Asian or that she is herself Asian in attempting to describe why the role is a good one, why her performance was good, etc.

So, I'm still gonna stand by the notion that harassing the actor online is completely over the mark, uncalled for, and generally reprehensible behavior.



I haven't seen anyone yet offer any reason why Kelly Marie Tran herself deserves any of this kind of garbage behavior. It sounds like most people who have an issue have one with the character and how the character was written and advertised. Ok. I still disagree with a lot of the disdain about the character, but hey, take it up with LFL then, or take it up with Rian Johnson. But going after the actor herself for the role she played? No. Not acceptable. It wouldn't be acceptable to hassle Jake Lloyd or Hayden Christensen for their acting. It's not acceptable to hassle Ahmed Best for his acting as Jar Jar. And it's not acceptable to hassle Kelly Marie Tran just because she played a character you disliked in a movie that disappointed you. (The general "you" here, not meaning you specifically, JPH.)

Solo4114,

"I have yet to see anyone offer any reason ..."

Um, I offered you reasons, you chose not to accept them.

Someone even mentioned her baiting fans.

She ate up the attention when it benefitted her. I never went to her account and attacked her, but I never heard of her distancing herself from the initial wave of hype, she cozied up to it until it backfired.

Live by the hype, die by the hype.

JPH said:

Solo4114,

"I have yet to see anyone offer any reason ..."

Um, I offered you reasons, you chose not to accept them.

Someone even mentioned her baiting fans.

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Really? Who? Because I looked through this thread since this story broke about 4-ish days ago, and didn't see any reference to that anywhere.

She ate up the attention when it benefitted her. I never went to her account and attacked her, but I never heard of her distancing herself from the initial wave of hype, she cozied up to it until it backfired.

Live by the hype, die by the hype.

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Oh? Did she? I'm sure she enjoyed having positive experiences with fans, like where she overheard folks at a pub talking about her and decided to chat them up. And I expect that she maintained a positive attitude through various interviews and press junkets. But from what I saw online, it sounds like she was pretty reluctant to get on social media at all, precisely because of the kind of bull**** that people directed at her.

Since she deleted her account, I can't see what specifically was written about her, but I've seen some other examples of the stuff people have posted online (e.g. editing the wookiepedia page to basically be racist crap; posting pictures of her compared to Grace Park and insinuating that she's fat, etc.). I also can't see where she "ate up the attention when it benefitted her."

It sounds to me like she was excited to be part of the Star Wars universe, and it sounds like a lot of folks interviewed her partially because she was the first woman of color to be cast as a lead in a Star Wars film. But let's accept for the moment that she did ride the positive reception of her, her ethnicity, and her character.

You're basically saying "She was asking for it." I mean, you get that, right? And you get how that sounds, right? She was asking for online harassment because she dared respond to reporters talking about what a big deal it is that she's the first woman of color to be cast in a lead role in a Star Wars movie.

She was asking for it?

Really? Is that really where you mean to go with this?

--EDIT--

I did a little more digging, trying to find info about what she posted on her social media accounts. This is, so far, the only example I've been able to find about her saying anything remotely relating to her ethnicity:

"It makes me happy to know that we made something that’s starting a dialogue," Tran wrote on Instagram. "Let’s tell more stories. Let’s have more conversations. Let’s get to know lives and worlds different from our own. And most of all, let’s open our hearts and accept our differences. More love, less hate."

Wow. What a b***h. She sure was asking for it, huh?

Solo4114 said:

You're basically saying "She was asking for it." I mean, you get that, right? And you get how that sounds, right? She was asking for online harassment because she dared respond to reporters talking about what a big deal it is that she's the first woman of color to be cast in a lead role in a Star Wars movie.

She was asking for it?

Really? Is that really where you mean to go with this?

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Whether she was baiting fans or not, the bottom line is this. When you become a celebrity, you have to take the bad with the good. You have to be prepared that not everyone's gonna like your performances, what you say off camera, or what you represent. It is a price that comes with fame. If you can't handle it, then step out of the limelight.

This crying over poor Rose is pathetic. She's in a ****ing Star Wars movie ! (Well, SWINO movie, but you get my point.) And not just in it, but a large part, with lots of dialogue! Something very few actors/actresses in Hollywood history can say, and something she can cherish the memories of forever! Ignore the negative crap spewed about you online, and wallow in your extraordinary success and blessed fortune!

If Rose was smart, she'd not let online jerks to get under her skin, by laughing off their insults on Jimmy Kimmel Live!'s, Celebrities Read Mean Tweets. If you're not familiar with the segment, here are a few examples:






The Wook

Kudos to those people for handling it that way, it doesn't change attacking people online is an ass-hat move. Racist attacks are particularly rediculous. Just to point out this isn't about poor Rose, she's a fictional character. This about Kelly Tran, an actual person. I don't know why it's so hard for some people to make that distinction.

Bigdaddy said:

Kudos to those people for handling it that way, it doesn't change attacking people online is an ass-hat move.

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No one can directly control what other people post on the internet. The only thing one can control is his/her reaction to those posts. And the point I'm making is, that if she were to laugh it off, perhaps in a segment like Kimmel's, it would indirectly minimize the amount of vitriol she receives going forward. You see, bullies feed off of hurt feelings. When you laugh in their faces, they move on to more vulnerable targets.

Laugh at them, Rose, or Kelly, or whatever your name is. (She, along with her performance, are completely forgettable to me--hence the name confusion, and indifference.)

The Wook

Solo4114 said:

You're basically saying "She was asking for it." I mean, you get that, right? And you get how that sounds, right? She was asking for online harassment because she dared respond to reporters talking about what a big deal it is that she's the first woman of color to be cast in a lead role in a Star Wars movie.

She was asking for it?

Really? Is that really where you mean to go with this?

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When you try that hard to create a misleading argument, I will take that as a win.

The Wook said:

No one can directly control what other people post on the internet. The only thing one can control is his/her reaction to those posts. And the point I'm making is, that if she were to laugh it off, perhaps in a segment like Kimmel's, it would indirectly minimize the amount of vitriol she receives going forward. You see, bullies feed off of hurt feelings. When you laugh in their faces, they move on to more vulnerable targets.

Laugh at them, Rose, or Kelly, or whatever your name is. (She, along with her performance, are completely forgettable to me--hence the name confusion, and indifference.)

The Wook

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I don't disagree with your tactics on handling bullies, none the less I don't see it as the bullied person's fault for handling it differently. Reacting doesn't ecxuse more vitriol.
My behavioral measure is "what would I say to my kid if she did that"
This doesn't pass the smell test.

Bigdaddy said:

I don't disagree with your tactics on handling bullies, none the less I don't see it as the bullied person's fault for handling it differently.

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Who's at fault is irrelevant, because haters exist, they always have existed, and they always will exist. Accept that, don't let them ruffle you, and you will find that they invariably move on, bored that they're not getting a hurt reaction.

It's really quite simple. It's like that Star Trek episode--I can't recall the name--when an invading energy being snuck onto the Enterprise, and was feeding off the hostility between Kirk and his men and Kang and his men. Once Kirk convinced Kang, with the help of Kang's woman, that all they had to do was stop feeding the hate entity with their fighting, they began laughing in its face, and telling it to leave. The cessation of conflict and blaming between the Federation crew and the Klingon crew, and the rousing good spirits the two crews shared in its place, caused the hate entity to promptly leave the Enterprise.

So, Rose should just do what Kirk did, laugh at the bullies, and say:

"Get off my social media."
"You're a dead duck here, you have no power, I know about you."
"And I don't want to play anymore. So ship out! Go on, haul it!"

The Wook

The Wook said:

Who's at fault is irrelevant, because haters exist, they always have existed, and they always will exist. Accept that, don't let them ruffle you, and you will find that they invariably move on, bored that they're not getting a hurt reaction.

It's really quite simple. It's like that Star Trek episode--I can't recall the name--when an invading energy being snuck onto the Enterprise, and was feeding off the hostility between Kirk and his men and Kang and his men. Once Kirk convinced Kang, with the help of Kang's woman, that all they had to do was stop feeding the hate entity with their fighting, they began laughing in its face, and telling it to leave. The cessation of conflict and blaming between the Federation crew and the Klingon crew, and the rousing good spirits the two crews shared in its place, caused the hate entity to promptly leave the Enterprise.

So, Rose should just do what Kirk did, laugh at the bullies, and say:

"Get off my social media."
"You're a dead duck here, you have no power, I know about you."
"And I don't want to play anymore. So ship out! Go on, haul it!"

The Wook

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Again, I don't disagree with your tactic, we just have a difference of opinion on what is acceptable behavior.