Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release)

What did you think of Star Wars: The Last Jedi?

  • It was great. Loved it. Don't miss it at the theaters.

    Votes: 154 26.6%
  • It was good. Liked it very much. Worth the theater visit.

    Votes: 135 23.4%
  • It was okay. Not too pleased with it. Could watch it at the cinema once or wait for home video.

    Votes: 117 20.2%
  • It was disappointing. Watch it on home video instead.

    Votes: 70 12.1%
  • It was bad. Don't waste your time with it.

    Votes: 102 17.6%

  • Total voters
    578
JJ put Luke on that island, yes or no?

JJ made his character a man who had given up because the Jedi had failed, yes or no?

These are the events of a film call the force awakens.
I used this example before but in a cooking contest show, MasterChef Australia there's a mystery box challenge where contestants get a box with random ingredients and other than a few staples (flour, cream, milk, eggs, vinegar) they can only use ingredients from the mystery box. The winner is the one who puts the best dish together from the secret ingredients. The best chef is the one who can adapt the setup to a good dish.
Not to mention it is on record that JJ wanted Rey to find Luke sitting a foot above the ground in meditation and levitating huge boulders and rocks. This was changed at Rian's request after he read the script.
 
Believe me I'm not trying to change anyone's mind.

JJ had Luke hiding on that island for... Years and Years (important) specifically because his attempts to train Jedi, had resulted in death and destruction and the end of the Jedi.
This is the Force Awakens yes? this is JJs film yes?

Rian Had him there simply doing the same thing for I think...just 2 more days?

If you problems with whiney luke started at TFA I totally get the anguish that you feel.
 
Believe me I'm not trying to change anyone's mind.

JJ had Luke hiding on that island for... Years and Years (important) specifically because his attempts to train Jedi, had resulted in death and destruction and the end of the Jedi.
This is the Force Awakens yes? this is JJs film yes?

Rian Had him there simply doing the same thing for I think...just 2 more days?

If you problems with whiney luke started at TFA I totally get the anguish that you feel.

Where was Luke established as whiny in TFA?
Here's the excerpt:

He was training a new generation of Jedi. One boy, an apprentice turned against him, destroyed it all. Luke felt responsible... He walked away from everything. [...] The people who knew him the best think he went looking for the first Jedi temple.

That was the framework. How it was realized, played off, what actual motivations Luke's character was given is all Rian Johnson's decision. It could have been developed into a myriad of directions from that basic setup.
 
TFA:- JJ put Luke on that island he was looking for the first Jedi temple and was powerful in the force.
TLJ:- RJ suppressed his abilities and made him a coward.

The change from TFA to TLJ was at RJ's request. It is documented.

It is not stated how long Luke was on the island. He went looking for it. It may have taken years to find. Either way, it is not known.
 
Believe me I'm not trying to change anyone's mind.

JJ had Luke hiding on that island for... Years and Years (important) specifically because his attempts to train Jedi, had resulted in death and destruction and the end of the Jedi.
This is the Force Awakens yes? this is JJs film yes?

Rian Had him there simply doing the same thing for I think...just 2 more days?

JJ had a completely different vision for Luke than Rian did. I timestamped the video below, relevant comment is at 20:44:


I mean, Luke is only wearing Jedi robes because TFA locked Rian into that. The very first thing Luke does is change into his potato sack hobo gear.
 
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Actually Lucas put Luke on an island. That's one of the only details we have from what Lucas intended to do in the movie. Luke would be on an island and train a female student. So far I think that's all we know.
 
Randy Marsh.jpg
 
Rewatched TLJ last night for the first time since the theater. I was able to pin down the exact moment it goes south for me. It really is the end of the first act.

You have the escape, the first battle, the rediscovery of Broken Luke, Rey’s tenacity, R2 show’s Luke the old message from Leia, and you reach the first point of the leads taking their first steps into the next phase of their arcs. Rey gets Luke’s attention and he agrees to train her, Kylo stands idle while Leia is blown up into space, Poe is passed over for promotion, and Finn decides he’s going to be true to himself.

Up until this point I think it’s a solid movie.

Then it gets stuck, like a bus trying to go over a tall hill it gets high-centered and makes no progress.

We now have each of those leads chasing their goal— Rey, to become a Jedi. Finn, to make a difference. Poe, to lead the resistance, Kylo to shed the last vestiges of the light. And, each have a roadblock: Rey has too much dark in her for Luke’s liking, Finn’s mission goes poorly, Poe is passed over by Holdo, and Kylo has too much light in him for Snoke’s liking.

In a well-written script, or say, any of the OT films, the second act should continually escalate these situations. For example, in ESB, Luke’s goal is become a Jedi, Han’s goal is to protect Leia, Leia’s goal is deny her feelings to be the strong leader she presents herself as, Vader’s goal is find Luke.

Goals in act two remain the same, but the difficulty to achieve them is continually increased with constant set-backs. ESB and TLJ are both fine in doing this, but the one big thing to these set-backs that sets a good movie apart from a bad one is that these seemingly simple set backs should trigger the key drama going in the leads, otherwise it feels like false or forced conflict.

In ESB, here’s the goal/conflict/character crisis relationships:

Luke wants to be a Jedi, Yoda is reticent to teach, and Luke fails the big tests. He has hang ups about his failures because he is being told about Vader at every turn, which feeds into the daddy issues he had in the first film. His hang ups overpower everything else, he abandons his training and runs to face Vader and gets his ass kicked.

Han wants to protect Leia, they are chased relentlessly by the Empire, and after he vouches for Lando, he ends up betrayed and tortured. Han’s over-confidence in doing things his own way, and shirking responsibility (he wants to leave his comission, doesn’t join the fleet, assumes Cloud City is safe, etc) and his free-wheeling ways put Leia in more danger than ever, and they are used to trap Luke.

Leia wants to be a fearless leader, but she is falling in love with Han, who she knows is a decent person despite acting like a tool. She tries to refuse him, she tries to take command of the situations they find themselves with little effect. Ironically, she’s right— she says the asteroid belt is a bad idea, she doesn’t trust Lando, she senses something is wrong before Vader appers, etc. Little by little she accepts her feelings, and loses Han when she finally says it out loud.

Vader’s goal is to find Luke. He’s going behind the Emperor’s back, ostensibly leading the hunt for the Alliance, while really only interested in getting his hands on Luke. He’s risking a lot, and while he doesn’t have many failures, he has roadblocks due to the incompetance of the Empire. By the end, once we realize he’s Luke’s father, we understand just how much his soul has been destroyed.

So again— the conflict is plot based, but triggers personal crises.

In TLJ the second act feels stalled to me because only half the characters get this proper treatment. Rey, Luke and Kylo have the emotional escalation— from Rey’s abandonment issues to Kylo’s inability to shed his emotions, their plot roadblocks hinge upon the personal drama.

Poe and Finn however— have zero of this. They try to put it in, but it’s hollow. Poe has to learn a lesson about being wreckless, but the only thing at risk is his own station. Han’s recklessness endangered Leia, which was the opposite of his goal. Finn co-opts Rose’s backstory since he doesn’t have one, which consists of her telling us about her childhood. Given that we JUST met her, and we’ve seen none of her life, this falls flat.

Add in the fact that Luke is decidedly non-Luke, and the great space-chase is stupid as hell, you end up with a second act where a lot of things happen, and yet nothing really happens.

Luke becomes the Luke we want in the third act— this should have happened at the mid-point. He’s broken Luke in act one, he agrees to teach Rey, but in his anti-teaching way into act two. At the midpoint, they should have left Ach-To to help Finn and Rose. Luke could then have the experience Rose has— seeing the down-trodden, etc. With Luke’s history, this would actually work. Then Luke steps up, but because he’s avoided being a hero for awhile, Rey leaves to see Kylo. Bringing him back to be hero PLUS for the third act.

It’s a suprisingly minor change that gets you to the same place, with a Luke that would feel right.

I still think it’s the most visually amazing of all SW films, and I actually appreciate the idea of not being precious of the past and I utterly detest fanboy crybabies assuming ownership and agency of Star Wars... but at the end of the day, Luke was just too far off the mark for too long, and a very boring second act, make for a movie I won’t be watching over and over the way I do ANH, ESB, and R1.
 
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This is one thing the movies are vague on, but per the ancillary material, he's only been there for maybe a couple years. Depending on how long it took him to find that planet after Ben trashed everything.

I think the earliest date of the temple being destroyed is 28 ABY, so it could have been between 5-6 years at most. I assume Luke found the island pretty fast since he's a known face in the galaxy and no one saw him around.
 
Actually Lucas put Luke on an island. That's one of the only details we have from what Lucas intended to do in the movie. Luke would be on an island and train a female student. So far I think that's all we know.

He was training a new generation of Jedi. One boy, an apprentice turned against him, destroyed it all. Luke felt responsible... He walked away from everything. [...] The people who knew him the best think he went looking for the first Jedi temple.

That was the framework. How it was realized, played off, what actual motivations Luke's character was given is all Rian Johnson's decision. It could have been developed into a myriad of directions from that basic setup.

Exactly. Remember that Mark Hamill said the original plan for him appearing at the end of TFA was to have floating boulders surrounding him to show the Force emanating from him:

From radiotimes.com: "However, as Johnson had planned for the jedi to have shut himself off from the force in the eighth instalment of the franchise, that ending was changed."

So Luke had been understandably distraught after the destruction unleashed by Kylo. He had gone in search of the first Jedi temple...to re-center himself? To emotionally re-group? To become stronger in the Force by way of some ancient knowledge so as to be able to defeat Kylo? In anticipation of the next "new hope" coming to him needing training, which he may have foreseen? All of these were possibilities leading into TLJ.

RJ chose the answer "to HIDE from the Force and everyone else and DIE." He did that. Not Lucas. Not JJ. KK and the story group effectively said "Sounds great to us! The new hero's Rey anyway."

Some say that TLJ made only 600+ million to date vs. the 900+ million to date of TFA because TFA marked the return of Star Wars after 30+ years. Whatever. TLJ marked the return of Luke, and I and many others would have gone for repeat viewings of TLJ if the story was better and Luke's character had been better handled. RJ's artistic license with Luke's character, plus the other nonsensical story elements (which I won't re-hash here) are behind MUCH of that box office revenue difference.
 
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Thanks Bryan

But listening to the main criticism of the film, as far as you see it,....what do you think is great about the film,....why do you think people are divided?

What do you think of those who are unhappy?

I asked Solo4114 a while ago something similar,..I really would like to know what you think of the issues that people find with the movie

J

Jaitea, did I ever respond to you on these points? I can't remember now. If I didn't, please know it wasn't intentional. I'm happy to answer these questions, too (if I haven't already).

Goals in act two remain the same, but the difficulty to achieve them is continually increased with constant set-backs. ESB and TLJ are both fine in doing this, but the one big thing to these set-backs that sets a good movie apart from a bad one is that these seemingly simple set backs should trigger the key drama going in the leads, otherwise it feels like false or forced conflict.

I absolutely agree here. I also agree with your assessment of ESB and how the plot elements/complications have personal impact on the characters, and often are themselves directly driven by the characters' underlying flaws, which they must then overcome (either in that moment, or later).

In TLJ the second act feels stalled to me because only half the characters get this proper treatment. Rey, Luke and Kylo have the emotional escalation— from Rey’s abandonment issues to Kylo’s inability to shed his emotions, their plot roadblocks hinge upon the personal drama.

Again, agreed.

Poe and Finn however— have zero of this. They try to put it in, but it’s hollow. Poe has to learn a lesson about being wreckless, but the only thing at risk is his own station. Han’s recklessness endangered Leia, which was the opposite of his goal. Finn co-opts Rose’s backstory since he doesn’t have one, which consists of her telling us about her childhood. Given that we JUST met her, and we’ve seen none of her life, this falls flat.

On these points, though, I disagree. I think the film does a decent job of conveying how their personal choices/failures have a greater impact, and arguably one that is directly at odds with their underlying goals. But for that, I think you need to also evaluate what those underlying goals are.

You characterized Poe as having a goal of "leading the Resistance," and Finn as "making a difference." I would actually argue that Poe's goal is not leading the Resistance, but saving it and securing victories for it. Finn's goals are a bit less clear, but center more on finding Rey and helping her.

Poe's goals are laid out early in the movie with the bomber attack and how Poe disobeys orders and gets busted down to Captain from Commander (I think -- he gets demoted, either way). Leia is the one who wants to groom him for command. Poe, meanwhile, is thinking entirely small-picture and about having struck a blow for the Resistance. Tactical, rather than strategic. When the Raddus is tracked by the FO and Leia is incapacitated, we start to see more of his overall concern for the Resistance (almost as if he's taken Leia's advice to heart, but learned the wrong lesson). The problem is that he can only see what's directly in front of him, instead of seeing the bigger picture, and because he is insubordinate, and Holdo is kind of a crappy leader who can't manage him, he botches her plan.

With Finn, his goal is to find and help Rey, and prevent her from returning to the doomed fleet, and he's willing to abandon the Resistance to do it. This eventually shifts to helping Poe disable the hyperspace tracking on the Supremacy, which is how Finn and Rose end up on Canto Bight (looking for the "Master Codebreaker"), and find DJ, who betrays them. Apparently, either DJ overhears their plan or they tell him the plan, which he then tells the First Order.

So, Poe's goal while on board the Raddus is to preserve the Resistance, and he sees Holdo as not doing that. This is why he supports Finn's mission, and this is why he mutinies against Holdo. However, his (and Finn's) support of this plan lead's directly to the First Order being able to spot the fleeing transports, and shooting them down as well as tracking the Resistance to Crait (when previously, the plan was that they'd slip away unnoticed, and then hide out on Crait until the FO left after it would have undoubtedly blown the Raddus up). We watch (as I recall) Poe's horror as the transports start getting blown up, and although he doesn't say "It's all my fault," you get the sense that he knows it.

With Finn, as I said, it's a bit less clear. Finn's goals are still focused around Rey, then shift to his desire to hurt the First Order. I actually think his character is handled the worst in all of this, if only because his goals are never 100% clear. It's therefore harder to frustrate his goals in a way that kind of hoists him on a petard of his own personal foibles, the way Poe's recklessness clearly ends up blowing up in his face and frustrating his desire to save/protect the Resistance. Part of that is because Finn's method for achieving his goal (to wit: protect Rey from returning to this disaster) ends up overlapping with Poe's method of trying to save the Resistance, instead of keeping things distinct.

You could argue that a lot of this ends up motivated by Finn's infatuation with Rey, but the film never really plays that up enough to sell it effectively. Except for one moment in TFA where Finn asks if Rey has a boyfriend, we just kinda get the sense that they're really good friends and that's it. This, too, could've served the story better if you had a kind of love triangle between Rey, Finn, and Rose, and where Finn's desperate desire to protect Rey end up getting Rose hurt/killed just as he's starting to realize his feelings for her. That, I think, would've tied up the moment on Crait where Rose (almost) sacrifices herself to save Finn, they kiss, and she passes out. But, to do that, they would've had to make Finn's motivations a lot clearer, and really underline his infatuation with Rey a lot more than they did. Instead, they kind of split Finn's focus between hurting the First Order and helping Rey, but neither ends up hammered home clearly enough. I actually wonder how much of this is a result of editing decisions or timing/pacing issues. Like, with enough time, they could've had both things being Finn's goals. Hell, his infatuation with Rey could've even been partially driven by seeing her as a vehicle for his revenge against the FO or something.

I think what they wound up doing with Finn is gradually shifting his focus from Rey to the Resistance as a whole, but it plays kind of confusingly on screen, and gets muddled by the Rose romance, and they don't really spend enough time building the groundwork for his shifts in focus.

Add in the fact that Luke is decidedly non-Luke, and the great space-chase is stupid as hell, you end up with a second act where a lot of things happen, and yet nothing really happens.

I find the 2nd act to be much more about Rey than anything else. Not a lot happens plot-wise, but Rey's development catapults in the 2nd act (the 3rd act being her departure from Ach-To).

Luke becomes the Luke we want in the third act— this should have happened at the mid-point. He’s broken Luke in act one, he agrees to teach Rey, but in his anti-teaching way into act two. At the midpoint, they should have left Ach-To to help Finn and Rose. Luke could then have the experience Rose has— seeing the down-trodden, etc. With Luke’s history, this would actually work. Then Luke steps up, but because he’s avoided being a hero for awhile, Rey leaves to see Kylo. Bringing him back to be hero PLUS for the third act.

It’s a suprisingly minor change that gets you to the same place, with a Luke that would feel right.

In broad strokes? Yeah, I think Luke leaving with Rey would've worked, but you end up with logistical problems. Rey doesn't know where she's going other than to find the Supremacy and confront Kylo. I think she ends up on Crait because she senses something with the Force. But how would Luke end up on Crait, since he's cut himself off from the Force, and isn't in a place of extremely powerful Force energy like Ach To?

You could have Rey end up at Canto Bight, and then have Luke go help Finn and Rose and DJ try to bust up the hyperspace tracker...but why would Rey have gone to Canto Bight, when it makes more sense to have her go directly to Kylo Ren? You could maybe shift Rey's third vision with Ren and the whole "What happened with the school?" thing to have it happen while they're on DJ's ship headed to the Supremacy...but then she's already going to the Supremacy.

The other thing is that Rey's decision is ultimately her own. That's part of what makes it meaningful, and it's central to her character arc. When Rey first shows up, she's imploring the Great Jedi Hero Luke to come save everyone. By the time she leaves, she's convinced he's just a broken old man, and that it falls to her to save people, which she tries to do by turning Ben back to the light. She's no longer looking outside herself for what she needs; she's looking to herself. From "Who will save us?" to "We will save ourselves." If Luke goes with her, it undercuts all of that, I think.

Instead, I think the film could've taken maybe one more moment with Luke -- following the Yoda/tree-burning sequence -- to have him start to tap in to the Force again and follow Rey or sense Leia's peril or both. And that would be what finally prompts him to action and the Force Projection thing (which, as a Force power, I have no problem with).
 
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Poe's goals are laid out early in the movie with the bomber attack and how Poe disobeys orders and gets busted down to Captain from Commander (I think -- he gets demoted, either way). Leia is the one who wants to groom him for command. Poe, meanwhile, is thinking entirely small-picture and about having struck a blow for the Resistance. Tactical, rather than strategic. When the Raddus is tracked by the FO and Leia is incapacitated, we start to see more of his overall concern for the Resistance (almost as if he's taken Leia's advice to heart, but learned the wrong lesson). The problem is that he can only see what's directly in front of him, instead of seeing the bigger picture, and because he is insubordinate, and Holdo is kind of a crappy leader who can't manage him, he botches her plan.
I was ablr to parse what you were saying, but FTFY. ;)
 
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