Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release)

You know something has only just occurred to me.

Maybe you Just can't do better than Star Wars and Empire.

Films seem to divide everyone now because we have literally seen it all.

Brent M said:

Wow, I guess Mark Hamill is trying to cheer up Rian Johnson after he's been reading all of those fan reactions for the last 3 days. :lol

Seriously, though, in every interview I've seen with him Johnson genuinely seems like one of the nicest guys walking the face of the Earth so I do feel bad for him if he's in fact been reading/hearing all of the backlash, but at the same time I have to say it's all deserved because he made some truly baffling(and terrible) choices with this movie.

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Every time he hears a good or bad review from someone who just saw it, he thinks to himself.. CHI CHING!!..., just made another dollar :cheers

Hell.... I would think that

Fawbish said:

Which is completely valid way of enjoying film - except that there are very, very, very few stories in any medium that don't follow an internal logic. Escapism should not directly translate to "it should just be this way just because" - IMO.

I also wasn't equating realism/realistic stories with internal logic.

You're being told a story, right? So if something happens, that is what happened. It isn't what could have, or should, or maybe would - it is (unless the film is then showing you/telling you there is an unreliable narrator/offering ambiguity etc.

I had visions, even watching the film, of how unbelievably epic it would have been for us to have heard a single screaming of an X-Wing fighter just as all hope is lost, and Luke arrives to kick some ass. And yet, what we got was just as good as what I'd imagined because that is what happened in the film, and I judged it on that basis - not what it could have been. You can make adjustments to your own expectations and experiences all the time, which people seem to forget. Having Luke's final redemption for losing his faith be an unprecedented (not plot hole) and thoroughly powerful use of the force following the last lesson of his master was excellent storytelling, I think. Making the decision to have him emotionally fight rather than physically made a lot of sense. Things that would not make sense if we simply ignored the progression of character and stuck to "what is known".

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You are absolutely right. But IMO you are swinging way too far to one side on that scale of potential character development. IMO the heroes journey is what it is in a story. I am pretty sure that it developed because of people´s wishes and longings for something like a heroes journey to happen, it is why people listened to heroic stories since the dawn of time. I think no character development can be greater than the transition from farm boy to hero.

That is what made the OT. That is what we all or at least most of us had hoped for. That is why we rooted for OUR heroes. They succeeded in doing superhuman tasks.

They are super human. The escapism worked because of that. THAT is what fuelled OUR childhood imagination.

And NOW those heroes are deconstructed, brought down. Do we really need that?

I like all those old Westerns where a lady or a girl or a group of people went to that old drunkard who once was an honorable man and gunfighter, to seek help and be saved.
In those stories we do not see why and how the demise happened. But we see a light reignited that for a long time was dim or dark, and maybe in the end the fallen hero redeems himself by making the biggest sacrifice of them all, giving his life for others.

The same happens in TLJ, doesn´t it?

But the problem that I have is that we KNEW Luke and LOVED him. He was the HERO. And now he is a broken hermit on a remote island?! And a COWARD to boot?! Actually (atm in my emotional state) for me NOT acceptable!!! I do NOT need this!!!
Yes, he gets a grip of himself, but then he´s gone after a deed that ends in his sacrifice. Okay, I can live with that, but DAMMIT why did that have to happen in the MIDDLE of the trilogy?! And even if he saved the last handful of rebels, it seemed so damn wasted, so NOT heroic. So BADLY written because it IMO was messing with the audience.

The same actually goes for HAN!!! Eff it, Han is a BAD FATHER and HUSBAND???!!! He was part of my childhood, and I must admit that the star wars characters had a huge influence on me growing up, certainly a positive influence, just as superheroes had.
And we had to see him fail and fall, too?! That is REALLY a drama that nixed all those efforts and sacrifices they had made. If they go out, let them go out like heroes and not like punks. Have them lead a life that is unquestionable. You IMO cannot be superheroic without a certain way of looking at all things in life from a point of view that MAKES you the hero you are.

The only one remaining and standing true to her former personality seems to be LEIA. They guys fail, the gal keeps on truckin´. She was the one who held everything together, she was always the leader of the pack, with the guys circling around her. She always had the will to push onward, but the guys errr boys(?) always ran away?! Now that I think of that, at least.

Escapism. A flight into a reality that helps us to not think about our busy lives and what we have to cope with every day. To flee from our own reality, if only for a few hours. A "realistic character development" can be seen as too much reality being brought into that fantasy, pulling obviously a lot of us out of the movie.

Mr Webber said:

And when they are old enough to realise the difference between what is a great film and what is a corporate money grab, they will drop it like a hot potatoe

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I assure you that people did not find Star Wars to be a work of fine art in 1977, sheesh. Other than Empire (which was controversial), they're all kinda...crap. ANH was a frothy fairy tale pastiche. ROTJ was a lame reboot with another DS and teddy bears. The prequels are unwatchable, Disney is making sugary, easily digested entertainment again, just like the OT frankly was.

This isn't a criticism. I love SW. I breathe it, I eat it. But they aren't "good movies" and never have been.

cayman shen said:

This isn't a criticism. I love SW. I breathe it, I eat it. But they aren't "good movies" and never have been.

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I have to agree.. BUT.. it was not the actual "sit down and watch" movie that people fell in love with.. It was the story.. and the fact that a world/ universe beyond ours, could be created and we wanted to live there..

We wanted (and some of us still do want, in our kid self) to have the Force..

ImperialShuttle said:

I haven’t seen much talk about the art direction in this movie. If there was one aspect of the Disney movies I thought I could count on, it was that they were safely back in the hands of people who knew how to recreate the look and feel of the OT. TFA, and Rogue One especially, made me feel comfortable in ways the Lucas prequels didn’t. What happened? Snokes red room looked like a green screen set with a red wall. The movie was littered with sets and scenes like that. And the casino planet was completely outside the Star Wars universe. I didn’t even think the lightsabers looked very good. The attention to detail just wasn’t there.

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Yes. The texture was missing. I noticed one attempt at going OT props style, when POE picked up a Binoc and it looked like a vintage camera juuuust ... (drumroll!!!) ... turned sideways. I think I even noticed that lens/depth/shutterspeed table that the old cameras had.

DarthLee said:

I have to agree.. BUT.. it was not the actual "sit down and watch" movie that people fell in love with.. It was the story.. and the fact that a world beyond ours, could be created and we wanted to live there..

We wanted (and some of us still do want, in our kid self) to have the Force..

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I still do. I thought TLJ was magic. I'm 42 and I almost bawled when broom boy lifted the handle up like a sword. I got goosebumps when Luke snarled "I will not be the last jedi!" I cheered when Kylo and Rey squared off against space samurai.

It was still pure escapism for me. (Except maybe friggin Laura Dern emasculating Poe. Ok, it was 99% pure escapism for me!)

I can't wait to see this again.

:lol ...and no spoon full of sugar will make THAT medicine go down! :lol

Jedi-72 said:

Episode 9 Title Leak..."Carrie Poppins".

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In the theater, it was just me and SW (of course others came with me..but who cares)......no boss..no bills..no traffic..no drama..no worries..for 2.5 hours..good or bad movie.. I'm my own worst critic.. but I sat and watched and saw things that made mad and say "wow" and say "how".. but in those 2.5 hours, I saw some lightsabers and force powers... so I was ok.

I walked out.. glad I went.. and holding tightly (like a 10 year old), my Chewbacca "popcorn head" memorabilia, that I ate popcorn out of.

SO..go ahead Disney.... or whoever.... make another one... I dare you... I'll watch it.

Just dont make it a cartoon...:lol

DarthLee said:

Just dont make it a cartoon...:lol

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I've never seen, and never plan on watching, that "Clone Wars" movie that came out before the series (I also haven't watched the series, in spite of people saying it's enjoyable).
Star Wars is live action films only for me - and maybe an occasional video game.

I don't understand how the Clone Wars movie can be so lame and the series got SOOOO good. Rocky start there for sure.

cayman shen said:

I assure you that people did not find Star Wars to be a work of fine art in 1977, sheesh. Other than Empire (which was controversial), they're all kinda...crap. ANH was a frothy fairy tale pastiche. ROTJ was a lame reboot with another DS and teddy bears. The prequels are unwatchable, Disney is making sugary, easily digested entertainment again, just like the OT frankly was.

This isn't a criticism. I love SW. I breathe it, I eat it. But they aren't "good movies" and never have been.

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Amen Brother Amen!

cayman shen said:

I don't understand how the Clone Wars movie can be so lame and the series got SOOOO good. Rocky start there for sure.

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Because AOTC wasnt.. we learned how the clones were made... we learned that the Jedi library can be manipulated. And the best intro scene (other than Vadar OT) for any character was Yoda walking in the cave when count Dooku was defeating Anakin and Obiwan..we now knew that Palpatine was Sidious. And a ton of Easter eggs... Jango Fett (which led to the Mandalorian story).. Mace with purple lightsaber..I can go on..

A good set up for the fall of the Jedi

Im not quite sure how most people put AOTC at the bottom

DarthLee said:

Because AOTC wasnt.. we learned how the clones were made... we learned that the Jedi library can be manipulated. And the best intro scene (other than Vadar OT) for any character was Yoda walking in the cave when count Dooku was defeating Anakin and Obiwan..we now knew that Palpatine was Sidious. And a ton of Easter eggs... Jango Fett (which led to the Mandalorian story).. Mace with purple lightsaber..I can go on..

A good set up for the fall of the Jedi

Im not quite sure how most people put AOTC at the bottom

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Reread my post, wasn't talking about AOTC.

cayman shen said:

Reread my post, wasn't talking about AOTC.

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My apologies.. I thought you meant, AOTC.. live movie compared to cartoon

Because the cartoon series .. got better reviews than AOTC

Rian talks Snoke:

http://collider.com/the-last-jedi-snoke-explained/

jcroscigno said:

Leia Poppins was probably the low point - but I would have been less happy if that was her exit from the series.

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I’ve seen so many comments about the “flying” bit, with some people – not necessarily you – thinking that this is the creation of a new Jedi power to fly through space. That’s just wrong. I thought it was very obvious – and Jonah/Inquisitor Peregrinus got this right in this thread or in another – she is pulling, just like Luke did with the lightsaber in the Wampa cave. The difference is that she is piulling on an object of immeasurably greater mass, namely the ship, while she is floating in a medium in which her own body has no weight. Therefore, when she pulls on that object, she is pulled to it, rather than it being pulled towards her.

Here is an analogy. You are in a swimming pool. Reach out and grab that pool noodle, and you can pull it toward you. Now reach out and grab the side of the pool and try to pull that toward you. See which one of you moves.

I myself have very mixed emotions about certain aspects of this film – but Carrie *flying* and all of the Mary Poppins references isn’t one of them.

M

I have seen this movie twice in one day beginning Thursday night. I have since then been in turmoil about how I feel about it and what I feel about.

I have now come to a very comfortable place for myself in all of it.

I will happily now acknowledge the official end of Luke Leia Han and all my Star Wars Heroes as the last scene in ROTJ. I will accept 7 & 8 as given to me by Disney as an alternate reality of what could have happened but did not dream sequence.
I will fill in the future of my Star Wars heroes with my imagination just a I did when I was a kid. It was so much fun and satisfying that way.

I am very happy and at peace with it all now. I hope other true fans here find the same peace in their own way.

The exception being if George Lucas gives his version of where our heroes went from ROTJ I would reconsider it then.

I have dismissed Disneys versions now as they are theirs alone given to supposed hip or current popular directors that did not have our heart in this series as something they should be careful with. Rather rehash or destroy at all costs just to make a buck.

George's episodes and vision are cannon to me ( however many times he edited it, it came from the same place and heart ) not this Disney Drivel. Amen.

One side note for Disney I did Love Rogue One but cannot give them much credit as the story for that came from an Lucas employee.

That is my valid opinion. Enjoy reading all of your I do.

mkstewartesq said:

I’ve seen so many comments about the “flying” bit, with some people – not necessarily you – thinking that this is the creation of a new Jedi power to fly through space. That’s just wrong. I thought it was very obvious – and Jonah/Inquisior Perigrinus got this right in this thread or in another – she is pulling​, just like Luke did with the lightsaber in the Wampa cave.

M

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That's a great observation - I just borrowed the term I saw others use to note the scene - but the problem for me was more that other than a general sensitivity to life-forces, Leia was never shown as a force-user; and unfortunately in this trilogy we've gotten no sense of where Leia progressed (if at all) with force-training. So it came as unexpected and a less believable.

This may have been posted, but was there a tactical reason or explanation for Holdo not telling Poe her plan?