PantheraGem
Sr Member
We all know they wanted him out of the way for IX. If he comes back, it's only because Disney didn't get the reaction they were hoping for. By striking him down, he become more powerful, will always be with them, yada yada.
Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release)
- Thread starter dbuck
- Start date
”We? That’s pretty broad and inclusive. As to bringing Luke back as a Force Ghost,it may have been part of Trevorrow’s script or a concept brought in by JJ. Either way I think it is a very attractive story element I think has always been front of mind for Lucasfilm and would be holistically part of the story and not based on any fan reactions to Luke. Certainly TLJ wasn’t developed based on fan reaction to TFA as it was written before that films release. All the Star Wars podcasts I listen too have moved on from discussing Luke in TLJ and speculating on his potential participation in IX, so there are many different conversations happening in fandom.
joshvanrad
Sr Member
Luke should have shut down the new characters. It would have been a final gear at the end of the movie. It would have majorly set the anticipation to max for the next movie. I have less of a problem with Luke not showing up in TFA, and more of a problem with how he's used in TLJ, though. I would have been fine with him being AWOL for TFA if they would have utilized him more effectively in TLJ.
Also, Rey has not earned anything. In fact, none of the new characters have. The only one that came close was Finn... and they even managed to butcher that.
Also, Rey has not earned anything. In fact, none of the new characters have. The only one that came close was Finn... and they even managed to butcher that.
sztriki
Sr Member
I don't disagree with anything above. I'm only saying that I think TFA managed to pull Luke's abscence off properly and TLJ failed to follow it up properly. And I'm in 100% agreement with you regarding the Crait sequence. I didn't want to see Luke flipping around and hacking with the lightsaber prequels-style, but the projection trickery didn't cut it for me either (mostly because it was obvious from the moment he appeared on screen looking like he just came from the hair saloon).
Yes, but at the end of the day it's still discussion about a past character. How many discussions were running about the new characters after TFA? Countless, wild, one more annoying than the other fan-theory came after the other about their backgrounds and where they will be heading now. That proportion is now changed.
:cheers
PantheraGem
Sr Member
Thanks for pointing out, that indeed, Luke is still the focus.
Solo4114
Master Member
Are we really gonna rehash the whole "Rey hasn't earned anything" line again?
Luke didn't earn anything either. Neither did Anakin. None of these focal characters "earn" their power. Let's move on.
joshvanrad
Sr Member
As a lawyer you should know you shouldn't ask a question and then try to close the argument.
Or maybe that is a savvy lawyer technique.
Or maybe that is a savvy lawyer technique.
sztriki
Sr Member
To be fair Luke did one trick in ANH that was the magic from nowhere by doing the one-in-a-million shot. In Empire there was a lot of internal struggle, we saw his doubts, his questions during his training, we saw him making mistakes, in Jedi we saw him tempted by the dark side...there were quite a few challenges for him. Anakin...I dunno, admittedly I hold the prequels in low regard, I kinda want to say that Anakin not earning anything was the exact thing that led to his downfall but that's probably wishful thinking on my behalf with regards to the writing of the movies. Not in the mood of revisiting either of those so I'll go with what you say.
Not knowing who you are is not compelling enough of a conflict for a character for it to be interesting to watch on screen. I don't entirely know who I am as a person and my place in the world but no one would watch a film about my life. Not that anyone in their right mind should, lol.
Failures, flaws, temptations, conflict (both internal and external) are things that Luke went through and we as the audience witnessed those things happen to him, thus we could relate to him. I don't see much evidence that Rey has faced any of those kinds of things specifically. Perhaps the term "earning" is not the word we should be using. Though I know we all can agree to disagree on this subject because it's clear that we are at an impasse when it comes down to it.
A link was posted earlier that also raises a valid criticism. They discussed how this film pokes fun of the very things that distinguish it from other franchises and then by the end of the movie expects the audience to still buy into those same elements as if we are still supposed to care, despite having just been parodied throughout the entire movie.
It's hard to take it seriously when it doesn't even take itself seriously.
Failures, flaws, temptations, conflict (both internal and external) are things that Luke went through and we as the audience witnessed those things happen to him, thus we could relate to him. I don't see much evidence that Rey has faced any of those kinds of things specifically. Perhaps the term "earning" is not the word we should be using. Though I know we all can agree to disagree on this subject because it's clear that we are at an impasse when it comes down to it.
A link was posted earlier that also raises a valid criticism. They discussed how this film pokes fun of the very things that distinguish it from other franchises and then by the end of the movie expects the audience to still buy into those same elements as if we are still supposed to care, despite having just been parodied throughout the entire movie.
It's hard to take it seriously when it doesn't even take itself seriously.
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Jaitea
Master Member
If there were cracks in TFA,....TLJ has opened those cracks & the ST has fallen in rubble.....some like that fact,...but the majority are dismayed
Right now I have written off the ST....just like the PT.....I'm not interested or invested in any of the new characters.....they are not Star Wars
J
Right now I have written off the ST....just like the PT.....I'm not interested or invested in any of the new characters.....they are not Star Wars
J
“The majority”....
We see Rey levitating 30-40 huge boulders without so much as a furrowed brow. After knowing about the Force for a week.
Luke struggled to pull his lightsaber out of a snowbank four feet away, after 3 years of practice.
Axlotl
Master Member
Jaitea
Master Member
Yes, I honestly don't know anyone,...not a single person I've talked to, who enjoyed the film,...then on social media.....none of the people that I am friendly with liked it....on this thread, theres really only 3 people who defend it
The poll at the header of the thread is split almost 50-50....(with a tiniest majority of not pleased),....but I'd wager that if a new poll was taken now, after the dust has settled, the majority who are annoyed would be larger
J
Solo4114
Master Member
We also saw him block blaster fire after a couple hours training with Ben. And later he makes an almost impossible shot by using the Force.
Later, he trains with Yoda for about a week maybe (we aren't sure, really) and then duels vader with profound lightsaber proficiency, although he loses in the end. And then in ROTJ, he effortlessly calls his sabre to him -- one he apparently knew how to build without any training -- slices up Jabba's skiff guards, blocks more blaster fire on Endor, slices a moving speederbike in half, duels vader again and beats him. All with no additional training.
Anakin, at 9 years old, can drive a podracer, which humans apparently can't do at all, and somehow manages to fly a naboo N-1 fighter having literally never gotten in one before, survives a dogfight, and manages to singlehandedly destroy the droid control ship by basically button mashing.
They all have "unearned power" with basically no training. That's the point. That's what makes them extraordinary.
All this bitching about "earning" power is absurd when the entire point is that these characters are meant to be extraordinary and able to do stuff normal people -- even normal force users -- can't. They're all supposed to be incredibly strong in the Force WITHOUT training.
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Having Rey not know who she is and not know her place in the galaxy isn't compelling enough of an arc without some sort of internal conflict that can be illustrated clearly on screen. It's part of what makes real life so frustrating when you can't articulate into words why you may be struggling with your identity, so how is it interesting when you have a character who is going through the same thing but has absolutely no doubts, fears, hopes, for this incredible power she is able to tap into? She doesn't seem to be tempted to tap into the darkness so there is no conflict there. She may be aware of it, but she's not tempted to use it so it's not the same thing. If the stakes aren't raised on a personal level and we aren't worried that she might not live or be able to save the day then how can we root for her? Plus Yoda tells Luke that she already knows everything she needs to know so there honestly isn't anything Luke or the Jedi Books can really teach her. So there is no conflict there either because there is no teaching that may result in her struggle to learn about her powers or lessons that may conflict with a belief she has. She already knows everything and has mastered the Force without any effort or struggle of ANY kind.
Rey has no connection to any of the characters that are involved in this galactic conflict and she has no reason to stay, in fact all she wants to do is go back to Jakku and wait for her family. She has no reason at all to even be involved with the Resistance other than the script dictates that she needs to be there because she is the lead character. She could have easily delivered BB-8 to the Resistance and left for home. While I know that one could argue that the Force was awakened in her, then how or why doesn't that seem to answer the question of why her? Without SOME answers we as an audience struggle to care about her and what is happening on screen.
So if she doesn't know who she is, she doesn't have any interesting family history, she doesn't seem to have any weakness, she can pilot any ship she needs to, she can speak multiple languages, she can defend herself against more than one opponent, and she is able to use the Force without any effort or temptation to use it for evil, then HOW is she compelling as a character? Surely they could have used any of those pieces to give her some sort of interesting conflict that she could overcome?
There is no struggle for her to overcome other than she doesn't know who she is. That in and of itself is NOT compelling. There has to be some sort of flaw or temptation or element to her character or the story that will put her at risk because without that danger she is simply invincible and characters like that can be pretty boring and hard to relate to.
I think the point is that Luke was taught by others who knew how to use the Force and he had some inclination towards it because his father was a Jedi. Even then we witnessed him learn and sometimes even struggle with his abilities. We saw him bullied and attacked and other people had to come to his rescue at times. He wasn't always capable of holding his own in every scenario. We saw him tempted to give in to his anger and impatience to the point were we worried that he could fall prey to the Dark Side. We as the audience could sense that he was in danger. Vader was far stronger than Luke and we knew that he could turn or be killed by Vader. We watched his powers and confidence grow over the course of the three original films and eventually he was able to face Vader on his own and prove both his teachers wrong by redeeming his father rather than killing him. Luke was strong in the Force but he wasn't without flaws or conflict.
Plus Luke never hesitated to enlist his friends help when necessary. Leia, Han and Luke did things together! That could have been an interesting character arc for Rey. Perhaps she could have continually got herself in over her head, despite how capable she was after fending for herself for all those years alone, and she needed to learn to rely on her newly made friends to help her out. It would have given her and the new characters more screen time together and given each of them a purpose by illustrating this idea during the messes they get into. Plus it would have given Poe, Finn, and others a chance to shine by showing off their strengths and weaknesses as well. But Rey is good at everything and if we question it we are sexist and can't handle strong female characters. Leia is and always will be a BAD ASS above ANY female Star Wars character and she was there from the very beginning. She was a better shot than both Han and Luke and she was the leader of the Rebellion and more importantly she was Carrie Fisher. Rey is nothing compared to Leia.
Kylo and Rey are evenly matched in their abilities so we never get the sense that she is ever in harms way. She never even gets injured. I am fine with the fact that she can hold her own in some cases. I mean she lived alone for all of those years fending for herself, but is it really necessary for her to be good at everything without effort? It insults the intelligence of the audience if they give no explanation of how she gained at least SOME of these abilities?
Things that I believe about Rey given what we know about her in TFA:
-She is mechanically inclined so would have some idea how to fix things
-She is tough enough to defend herself because she does live alone on a harsh desert planet
-She can speak multiple languages because she interacts with lots of species of aliens on her world and at the junkyard
-She does the right thing by not selling BB-8 and generally looking out for him so she does have at least a conscience that she listens to
Things I don't necessarily buy:
-She is capable of flying any ship
-She would know how to use the Jedi mind trick
-She would be able to resist Kylo Ren's mind probe
-She is capable of using a lightsaber against a trained Dark Side user without so much as a scratch and besting him. Injured or not Kylo was holding his own until the very end of the fight.
-Chewie would let Rey pilot the Falcon after Han died.
-Leia trusts that Rey would be able to convince Luke to return to the fight even though Luke will have no idea who Rey is.
-Despite hearing about the Force and learning about her ability with this power, she is not tempted to use it for her own purposes after having lived a harsh life and only having to look out for her own survival.
The one example I can think of that actually shows SOME conflict in Rey is when she is tempted by Unkarr Plutt's offer of rations if she sells him BB-8. She considers it but after looking at him and realizing how helpless he is, she pities him and tells Plutt that the droid isn't for sale.
Had there been more moments like that for Rey where she is tested to do the right thing, or be challenged in ways that would force her to grow as a character, or overcome some flaw or temptation then I know fans would have been more on board with her.
Rey has no connection to any of the characters that are involved in this galactic conflict and she has no reason to stay, in fact all she wants to do is go back to Jakku and wait for her family. She has no reason at all to even be involved with the Resistance other than the script dictates that she needs to be there because she is the lead character. She could have easily delivered BB-8 to the Resistance and left for home. While I know that one could argue that the Force was awakened in her, then how or why doesn't that seem to answer the question of why her? Without SOME answers we as an audience struggle to care about her and what is happening on screen.
So if she doesn't know who she is, she doesn't have any interesting family history, she doesn't seem to have any weakness, she can pilot any ship she needs to, she can speak multiple languages, she can defend herself against more than one opponent, and she is able to use the Force without any effort or temptation to use it for evil, then HOW is she compelling as a character? Surely they could have used any of those pieces to give her some sort of interesting conflict that she could overcome?
There is no struggle for her to overcome other than she doesn't know who she is. That in and of itself is NOT compelling. There has to be some sort of flaw or temptation or element to her character or the story that will put her at risk because without that danger she is simply invincible and characters like that can be pretty boring and hard to relate to.
I think the point is that Luke was taught by others who knew how to use the Force and he had some inclination towards it because his father was a Jedi. Even then we witnessed him learn and sometimes even struggle with his abilities. We saw him bullied and attacked and other people had to come to his rescue at times. He wasn't always capable of holding his own in every scenario. We saw him tempted to give in to his anger and impatience to the point were we worried that he could fall prey to the Dark Side. We as the audience could sense that he was in danger. Vader was far stronger than Luke and we knew that he could turn or be killed by Vader. We watched his powers and confidence grow over the course of the three original films and eventually he was able to face Vader on his own and prove both his teachers wrong by redeeming his father rather than killing him. Luke was strong in the Force but he wasn't without flaws or conflict.
Plus Luke never hesitated to enlist his friends help when necessary. Leia, Han and Luke did things together! That could have been an interesting character arc for Rey. Perhaps she could have continually got herself in over her head, despite how capable she was after fending for herself for all those years alone, and she needed to learn to rely on her newly made friends to help her out. It would have given her and the new characters more screen time together and given each of them a purpose by illustrating this idea during the messes they get into. Plus it would have given Poe, Finn, and others a chance to shine by showing off their strengths and weaknesses as well. But Rey is good at everything and if we question it we are sexist and can't handle strong female characters. Leia is and always will be a BAD ASS above ANY female Star Wars character and she was there from the very beginning. She was a better shot than both Han and Luke and she was the leader of the Rebellion and more importantly she was Carrie Fisher. Rey is nothing compared to Leia.
Kylo and Rey are evenly matched in their abilities so we never get the sense that she is ever in harms way. She never even gets injured. I am fine with the fact that she can hold her own in some cases. I mean she lived alone for all of those years fending for herself, but is it really necessary for her to be good at everything without effort? It insults the intelligence of the audience if they give no explanation of how she gained at least SOME of these abilities?
Things that I believe about Rey given what we know about her in TFA:
-She is mechanically inclined so would have some idea how to fix things
-She is tough enough to defend herself because she does live alone on a harsh desert planet
-She can speak multiple languages because she interacts with lots of species of aliens on her world and at the junkyard
-She does the right thing by not selling BB-8 and generally looking out for him so she does have at least a conscience that she listens to
Things I don't necessarily buy:
-She is capable of flying any ship
-She would know how to use the Jedi mind trick
-She would be able to resist Kylo Ren's mind probe
-She is capable of using a lightsaber against a trained Dark Side user without so much as a scratch and besting him. Injured or not Kylo was holding his own until the very end of the fight.
-Chewie would let Rey pilot the Falcon after Han died.
-Leia trusts that Rey would be able to convince Luke to return to the fight even though Luke will have no idea who Rey is.
-Despite hearing about the Force and learning about her ability with this power, she is not tempted to use it for her own purposes after having lived a harsh life and only having to look out for her own survival.
The one example I can think of that actually shows SOME conflict in Rey is when she is tempted by Unkarr Plutt's offer of rations if she sells him BB-8. She considers it but after looking at him and realizing how helpless he is, she pities him and tells Plutt that the droid isn't for sale.
Had there been more moments like that for Rey where she is tested to do the right thing, or be challenged in ways that would force her to grow as a character, or overcome some flaw or temptation then I know fans would have been more on board with her.
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joshvanrad
Sr Member
If being talked down to was your fetish this thread would be heaven on earth.
Solo4114
Master Member
You raise some good points, Psab. I'll try to address them as best I can.
Ah, see, I find Rey's internal struggle to be incredibly interesting, although it's way way more subtly handled (and mostly dealt with in TLJ) than any of the other films we've seen. Here's how I see it.
Rey's internal conflict is between her instincts and power on the one hand, and her sense of inadequacy on the other. She has the raw ability of an incredible hero, and she has the instincts to be one. She's driven to help those who can't help themselves. She's compelled to step in when others can't, and to protect the defenseless. But at the same time, she doesn't want the responsibility. Her handing of the sabre to Luke is her physically rejecting that role. "You take it. You're the hero. You save the galaxy. Not me." It seems that this conflict is resolved in TLJ where she basically reaches the conclusion that she has to act, hero or not (which, in fact, makes her a hero) because no one else can or will.
But she struggles with this. It comes from her fear and lack of understanding of her own power, and much moreso from her abandonment by her parents on Jakku.
There are two possible interpretations of the sequence in which Kylo Ren reveals Rey's parentage, although both lead to the same place for Rey. (1) it's the truth, and he's guessed this from the Force, or (2) it's him basically "reading" her surface thoughts and fears, but he's wrong (and she may be about her parents, as well), and they were much much more than simple drunken junk traders. In either case, it's left Rey having to rely on herself, instinctively drawn towards forming a family (hence why she bonds so quickly with Han), and feeling as if she's basically not worthy of the power she has.
Thus, the struggle is not so much "Will Rey be consumed by evil" the way Anakin was, but rather "Will Rey truly take up the mantle of hero?" There's a separate aspect to this which is that becoming a hero of that kind paints a target on your back and means you'll be throwing yourself into increasingly dangerous situations. Although, admittedly, we haven't done as much with that so far.
Now, in the coming film, I think we'll need to see other dilemmas for Rey, because they can't keep having her behave as if she's gonna offload her duties as "hero" to other people. That was kind of the point of TLJ: the new generation is now well and truly stepping up because they have to.
I think that's kind of overstated. Luke received basically two scenes worth of instruction on the Force by Ben in the first film. There's the scene where he gets his dad's sabre and is told what the Force is, and there's the training sequence on the Falcon. Outside of that, he gets no instruction until midway thru ESB. With Yoda, we're not sure how long he studies, but it seems like maybe a week? Couple of weeks? It's really unclear and is probably the first time we have real issues with the passage of time being unclear and possibly inconsistent within a Star Wars film. At most, you could argue he studies for a couple of months. Like, maybe 2. And that's it. That's all the training he ever gets. Yet he's able to do all kinds of amazing things, presumably because he's....just really, really strong in the Force.
We saw Luke rescued by Ben from sand people. We saw Han take out Vader's wingmen, and then get rid of Vader in ANH. We saw him rescued by Leia and Chewie at Cloud City. Outside of that, Luke isn't usually saved by someone else -- he saves himself. I'd also argue that the issue of "Vader was much stronger and might kill Luke" is the same with Kylo Ren. The only reason we never doubt that Rey will survive is the same reason we don't really doubt whether Luke will survive: they're the heroes of their respective tales. They aren't going to die abruptly (it ain't a George R.R. Martin book, after all...).
Han, Luke, and Leia really only do stuff together on the Death Star and on the flight escaping the Death Star, and then again when rescuing Han from Jabba and on Endor (although Luke splits from that party pretty quickly). They spend ESB almost completely split up. They spend ROTJ partially split up, too. Finn and Rey spend a TON of time together in TFA. TLJ splits them up more, admittedly. We won't know what will happen in Ep. IX.
As to the sexism issue, I don't think people are necessarily sexist if they have issues with how the films have handled Rey. I do think they're often demonstrating opinions clouded partially by nostalgia and partially by the voluminous pre-Disney EU. Even if one is capable of mentally saying "Ok, so that stuff never happened," the emotional impact still exists and there's still a sense of "more" going on between the OT characters than literally what's seen in the films. There's stuff that's implied as having occurred between the films, but that's about it. Still, it's hard to "unsee" 30+ years of EU novels/comics/whatever and to separate one's sense of the OT characters and their camaraderie from what's actually on film. That said, I don't think I'm going out on a limb when I say that some people really are affected by latent sexism in their evaluation of Rey. I've encountered very, very little of it on this board, but you can't deny that it does exist.
I actually don't see them as evenly matched exactly. I think they're equally matched in terms of raw power, but that Kylo Ren has more training and -- more importantly -- more confidence in his abilities than Rey does in hers. And he's a LOT more capable of manipulating her than she is of him (so far).
I do think that TFA made her quite strong and -- thanks to JJ's LOOOOOVE of "mysteries" -- made it clear that they were hiding the ball about why she's able to do this. I actually think if it hadn't been lampshaded as much in the film, the audience would've complained a lot less about "Why's she so powerful?!" But no, JJ had to turn it into another stupid mystery box, and thereby created a TON of problems for audience members.
Agreed. I could expand on this, but I have no real criticisms here.
- I don't see her flying "any" ship. She flies the Falcon. That's it. I don't recall her flying any other ship in the films.
- Apparently this is explained in the novel, but it's handled really poorly in the film -- she picks that up from Kylo Ren when he tries to reach into her mind. Turns out he opened up a two-way conduit, and she manages to absorb a bunch of his knowledge without realizing it.
- She's strong in the Force. I don't see any reason why she couldn't do that, if she's meant to be his equal in raw power.
- In TFA, Kylo's wounds are pretty severe, and he's emotionally conflicted at just having killed his father, so he's not at his "Dark Side" best. Moreover, arguably, this is where the force "controls your [Rey's] actions," and since she's strong in the Force, she's able to beat him.
- That's a Chewie thing. I think Chewie reads people, and reads Rey as trustworthy. Orrrrrrr..........OMG CHEWIE IS REY'S DAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!
- I think Leia realizes that Rey is powerful with the Force, but doesn't know how to use it. But again, that's less a Rey thing and more a Leia thing.
- I think that's what makes her a hero. She does have the instinct to use the Force -- to help other people. Arguably you could say that's because of the life she lived. She knows what it's like to be pushed around, picked on, treated like dirt, and she's going to protect the galaxy from that fate. Basically, when you live a rough life like that, you can either repeat the pattern, or break it. Rey chooses to break it.
Right, that one was a good one. It's also a very apparent one. I think the difficulty with TLJ is that all of the stuff that Rey does, all of the conflict, is handled without directly referencing it. It's there, it's in the background of her performance and how she responds to events, but it's not like she sits down and says "I shouldn't have to be the hero. YOU should be the hero" directly.
To me, one of the most compelling parts of TLJ is the very message of "Stop looking to other people to save you. Save yourself." The other day on Facebook, a friend posted an article titled "How to Survive your 40s." She pulled out one bit from it that read something to the effect of "One of the most jarring experiences in realizing you are in your 40s, is when you look around and say to yourself 'Somebody should really do something about this...' and then realize that you are the only 'somebody' who can." To me, that's a HUGE part of TLJ: Rey and her generation have to stop looking to the older generation to save the galaxy, and instead have to do it themselves. I think that's a particularly resonant message at this point in time.
Ah, see, I find Rey's internal struggle to be incredibly interesting, although it's way way more subtly handled (and mostly dealt with in TLJ) than any of the other films we've seen. Here's how I see it.
Rey's internal conflict is between her instincts and power on the one hand, and her sense of inadequacy on the other. She has the raw ability of an incredible hero, and she has the instincts to be one. She's driven to help those who can't help themselves. She's compelled to step in when others can't, and to protect the defenseless. But at the same time, she doesn't want the responsibility. Her handing of the sabre to Luke is her physically rejecting that role. "You take it. You're the hero. You save the galaxy. Not me." It seems that this conflict is resolved in TLJ where she basically reaches the conclusion that she has to act, hero or not (which, in fact, makes her a hero) because no one else can or will.
But she struggles with this. It comes from her fear and lack of understanding of her own power, and much moreso from her abandonment by her parents on Jakku.
There are two possible interpretations of the sequence in which Kylo Ren reveals Rey's parentage, although both lead to the same place for Rey. (1) it's the truth, and he's guessed this from the Force, or (2) it's him basically "reading" her surface thoughts and fears, but he's wrong (and she may be about her parents, as well), and they were much much more than simple drunken junk traders. In either case, it's left Rey having to rely on herself, instinctively drawn towards forming a family (hence why she bonds so quickly with Han), and feeling as if she's basically not worthy of the power she has.
Thus, the struggle is not so much "Will Rey be consumed by evil" the way Anakin was, but rather "Will Rey truly take up the mantle of hero?" There's a separate aspect to this which is that becoming a hero of that kind paints a target on your back and means you'll be throwing yourself into increasingly dangerous situations. Although, admittedly, we haven't done as much with that so far.
Now, in the coming film, I think we'll need to see other dilemmas for Rey, because they can't keep having her behave as if she's gonna offload her duties as "hero" to other people. That was kind of the point of TLJ: the new generation is now well and truly stepping up because they have to.
I think that's kind of overstated. Luke received basically two scenes worth of instruction on the Force by Ben in the first film. There's the scene where he gets his dad's sabre and is told what the Force is, and there's the training sequence on the Falcon. Outside of that, he gets no instruction until midway thru ESB. With Yoda, we're not sure how long he studies, but it seems like maybe a week? Couple of weeks? It's really unclear and is probably the first time we have real issues with the passage of time being unclear and possibly inconsistent within a Star Wars film. At most, you could argue he studies for a couple of months. Like, maybe 2. And that's it. That's all the training he ever gets. Yet he's able to do all kinds of amazing things, presumably because he's....just really, really strong in the Force.
We saw Luke rescued by Ben from sand people. We saw Han take out Vader's wingmen, and then get rid of Vader in ANH. We saw him rescued by Leia and Chewie at Cloud City. Outside of that, Luke isn't usually saved by someone else -- he saves himself. I'd also argue that the issue of "Vader was much stronger and might kill Luke" is the same with Kylo Ren. The only reason we never doubt that Rey will survive is the same reason we don't really doubt whether Luke will survive: they're the heroes of their respective tales. They aren't going to die abruptly (it ain't a George R.R. Martin book, after all...).
Han, Luke, and Leia really only do stuff together on the Death Star and on the flight escaping the Death Star, and then again when rescuing Han from Jabba and on Endor (although Luke splits from that party pretty quickly). They spend ESB almost completely split up. They spend ROTJ partially split up, too. Finn and Rey spend a TON of time together in TFA. TLJ splits them up more, admittedly. We won't know what will happen in Ep. IX.
As to the sexism issue, I don't think people are necessarily sexist if they have issues with how the films have handled Rey. I do think they're often demonstrating opinions clouded partially by nostalgia and partially by the voluminous pre-Disney EU. Even if one is capable of mentally saying "Ok, so that stuff never happened," the emotional impact still exists and there's still a sense of "more" going on between the OT characters than literally what's seen in the films. There's stuff that's implied as having occurred between the films, but that's about it. Still, it's hard to "unsee" 30+ years of EU novels/comics/whatever and to separate one's sense of the OT characters and their camaraderie from what's actually on film. That said, I don't think I'm going out on a limb when I say that some people really are affected by latent sexism in their evaluation of Rey. I've encountered very, very little of it on this board, but you can't deny that it does exist.
I actually don't see them as evenly matched exactly. I think they're equally matched in terms of raw power, but that Kylo Ren has more training and -- more importantly -- more confidence in his abilities than Rey does in hers. And he's a LOT more capable of manipulating her than she is of him (so far).
I do think that TFA made her quite strong and -- thanks to JJ's LOOOOOVE of "mysteries" -- made it clear that they were hiding the ball about why she's able to do this. I actually think if it hadn't been lampshaded as much in the film, the audience would've complained a lot less about "Why's she so powerful?!" But no, JJ had to turn it into another stupid mystery box, and thereby created a TON of problems for audience members.
Agreed. I could expand on this, but I have no real criticisms here.
- I don't see her flying "any" ship. She flies the Falcon. That's it. I don't recall her flying any other ship in the films.
- Apparently this is explained in the novel, but it's handled really poorly in the film -- she picks that up from Kylo Ren when he tries to reach into her mind. Turns out he opened up a two-way conduit, and she manages to absorb a bunch of his knowledge without realizing it.
- She's strong in the Force. I don't see any reason why she couldn't do that, if she's meant to be his equal in raw power.
- In TFA, Kylo's wounds are pretty severe, and he's emotionally conflicted at just having killed his father, so he's not at his "Dark Side" best. Moreover, arguably, this is where the force "controls your [Rey's] actions," and since she's strong in the Force, she's able to beat him.
- That's a Chewie thing. I think Chewie reads people, and reads Rey as trustworthy. Orrrrrrr..........OMG CHEWIE IS REY'S DAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!
- I think Leia realizes that Rey is powerful with the Force, but doesn't know how to use it. But again, that's less a Rey thing and more a Leia thing.
- I think that's what makes her a hero. She does have the instinct to use the Force -- to help other people. Arguably you could say that's because of the life she lived. She knows what it's like to be pushed around, picked on, treated like dirt, and she's going to protect the galaxy from that fate. Basically, when you live a rough life like that, you can either repeat the pattern, or break it. Rey chooses to break it.
Right, that one was a good one. It's also a very apparent one. I think the difficulty with TLJ is that all of the stuff that Rey does, all of the conflict, is handled without directly referencing it. It's there, it's in the background of her performance and how she responds to events, but it's not like she sits down and says "I shouldn't have to be the hero. YOU should be the hero" directly.
To me, one of the most compelling parts of TLJ is the very message of "Stop looking to other people to save you. Save yourself." The other day on Facebook, a friend posted an article titled "How to Survive your 40s." She pulled out one bit from it that read something to the effect of "One of the most jarring experiences in realizing you are in your 40s, is when you look around and say to yourself 'Somebody should really do something about this...' and then realize that you are the only 'somebody' who can." To me, that's a HUGE part of TLJ: Rey and her generation have to stop looking to the older generation to save the galaxy, and instead have to do it themselves. I think that's a particularly resonant message at this point in time.
sztriki
Sr Member
Moreover it was obvious to me that Kylo did not actually want to kill her much like Vader did not actually want to kill Luke. She turned the duel around on a whim and then they got separated by deus ex appearing ravine. Same for Finn, Ren was obviously toying with him and at the first moment when Finn posed threat he cut the duel short. Much like Vader in Empire.
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