Poll: What did you think of Star Wars: The Last Jedi?

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  1. RPF Premium Member astroboy's Avatar
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    2 Days Ago  Jun 19, 2018, 8:05 PM - Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release) #5026

    Cephus said: View Post
    They offend me and most other classic Star Wars fans because they just arbitrarily altered the whole operation of the Force for no reason. That's why they died a quiet death after TPM and good riddance. It's just one more place where nobody dared to tell George Lucas that his ideas are really, really stupid.
    It took them as pseudoscience that the Jedi bought into.

    During the prequels, the Jedi we're at the top of their game. They we're so full of themselves that they needed to justify their power in society.

    Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
  2. Inquisitor Peregrinus's Avatar
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    2 Days Ago  Jun 19, 2018, 8:06 PM - Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release) #5027

    Shadow345 said: View Post
    I don't mind the midichlorians. They aren't actually the force, just a small being that can understand it.
    Except, per Qui-Gon,

    Midi-chlorians are a microcopic lifeform that reside within all living cells and communicates with the Force. [...] Without the midi-chlorians, life could not exist, and we would have no knowledge of the Force. They continually speak to you, telling you the will of the Force.
    Despite our after-the-fact scrambling to have them just be a secondary way to measure someone's Force-use potential, George obviously intended them to be much more directly essential to the whole thing. Not saying I like that -- I don't -- but there it sits, unable to be overwritten.
  3. RPF Premium Member NeoRutty's Avatar
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    2 Days Ago  Jun 19, 2018, 8:37 PM - Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release) #5028

    Inquisitor Peregrinus said: View Post
    Except, per Qui-Gon,



    Despite our after-the-fact scrambling to have them just be a secondary way to measure someone's Force-use potential, George obviously intended them to be much more directly essential to the whole thing. Not saying I like that -- I don't -- but there it sits, unable to be overwritten.

    Maybe Qui-Gon was using the opportunity to start a new Jedi off-shoot cult! And he was working on a young Anakin to be his mentor....

    Just making up his own force religion rules...

    It's like that movie with Joaquin Phoenix... The Master... In this case Jake Loyd was Phoenix character.

    Maybe?

    I haven't seen The Master.
  4. Paul Andrew's Avatar
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    2 Days Ago  Jun 19, 2018, 10:35 PM - Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release) #5029

    Maybe he was dumbing down a very complicated concept as if explaining it to a child...
  5. RPF Premium Member mutronics's Avatar
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    1 Day Ago  Jun 20, 2018, 5:19 AM - Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release) #5030

    Keycube said: View Post
    I'll readily admit I'm a sucker for retconning that seems even remotely plausible. The "tech" part of Star Wars has always been my favorite part, and any excuse to bring something new into the fold and have it doing whatever, no matter how seemingly illogical, is still met with a seven year old's eyes that loves something cool looking going pew-pew.

    But I'm not even a half hour into this video and not only am I facepalming, but I'm thinking I need to buy the TLJ DVD as a means of atonement. Going in spoiler-free opening night, I truly felt that I was going in prepared for anything; now I see that despite still being disappointed, I now have even more reasons to disappointed, due to setting the bar so low in the first place and giving it the benefit of the doubt while watching it. Serves me right.

    Good word choice, calling that video cathartic. Some six months removed, there is still relief in feeling a sense of community.

    EDIT: The more I watch, the more I see that this video needs to be required viewing for all Star Wars fans. Good stuff (even though it's a shame it needed to be made).
    Totally agree with you. The really sad thing is though, itís more entertaining than the movie.
  6. Cephus's Avatar
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    1 Day Ago  Jun 20, 2018, 10:37 AM - Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release) #5031

    astroboy said: View Post
    It took them as pseudoscience that the Jedi bought into.

    During the prequels, the Jedi we're at the top of their game. They we're so full of themselves that they needed to justify their power in society.

    Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
    Which might be a defensible position to take if they weren't using medical tests that showed that midichlorians were real. It isn't a justification, it's a demonstrated reality, at least within TPM. After that, due to fan outrage, they just didn't talk about it again.
  7. gedmac66's Avatar
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    1 Day Ago  Jun 20, 2018, 11:53 AM - Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release) #5032

    Speaking of midichlorians , knowing that GL collaborated with Alan Dean Foster on some of the SW Novelisations , has anyone else thought that the ‘ midichlorians ‘ as written and described , bears an uncanny resemblance to the ‘ gneechees ‘ as written in the ‘ Spellsinger ‘ series by ADF ?
    TPM came out in May 1999 , whilst the first Spellsinger was published in 1983 .
    Just a speculative curiosity .

    Ged
  8. RPF Premium Member NeoRutty's Avatar
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    1 Day Ago  Jun 20, 2018, 12:01 PM - Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release) #5033

    Cephus said: View Post
    Which might be a defensible position to take if they weren't using medical tests that showed that midichlorians were real. It isn't a justification, it's a demonstrated reality, at least within TPM. After that, due to fan outrage, they just didn't talk about it again.

    OR, it's like when they make you hold those rods to measure your thetans.
  9. Cephus's Avatar
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    1 Day Ago  Jun 20, 2018, 3:20 PM - Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release) #5034

    NeoRutty said: View Post
    OR, it's like when they make you hold those rods to measure your thetans.
    The results of those tests can't be transmitted to a computer for processing though. George screwed up. That's all there is to it. Someone should have, and probably tried to, tell him how dumb the whole idea was. He didn't listen.
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    1 Day Ago  Jun 20, 2018, 3:21 PM - Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release) #5035

    Bryancd said: View Post
    Iím not even defending the movie, Iím pointing out these attackís on the people making the movies and the idea they are pushing an agenda are dumb.
    Agreed
  11. Solo4114's Avatar
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    1 Day Ago  Jun 20, 2018, 3:36 PM - Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release) #5036

    My theory on midichlorians, both behind the scenes, and in canon (now).

    Behind the scenes, I think George always had this concept about how the Force worked. There was the kind of mystical explanation that we got in the OT, but apparently "midichlorians" go back quite a ways on his yellow legal pad of Star Wars ideas. I think they were an early concept that he was told bogged down the story, when it could be explained more simply during the OT. When he went to shoot the PT, he wanted to use his idea, and nobody was around to tell him "George, that's a really dumb idea." So he used it. And it was...a really dumb idea. Not necessarily because it's inherently contradictory to the story we've already been told, but because he did ZERO to contextualize the differences in the stories. You can have midichlorians be included in the story, but you've got to be able to explain to audiences why you previously said "It works like ABC" and now you're saying "It works like XYZ." Otherwise, you end up with audiences looking at something like this as a retcon, which doesn't work so well.

    For George, though, it was probably never a retcon. He always had the idea in the back of his mind. Now, we all know George's "I always thought...." lines are...shall we say...prone to slight fluctuations... But at the end of the day, I think what that's about is that he just has a TON of ideas that are always floating around, and what ends up winding up on film is merely the idea he had in the moment it wound up on film, until that idea recedes in his mind and another comes to prominence. And, because they're all floating around in there, it's always pretty much made sense to him how it all works...but not to the audience. To the audience, it looks like you've established a rule for your universe as part of world building, and now you're arbitrarily and abruptly changing that rule without explaining the rule change. In-universe rules are important in storytelling. They can act as story guard-rails so that you're confined to things working a particular way. Likewise, they can serve the drama of the tale when a rule is broken as part of the story. (E.g., "Crossing the streams would result in total protonic reversal which would cause every molecule in your body to explode outward at the speed of light." And then later "Guys....we have to cross the streams!") But simply changing them without (a) making it a clearly dramatic choice, and (b) without explaining it or explaining why the change has been made. So, there's nothing really "wrong" about midichlorians, but you need to explain why you're introducing this new information. Which brings me to my in-universe justification.

    The way I make all of this work in my head is by deciding that the Jedi of the Old Republic, especially by that point, had grown overconfident, and arguably disconnected from the Force. With respect to the midichlorians, they attempted to apply scientific principles to understanding a phenomenon that is beyond their understanding, and simply assumed they had it all figured out. Specifically, they mistook correlation for causation. Yes, people with high midichlorian counts are much stronger in the Force than people with low or no midichlorian count. But the midichlorians do not make the Force happen. It's not like you can get a blood transfusion that is loaded with midichlorians and suddenly -- even temporarily -- become a master Force wielder. They simply occur at the same time, and people are strong in the Force for...other reasons.

    And beyond that...we don't really know for sure. You can introduce theories like the distinction between the "Living" and "Cosmic" Force, or the Force having a "will" of its own as if it's alive, or "beyond" alive. You can then use the depiction of the Jedi's understanding of the Force during TPM and the PT era as illustrative of their weaknesses, rather than as a definitive statement about how the Force works, and keep the whole thing kind of a mystery that people simply try to describe, but can't completely.
  12. Cephus's Avatar
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    1 Day Ago  Jun 20, 2018, 5:44 PM - Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release) #5037

    I really don't care if George always intended it that way, it's still a dumb idea and by the time he actually got around to it, nobody thought the Force worked that way. When you describe something one way for decades, then suddenly decide it works a different way, even if that was your intention all along, people are going to tell you where to shove your intentions. It doesn't matter what you have in some notebook, it matters what you actually put on screen, and whether GL likes it or not, it wasn't midichlorians.
  13. JPH's Avatar
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    1 Day Ago  Jun 20, 2018, 7:18 PM - Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release) #5038

    Inquisitor Peregrinus said: View Post
    Except, per Qui-Gon,



    Despite our after-the-fact scrambling to have them just be a secondary way to measure someone's Force-use potential, George obviously intended them to be much more directly essential to the whole thing. Not saying I like that -- I don't -- but there it sits, unable to be overwritten.
    Makes Midi-chlorians sound like mitochondria, but using a universally linked particle like Kaons. Separate a pair, effect one and it still reflects on the separated particle...so, actually not too far fetched. Also, they speak to you, but do you listen or understand?
  14. Inquisitor Peregrinus's Avatar
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    1 Day Ago  Jun 20, 2018, 11:34 PM - Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release) #5039

    Solo4114 said: View Post
    Behind the scenes, I think George always had this concept about how the Force worked.
    He came up with it somewhere along the way, but it wasn't part of his original notes. Alan Dean Foster had access to them while writing the novelization, and included a lot of stuff from them that wasn't in the film -- or even in the OT at all. Some stuff wouldn't show up 'til the Prequels. Some stuff got heavily revised before then. And what Foster has Obi-Wan saying about the Force on the Falcon doesn't fit with even a passing mention of anything like midi-chlorians in George's notes...

    "It is an energy field and something more," Kenobi went on, almost mystically. " An aura that at once controls and obeys. It is a nothingness that can accomplish miracles." He looked thoughtful for a moment.

    "No one, not even the Jedi scientists, were able to truly define the force[sic]. Possibly no one ever will. Sometimes there is as much magic as science in the explanations of the force. Yet what is a magician but a practicing theorist? Now, let's try again."
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    16 Hours Ago  Jun 21, 2018, 7:12 AM - Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release) #5040

    Paul Andrew said: View Post
    Maybe he was dumbing down a very complicated concept as if explaining it to a child...
    You ever feel like a burst of understanding just explodes in your brain like a flash of light? You just gave me one of those moments.
  16. Paul Andrew's Avatar
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    13 Hours Ago  Jun 21, 2018, 10:37 AM - Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release) #5041

    cayman shen said: View Post
    You ever feel like a burst of understanding just explodes in your brain like a flash of light? You just gave me one of those moments.
    I'm not even sure I'd thought of it in that context until I typed that tbh
  17. Snikt's Avatar
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    13 Hours Ago  Jun 21, 2018, 10:42 AM - Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release) #5042

    Ummm so Im gone for a little bit and I see some things have been shaken up so to speak... *cough*
  18. Paul Andrew's Avatar
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    12 Hours Ago  Jun 21, 2018, 11:34 AM - Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release) #5043

    Snikt said: View Post
    Ummm so Im gone for a little bit and I see some things have been shaken up so to speak... *cough*
    Waves hand:
    There's nothing to see here
  19. Snikt's Avatar
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    12 Hours Ago  Jun 21, 2018, 11:43 AM - Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release) #5044

    Paul Andrew said: View Post
    Waves hand:
    There's nothing to see here
    So many rules on this forum that are so weird. Its like dealing with my HOA
  20. Solo4114's Avatar
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    10 Hours Ago  Jun 21, 2018, 1:50 PM - Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release) #5045

    Do not talk about Fight Club.

    Also, there is NO Rule 6.
  21. Axlotl's Avatar
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    9 Hours Ago  Jun 21, 2018, 2:30 PM - Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release) #5046

    Solo4114 said: View Post
    Do not talk about Fight Club.

    Also, there is NO Rule 6.
    But there IS rule 34.
  22. RPF Premium Member Coop's Avatar
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    9 Hours Ago  Jun 21, 2018, 2:41 PM - Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release) #5047

    Snikt said: View Post
    So many rules on this forum that are so weird. Its like dealing with my HOA
    It's not really that complicated. No politics. No religion. Don't be A-holes to each other. Pretty simple. Anyway...

  23. Snikt's Avatar
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    8 Hours Ago  Jun 21, 2018, 4:09 PM - Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release) #5048

    Coop said: View Post
    It's not really that complicated. No politics. No religion. Don't be A-holes to each other. Pretty simple. Anyway...

    https://media.giphy.com/media/10RgsuetO4uDkY/giphy.gif
    I meant not being able to even mention banned members. THATS what Im referring to. The stuff you mentioned isnt that complicated, but thanks for the snark.
  24. RPF Premium Member Coop's Avatar
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    7 Hours Ago  Jun 21, 2018, 4:18 PM - Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release) #5049

    Snikt said: View Post
    I meant not being able to even mention banned members. THATS what Im referring to. The stuff you mentioned isnt that complicated, but thanks for the snark.
    That was pretty snarky. Apologies.
  25. JPH's Avatar
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    7 Hours Ago  Jun 21, 2018, 4:26 PM - Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release) #5050

    Solo4114 said: View Post
    Do not talk about Fight Club.

    Also, there is NO Rule 6.
    There is no rule 6, Bruce!

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