Poll: What did you think of Star Wars: The Last Jedi?

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  1. RPF Premium Member astroboy's Avatar
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    23 Hours Ago  May 22, 2018, 12:45 PM - Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release) #4476

  2. Solo4114's Avatar
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    22 Hours Ago  May 22, 2018, 1:25 PM - Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release) #4477

    Jaitea said: View Post
    Thanks Bryan

    But listening to the main criticism of the film, as far as you see it,....what do you think is great about the film,....why do you think people are divided?

    What do you think of those who are unhappy?

    I asked Solo4114 a while ago something similar,..I really would like to know what you think of the issues that people find with the movie

    J
    Jaitea, did I ever respond to you on these points? I can't remember now. If I didn't, please know it wasn't intentional. I'm happy to answer these questions, too (if I haven't already).

    SethS said: View Post
    Goals in act two remain the same, but the difficulty to achieve them is continually increased with constant set-backs. ESB and TLJ are both fine in doing this, but the one big thing to these set-backs that sets a good movie apart from a bad one is that these seemingly simple set backs should trigger the key drama going in the leads, otherwise it feels like false or forced conflict.
    I absolutely agree here. I also agree with your assessment of ESB and how the plot elements/complications have personal impact on the characters, and often are themselves directly driven by the characters' underlying flaws, which they must then overcome (either in that moment, or later).

    In TLJ the second act feels stalled to me because only half the characters get this proper treatment. Rey, Luke and Kylo have the emotional escalation— from Rey’s abandonment issues to Kylo’s inability to shed his emotions, their plot roadblocks hinge upon the personal drama.
    Again, agreed.

    Poe and Finn however— have zero of this. They try to put it in, but it’s hollow. Poe has to learn a lesson about being wreckless, but the only thing at risk is his own station. Han’s recklessness endangered Leia, which was the opposite of his goal. Finn co-opts Rose’s backstory since he doesn’t have one, which consists of her telling us about her childhood. Given that we JUST met her, and we’ve seen none of her life, this falls flat.
    On these points, though, I disagree. I think the film does a decent job of conveying how their personal choices/failures have a greater impact, and arguably one that is directly at odds with their underlying goals. But for that, I think you need to also evaluate what those underlying goals are.

    You characterized Poe as having a goal of "leading the Resistance," and Finn as "making a difference." I would actually argue that Poe's goal is not leading the Resistance, but saving it and securing victories for it. Finn's goals are a bit less clear, but center more on finding Rey and helping her.

    Poe's goals are laid out early in the movie with the bomber attack and how Poe disobeys orders and gets busted down to Captain from Commander (I think -- he gets demoted, either way). Leia is the one who wants to groom him for command. Poe, meanwhile, is thinking entirely small-picture and about having struck a blow for the Resistance. Tactical, rather than strategic. When the Raddus is tracked by the FO and Leia is incapacitated, we start to see more of his overall concern for the Resistance (almost as if he's taken Leia's advice to heart, but learned the wrong lesson). The problem is that he can only see what's directly in front of him, instead of seeing the bigger picture, and because he is insubordinate, and Holdo is kind of a crappy leader who can't manage him, he botches her plan.

    With Finn, his goal is to find and help Rey, and prevent her from returning to the doomed fleet, and he's willing to abandon the Resistance to do it. This eventually shifts to helping Poe disable the hyperspace tracking on the Supremacy, which is how Finn and Rose end up on Canto Bight (looking for the "Master Codebreaker"), and find DJ, who betrays them. Apparently, either DJ overhears their plan or they tell him the plan, which he then tells the First Order.

    So, Poe's goal while on board the Raddus is to preserve the Resistance, and he sees Holdo as not doing that. This is why he supports Finn's mission, and this is why he mutinies against Holdo. However, his (and Finn's) support of this plan lead's directly to the First Order being able to spot the fleeing transports, and shooting them down as well as tracking the Resistance to Crait (when previously, the plan was that they'd slip away unnoticed, and then hide out on Crait until the FO left after it would have undoubtedly blown the Raddus up). We watch (as I recall) Poe's horror as the transports start getting blown up, and although he doesn't say "It's all my fault," you get the sense that he knows it.

    With Finn, as I said, it's a bit less clear. Finn's goals are still focused around Rey, then shift to his desire to hurt the First Order. I actually think his character is handled the worst in all of this, if only because his goals are never 100% clear. It's therefore harder to frustrate his goals in a way that kind of hoists him on a petard of his own personal foibles, the way Poe's recklessness clearly ends up blowing up in his face and frustrating his desire to save/protect the Resistance. Part of that is because Finn's method for achieving his goal (to wit: protect Rey from returning to this disaster) ends up overlapping with Poe's method of trying to save the Resistance, instead of keeping things distinct.

    You could argue that a lot of this ends up motivated by Finn's infatuation with Rey, but the film never really plays that up enough to sell it effectively. Except for one moment in TFA where Finn asks if Rey has a boyfriend, we just kinda get the sense that they're really good friends and that's it. This, too, could've served the story better if you had a kind of love triangle between Rey, Finn, and Rose, and where Finn's desperate desire to protect Rey end up getting Rose hurt/killed just as he's starting to realize his feelings for her. That, I think, would've tied up the moment on Crait where Rose (almost) sacrifices herself to save Finn, they kiss, and she passes out. But, to do that, they would've had to make Finn's motivations a lot clearer, and really underline his infatuation with Rey a lot more than they did. Instead, they kind of split Finn's focus between hurting the First Order and helping Rey, but neither ends up hammered home clearly enough. I actually wonder how much of this is a result of editing decisions or timing/pacing issues. Like, with enough time, they could've had both things being Finn's goals. Hell, his infatuation with Rey could've even been partially driven by seeing her as a vehicle for his revenge against the FO or something.

    I think what they wound up doing with Finn is gradually shifting his focus from Rey to the Resistance as a whole, but it plays kind of confusingly on screen, and gets muddled by the Rose romance, and they don't really spend enough time building the groundwork for his shifts in focus.

    Add in the fact that Luke is decidedly non-Luke, and the great space-chase is stupid as hell, you end up with a second act where a lot of things happen, and yet nothing really happens.
    I find the 2nd act to be much more about Rey than anything else. Not a lot happens plot-wise, but Rey's development catapults in the 2nd act (the 3rd act being her departure from Ach-To).

    Luke becomes the Luke we want in the third act— this should have happened at the mid-point. He’s broken Luke in act one, he agrees to teach Rey, but in his anti-teaching way into act two. At the midpoint, they should have left Ach-To to help Finn and Rose. Luke could then have the experience Rose has— seeing the down-trodden, etc. With Luke’s history, this would actually work. Then Luke steps up, but because he’s avoided being a hero for awhile, Rey leaves to see Kylo. Bringing him back to be hero PLUS for the third act.

    It’s a suprisingly minor change that gets you to the same place, with a Luke that would feel right.
    In broad strokes? Yeah, I think Luke leaving with Rey would've worked, but you end up with logistical problems. Rey doesn't know where she's going other than to find the Supremacy and confront Kylo. I think she ends up on Crait because she senses something with the Force. But how would Luke end up on Crait, since he's cut himself off from the Force, and isn't in a place of extremely powerful Force energy like Ach To?

    You could have Rey end up at Canto Bight, and then have Luke go help Finn and Rose and DJ try to bust up the hyperspace tracker...but why would Rey have gone to Canto Bight, when it makes more sense to have her go directly to Kylo Ren? You could maybe shift Rey's third vision with Ren and the whole "What happened with the school?" thing to have it happen while they're on DJ's ship headed to the Supremacy...but then she's already going to the Supremacy.

    The other thing is that Rey's decision is ultimately her own. That's part of what makes it meaningful, and it's central to her character arc. When Rey first shows up, she's imploring the Great Jedi Hero Luke to come save everyone. By the time she leaves, she's convinced he's just a broken old man, and that it falls to her to save people, which she tries to do by turning Ben back to the light. She's no longer looking outside herself for what she needs; she's looking to herself. From "Who will save us?" to "We will save ourselves." If Luke goes with her, it undercuts all of that, I think.

    Instead, I think the film could've taken maybe one more moment with Luke -- following the Yoda/tree-burning sequence -- to have him start to tap in to the Force again and follow Rey or sense Leia's peril or both. And that would be what finally prompts him to action and the Force Projection thing (which, as a Force power, I have no problem with).
    Last edited by Solo4114; 22 Hours Ago at 1:35 PM.
  3. Jaitea's Avatar
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    22 Hours Ago  May 22, 2018, 1:30 PM - Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release) #4478

    Solo4114 said: View Post
    Jaitea, did I ever respond to you on these points? I can't remember now. If I didn't, please know it wasn't intentional. I'm happy to answer these questions, too (if I haven't already).
    Yep, you did indeed Dan,...thanks

    J
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    22 Hours Ago  May 22, 2018, 1:33 PM - Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release) #4479

    Solo4114 said: View Post
    Poe's goals are laid out early in the movie with the bomber attack and how Poe disobeys orders and gets busted down to Captain from Commander (I think -- he gets demoted, either way). Leia is the one who wants to groom him for command. Poe, meanwhile, is thinking entirely small-picture and about having struck a blow for the Resistance. Tactical, rather than strategic. When the Raddus is tracked by the FO and Leia is incapacitated, we start to see more of his overall concern for the Resistance (almost as if he's taken Leia's advice to heart, but learned the wrong lesson). The problem is that he can only see what's directly in front of him, instead of seeing the bigger picture, and because he is insubordinate, and Holdo is kind of a crappy leader who can't manage him, he botches her plan.
    I was ablr to parse what you were saying, but FTFY.
  5. Solo4114's Avatar
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    22 Hours Ago  May 22, 2018, 1:33 PM - Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release) #4480

    Inquisitor Peregrinus said: View Post
    I was ablr to parse what you were saying, but FTFY.
    Oops! I'll fix that in a min.

    Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
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    21 Hours Ago  May 22, 2018, 2:24 PM - Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release) #4481

    Almost six months removed from TLJ, I've come to realize the subtle, ahem, "genius" of the film; some people enjoyed it. and are able to be engaged enough with it to break down scenes and character motivations, etc., and see it as an integral part of the Star Wars family. And yet I, however, have come to realize that if I pretend the movie never existed, VII will still dovetail perfectly into IX. Absolutely nothing was advanced for me in terms of character development, and wherever they are/whatever the characters are doing in terms of current status - and recent history - will be taken care of in the crawl, anyway, so...yeah.

    That's not easy to do - make a film so polarizing, and yet still appease both camps on opposite ends of the spectrum.

    So my conundrum now, is do I watch the rest of some guy's four-part YouTube "Reimagining" of TLJ using stills from the film (I've only seen part one, and I enjoyed it), or do I honor my dismissal of everything TLJ-related? Decisions, decisions...
  7. Sluis Van Shipyards's Avatar
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    16 Hours Ago  May 22, 2018, 7:11 PM - Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release) #4482

    I could maybe, maybe accept the movie if they had shown Luke first try to get Ben back instead of kill him. Like I said before, he didn't even know Anakin, yet he put himself in danger to turn him back to the Light Side. He watched Ben grow up as his nephew, yet his first instinct is to kill, which is not how a Jedi would act. Then, after seeing Ben was set on the Dark Side, if they had shown that Luke had try to got stop him, like Obi Wan did before him, and somehow failed. Maybe a huge group of Stormtroopers showed up or something and he had to get away. If they did that, I wouldn't like it, but I could possibly accept that Luke.

    Anyway I still think the entire point of these movies was to reset everything (one Jedi and student, two Dark Side, Rebels vs. Empire, etc.) so they could do a cut and paste OT reboot. If I cared one iota about the next movie, I'd guess that Rey will turn Ben back to the Light Side and at the end Anakin, Yoda, Obi Wan, and Luke Force ghosts will show up to high five them...
  8. sztriki's Avatar
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    10 Hours Ago  May 23, 2018, 1:29 AM - Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release) #4483

    Keycube said: View Post
    Almost six months removed from TLJ, I've come to realize the subtle, ahem, "genius" of the film; some people enjoyed it. and are able to be engaged enough with it to break down scenes and character motivations, etc., and see it as an integral part of the Star Wars family. And yet I, however, have come to realize that if I pretend the movie never existed, VII will still dovetail perfectly into IX. Absolutely nothing was advanced for me in terms of character development, and wherever they are/whatever the characters are doing in terms of current status - and recent history - will be taken care of in the crawl, anyway, so...yeah.

    That's not easy to do - make a film so polarizing, and yet still appease both camps on opposite ends of the spectrum.

    So my conundrum now, is do I watch the rest of some guy's four-part YouTube "Reimagining" of TLJ using stills from the film (I've only seen part one, and I enjoyed it), or do I honor my dismissal of everything TLJ-related? Decisions, decisions...
    That’s a funny approach and I was thinking similar, can I still get into ep9 and sot of bypass ep8? Most major turning points (ahem) sort of fly with me, it’s really about how it was done. I guess it will depend on how ep9 turns out.
    Regarding the conundrum...why not leave all channels open? With me the fanfic and ignoring TLJ went hand in hand sort of a consequence of each other. I just re-listened the entire story recently and I’m a bit confused sometimes as to what was in the movie and what was fanfic...like thinking, well there were bits I liked in the movie such as some of the flashbacks through the lightsabers, oh wait that was the fanfic story.
    But overall I’m much more curious as to how that story will end than the official Ep9.
    Last edited by sztriki; 7 Hours Ago at 4:06 AM.
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    3 Hours Ago  May 23, 2018, 8:51 AM - Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release) #4484

    Keycube said: View Post
    Almost six months removed from TLJ, I've come to realize the subtle, ahem, "genius" of the film; some people enjoyed it. and are able to be engaged enough with it to break down scenes and character motivations, etc., and see it as an integral part of the Star Wars family. And yet I, however, have come to realize that if I pretend the movie never existed, VII will still dovetail perfectly into IX. Absolutely nothing was advanced for me in terms of character development, and wherever they are/whatever the characters are doing in terms of current status - and recent history - will be taken care of in the crawl, anyway, so...yeah.

    That's not easy to do - make a film so polarizing, and yet still appease both camps on opposite ends of the spectrum.

    So my conundrum now, is do I watch the rest of some guy's four-part YouTube "Reimagining" of TLJ using stills from the film (I've only seen part one, and I enjoyed it), or do I honor my dismissal of everything TLJ-related? Decisions, decisions...
    I agree that most of what happens in TLJ doesn't matter and can be ignored, but there is a glaring exception: LUKE.

    TFA actually begins (in both the crawl and first scene) with the quest to find Luke. It ends on a cliffhanger as to what will happen next now that he has been found. You skip straight to Episode IX...You have no idea how that final scene in TFA was resolved and realize that no one is looking for him anymore, that Luke is dead. Even if Luke's sacrifice is mentioned in the opening crawl of IX, is that how that final TFA scene should be resolved, by skipping over Luke's actual scenes/dialog and finding out what happened to him in the crawl of IX?

    It can never be a perfect dovetail when skipping TLJ means you then have a ST with NO actions/dialog by Luke. Now this IS JJ's fault. If he would have had Luke in TFA, then we could have skipped Luke's terribly-written scenes in TLJ and still have had a ST with some Luke in it.
  10. Keycube's Avatar
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    49 Minutes Ago  May 23, 2018, 11:10 AM - Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release) #4485

    Spyhunter2k said: View Post
    I agree that most of what happens in TLJ doesn't matter and can be ignored, but there is a glaring exception: LUKE...
    True this. I guess from a personal standpoint, going into this trilogy actually hoping that the original characters weren't going to be in it at all (fearing that there was no way it could be pulled off without alienating some fans; plus, the "been there, done that" quality), that doesn't feel like a major loss to me. However, yeah, from a redemption standpoint (for the character AND the man), I wouldn't mind seeing him written into IX doing something befitting of the Luke we grew up with. :-\

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