Upside-down Kobold?

You have a point about not being able to see rivet heads clearly.

I'll throw in... there were other stunt sabers.

View attachment 776512View attachment 776521

and yes, Vader's Graflex was​ a rebuilt ESB stunt, allen screws and all :)

Yes! I think that’s a very cool lineage of the Vader saber. And definitely - with the big “if” this is an example of it, doesn’t mean it’s definitely the ranch saber. Could easily be another stunt.


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If its upside down the screws may be in the shadowed area and why we cannot see them. That would mean extra holes were drilled to change what side the D ring slots into, and seems too much hassle to do. It does look to me to be upside down, but I can easily see how it could be light and shadow magic which always is my downfall:) Even in a picture like this we still should be able to see the rivets/screws you would think. The way the aluminum reflects in that Vader stunt pic could be the answer, it reflects in a way that way washes out what we see, and could be why we don't see any rivets, and leads me back to feeling it is not upside down. Interesting find. Cheers for sharing. Look forward to other opinions.
 
Quick question on the photo: Is that ESB Graflex end a folmer or non folmer?

When it comes to the bladed stunt, I'm not sure. We've never seen the bottom up close.

The Vader one - funnily enough the bottom has a brass plate or putty covering the endcap lettering. PB100095b.jpg

PB100095b.jpg
 
I'm going to vote no, and here's why.

The Kobold clip, being a C channel item likes to make a dark shadow from a distance. Both the blue and light screencaps have that shadow - but it stops halfway down the kobold. The shadow actually extends up onto the glove, not even sure how this is happening :D

The kobold rear face is flat for half the length and raised and concave the rest. The coincidence that the shadow stops halfway, and the Kobold changes halfway, make me think it's the same as the famous one. in fact, in the first collage, I see a gradual lightening left to right, as if it's a concave surface, like the back of a Kobold clip.

That being said, I've heard Halliwax's related theory and I heartily support it. Good luck buddy, wishing you lots of strength!

Tom, just curious - isn’t the Kobold clip concave in both sections? Definitely one section is raised for sure, but both sections are concave, no?

Even if that is true, I don’t know that it changes the outcome.




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Tom, just curious - isn’t the Kobold clip concave in both sections? Definitely one section is raised for sure, but both sections are concave, no?

Even if that is true, I don’t know that it changes the outcome.


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dang it, they are :lol I think I was prioritizing the surface touching the kobold flash unit

I suppose the concave surface could collect shadows in the center.

this is still a really interesting screencap.
 
dang it, they are :lol I think I was prioritizing the surface touching the kobold flash unit

I suppose the concave surface could collect shadows in the center.

this is still a really interesting screencap.

I agree, it’s a little perplexing.

While I’d be 100% inclined to agree with you about it just being the concave part after you brought that up, two things that still hold me up a little are that I can’t see a clear defining horizontal line on the clip that would indicate that stepped change and I can’t see what I would think should be two pretty visible rivet holes.

Of course it’s easy to attribute both those things to just being a crappy picture but I’m not sure I’m ready to write it off as that yet.

I suppose there’s also the possibility it’s neither case and something different entirely.




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Though I feel a bit like Mr. McGee chasing the Hulk, I think I found some additional compelling evidence of the flipped clip and possibly the ranch saber itself.

Looking at a better resolution still-photo of Luke on Dagobah, this looks pretty convincing that the kobold is flipped here. I had seen this picture many times before, but never the resolution that I had tonight. The upward facing rails are very evident, as is the channel created by them, and you can see the D-ring passing through the channel at the back which you would not see if the clip was in its normal configuration. The color and tone of the D ring passing through the channel matches the rest of the D ring and is defintely different than the tone of the rails from the clip. I threw in a quick sketch which probably explains all that a lot easier.

Add to that that it is missing the red button and it was said the ranch saber came from Dagobah, I do think this is fairly compelling evidence that not only is the kobold flipped here, but this may actualy be the infamous ranch saber.

Hopefully the uploaded photo retains it's resolution. It's extremely easy to see on my iPad, but if anyone would like me to shoot it to them in another way, just let me know.

Very interested to hear opinions!

dagobah kobold.jpgkobold drawing.jpg
 
So the ones in these pics must be the Wampa saber then, as the hollow part of the clip is at the bottom.

f603c7c658349a3b98297b90b41ceb81.jpg
7e9f29a4ae0b6ce73a45dd4da66102d4.jpg
dl2bGXF.png

Here's another screenshot of the scene in question, larger to provide the context. Could the darker area be shadow created by the rivets instead?
Screenshot_20171130-033603.png
 
So the ones in these pics must be the Wampa saber then, as the hollow part of the clip is at the bottom.

View attachment 777008
View attachment 777009
View attachment 777010

Here's another screenshot of the scene in question, larger to provide the context. Could the darker area be shadow created by the rivets instead?
View attachment 777011

Well, I definitely agree the belt hangers in those photos have the clip mounted in the traditional way. It could be that the saber he’s swinging in the shot in question is a different one from those. Plus if anything the rivets would be in that whiter mushy area towards the bottom which I still find a little perplexing they can’t be seen.

If you look at this pic from the deleted scene on Dagobah, even on this crappy pic, the two rivet holes are still pretty defined as you can see, but they are not on the pic n question. I’m not saying that definitely makes it the flipped clip. But it is odd.
098aac6852b0a7867d83f7e9d7d59905.jpg


So, while I do think the prior Dagobah picture provides compelling evidence the flipped Kobold is real, whether or not it’s the actual ranch saber, I suppose is still up for debate - though it seems much more plausible now.

As to whether that hilt with the flipped Kobold was ever like that during this part of filming I think is also debatable.



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Ok, so ive finally had some time to sit down an examine this. since MS posted i have been very excited. Ever since Tom posted his Ranch saber build i have been on a mission to prove that the Ranch saber is in fact the dagobah saber, which in turn is the wampa cave saber!

many members believe the ranch saber to be the dagobah saber because before celebration 3 when the sabers were on display, the ranch saber was on display in the ranch with the top (bunny ears) red button missing.

which... with the red button being so easily removable you cant really claim its the same saber because of that..

so i began searching and examining every picture i could find. this went on and on for months. I have come to my own personal belief there was only 1 belt hanger (Hero) in ESB. This belt hanger is seen every time luke is wearing it on his belt, including the Wampa cave scene (when its in the snow, and when its pulled out of the snow and into his hand) and sitting on the ledge when luke is pulling himself up after vader pushing him out the window

Same characteristics; this saber has the black screw in all theses shots, so i know what your all thinking. well Crazy ol' Halliwax! what if they put black screws in all the clamps for ESB!? HA!! ...this is where it gets fun...

I number each grip from the grip lined up with the clamp and counting clock wise, so Clamp 6 has a very big notch in it, which can be clearly seen in the wampa cave
UsNzNru.jpg


this notch can be found STILL today on the ranch saber

klPiI3Y.jpg


better shot
BQbrQj1.jpg


The money shot
utEu408.png


not only do we have a notch, but we also on grip 1 have a curve (notch at tip of arrow)
UPVzEXy.jpg


this curve can be seen when luke arguing with the frog hermit
UgAuooF.jpg


so i strongly believe this is the same saber. I truly want to believe that the photo MS posted is the clip upside down, But i think it is only a shadow. I believe the belt hanger was thrown into hamills hand (some say the scene is played in reverse, but i dont know how the physics work with the snow and everything... in that scene) so its thrown into his hand and he leans back, revealing the kobold and they rotoscoped the blade onto the belt hanger(Hero).

we have seen them rotoscope blades onto the the hero before, when hes hanging on the AT AT, when he ignites the V2 before he cuts the speeder bike in RoTJ. so we know they aren't afraid to rotoscope with out the stunt poles attached to the saber

there is then the photo we have of luke cutting off the Wampa's arm, and hes using the graflex ANH stunt. so the saber was switched out during that scene

but i was still not convinced.. i wanted more proof, so i dug some more in my mind. trying to think back of every time we see the belt hanger. there is that 1 part with the graflex on the ledge where luke is pulling himself up after vader force pushes him out the window, but its not a good enough picture. ...but here is a great one
R0EUgkD.jpg


qUzViLG.jpg


you can see the black screw good in the next one
jADvG6f.jpg


40c9ABI.jpg

To me the above photos looks like the kobold in its normal position

though i really was hoping that this could be the saber with the upside down kobold. i think its just shadowing :(

I think the theory still stays the same, during the dagobah scenes the red button went missing on the belt hanger and no one cared. when changing sets, came all new props, and the saber got its red button from some other stunt. later went into the archives, and we now have evidence of random people being allowed into the archives and doing what ever they want with the props.. so someone could have stolen the red button, broke it, or fell off and kicked under the rug..

somewhere down the road they wanted to display the last hero graflex, and did the modifications to it as it sits today..

am i 100% correct?! i have no idea, this is all just my personal belief and what i see. i have been completely wrong in life before and wouldn't be surprised if i am, but this is just my belief.

Gotta thank MS, Tom and Seth. i had a real fun time digging through my resources and examining all the pictures. also kept me busy from worrying of every day life. it was fun!
 
Ok, so ive finally had some time to sit down an examine this. since MS posted i have been very excited. Ever since Tom posted his Ranch saber build i have been on a mission to prove that the Ranch saber is in fact the dagobah saber, which in turn is the wampa cave saber!

many members believe the ranch saber to be the dagobah saber because before celebration 3 when the sabers were on display, the ranch saber was on display in the ranch with the top (bunny ears) red button missing.

which... with the red button being so easily removable you cant really claim its the same saber because of that..

so i began searching and examining every picture i could find. this went on and on for months. I have come to my own personal belief there was only 1 belt hanger (Hero) in ESB. This belt hanger is seen every time luke is wearing it on his belt, including the Wampa cave scene (when its in the snow, and when its pulled out of the snow and into his hand) and sitting on the ledge when luke is pulling himself up after vader pushing him out the window

Same characteristics; this saber has the black screw in all theses shots, so i know what your all thinking. well Crazy ol' Halliwax! what if they put black screws in all the clamps for ESB!? HA!! ...this is where it gets fun...

I number each grip from the grip lined up with the clamp and counting clock wise, so Clamp 6 has a very big notch in it, which can be clearly seen in the wampa cave
https://i.imgur.com/UsNzNru.jpg

this notch can be found STILL today on the ranch saber

https://i.imgur.com/klPiI3Y.jpg

better shot
https://i.imgur.com/BQbrQj1.jpg

The money shot
https://i.imgur.com/utEu408.png

not only do we have a notch, but we also on grip 1 have a curve (notch at tip of arrow)
https://i.imgur.com/UPVzEXy.jpg

this curve can be seen when luke arguing with the frog hermit
https://i.imgur.com/UgAuooF.jpg

so i strongly believe this is the same saber. I truly want to believe that the photo MS posted is the clip upside down, But i think it is only a shadow. I believe the belt hanger was thrown into hamills hand (some say the scene is played in reverse, but i dont know how the physics work with the snow and everything... in that scene) so its thrown into his hand and he leans back, revealing the kobold and they rotoscoped the blade onto the belt hanger(Hero).

we have seen them rotoscope blades onto the the hero before, when hes hanging on the AT AT, when he ignites the V2 before he cuts the speeder bike in RoTJ. so we know they aren't afraid to rotoscope with out the stunt poles attached to the saber

there is then the photo we have of luke cutting off the Wampa's arm, and hes using the graflex ANH stunt. so the saber was switched out during that scene

but i was still not convinced.. i wanted more proof, so i dug some more in my mind. trying to think back of every time we see the belt hanger. there is that 1 part with the graflex on the ledge where luke is pulling himself up after vader force pushes him out the window, but its not a good enough picture. ...but here is a great one
https://i.imgur.com/R0EUgkD.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/qUzViLG.jpg

you can see the black screw good in the next one
https://i.imgur.com/jADvG6f.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/40c9ABI.jpg
To me the above photos looks like the kobold in its normal position

though i really was hoping that this could be the saber with the upside down kobold. i think its just shadowing :(

I think the theory still stays the same, during the dagobah scenes the red button went missing on the belt hanger and no one cared. when changing sets, came all new props, and the saber got its red button from some other stunt. later went into the archives, and we now have evidence of random people being allowed into the archives and doing what ever they want with the props.. so someone could have stolen the red button, broke it, or fell off and kicked under the rug..

somewhere down the road they wanted to display the last hero graflex, and did the modifications to it as it sits today..

am i 100% correct?! i have no idea, this is all just my personal belief and what i see. i have been completely wrong in life before and wouldn't be surprised if i am, but this is just my belief.

Gotta thank MS, Tom and Seth. i had a real fun time digging through my resources and examining all the pictures. also kept me busy from worrying of every day life. it was fun!

I’m so glad you posted this. I loved reading your full theory and I’ve been psyched to hear it. And glad this provided a good distraction for you!

Two questions:

1) did you see the new Dagobah pictures I posted just a little earlier? Curious about your opinion on that.

2) in regards to your theory, I love all the detail work! The only question I had was I thought the ranch saber was a Folmer with Patent while the cave snow prop we all know and love is an earlier no-patent Folmer, which would mean those two aren’t the same right? I could definitely be wrong about the ranch being a patent Folmer though, so feel free to correct where I may be wrong.


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I’m so glad you posted this. I loved reading your full theory and I’ve been psyched to hear it. And glad this provided a good distraction for you!

Two questions:

1) did you see the new Dagobah pictures I posted just a little earlier? Curious about your opinion on that.

2) in regards to your theory, I love all the detail work! The only question I had was I thought the ranch saber was a Folmer with Patent while the cave snow prop we all know and love is an earlier no-patent Folmer, which would mean those two aren’t the same right? I could definitely be wrong about the ranch being a patent Folmer though, so feel free to correct where I may be wrong.


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1) the belt hanger when luke is in his x-wing suit? if so thats the same saber as the rest of the dagobah shots. same black screw and same wrapped grip

2) i am not aware of this!!?? if it is true, and they are 2 different sabers... what the heck are the chances of all the same marks on the grips, and the black screws all matching both sabers. where did you hear the ranch saber is folmer with patent?
 
Isn’t the fact the kobold is flipped pretty conclusive that the Wampa cave is NOT the Ranch Saber? Grips I can see comiing off— but a riveted on kobold is pretty solid. There’s also belt hanger pics that show silver screws.

I love all the research, but just knowing how production goes and all the minor differences we see, I can’t shake the notion that there’s multiples of everything, especially belt hangers. I’d hazard to say that variants we consider to be the same prop could actually be duplicates they managed to make look alike.

When I can identify at least 5 different stunts in ESB alone, including the wampa cave saber, to think there’s one belt hanger just doesn’t gel in my brain.
 
I don’t know Seth, I’m pretty confident there is only 1 belt hanger. All the belt hanger scenes have the same warped number 1 grip.

I too would love to know the truth.

If that kobold was flipped we could also see if it had the chip in it, matching the chip in the wampa cave.

As for multiple stunts, I agree. It’s also pretty common on other productions to only have 1 hero, and multiple back ups

I wonder if Gino could let us know if the ranch saber was a patent or not


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1) the belt hanger when luke is in his x-wing suit? if so thats the same saber as the rest of the dagobah shots. same black screw and same wrapped grip

2) i am not aware of this!!?? if it is true, and they are 2 different sabers... what the heck are the chances of all the same marks on the grips, and the black screws all matching both sabers. where did you hear the ranch saber is folmer with patent?

2eddb9365b234e9298fee39aa6612f25.jpg


With this picture, which I was under the impression was the ranch saber but happy to
Be corrected if I’m wrong - you can clearly make out the word “Rochester” in the 1-2 o’clock position, then working counter clockwise, you can see after the clip in the 10-11 o’clock position what definitely looks like “No. [and then a Patent number].” I believe Symcha made this observation a couple years ago in a different thread.

I lined it up with my Patent folmer just as a double check and the writing/positioning is a dead match. So, if this does have a Patent number, it can’t be the same as the one in the wampa cave. However, if I am wrong and it’s not the same as the ranch saber, then there are two examples of a flipped clip.

(If you want me to really zoom in and show the detail I will happily do so, but if that’s a generally accepted fact, I won’t bother.)

I’m also with SethS and a bit leery on the one belt-hanger part. I just have trouble with that from a practicality standpoint.

It’s also my understanding that the shots of Luke in his x wing uniform on Dagobah were some of the last filmed, which may lend credence as to how the ranch saber with its flipped clip came to pass.



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https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171130/2eddb9365b234e9298fee39aa6612f25.jpg

With this picture, which I was under the impression was the ranch saber but happy to
Be corrected if I’m wrong - you can clearly make out the word “Rochester” in the 1-2 o’clock position, then working counter clockwise, you can see after the clip in the 10-11 o’clock position what definitely looks like “No. [and then a Patent number].” I believe Symcha made this observation a couple years ago in a different thread.

I lined it up with my Patent folmer just as a double check and the writing/positioning is a dead match. So, if this does have a Patent number, it can’t be the same as the one in the wampa cave. However, if I am wrong and it’s not the same as the ranch saber, then there are two examples of a flipped clip.

(If you want me to really zoom in and show the detail I will happily do so, but if that’s a generally accepted fact, I won’t bother.)

I’m also with SethS and a bit leery on the one belt-hanger part. I just have trouble with that from a practicality standpoint.

It’s also my understanding that the shots of Luke in his x wing uniform on Dagobah were some of the last filmed, which may lend credence as to how the ranch saber with its flipped clip came to pass.



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I will be damned!!

Of course you post this while I’m at work, now I have to wait all day until I get home to examine! The torture!!! The torture!! Lol

I now can’t wait to look into this more

But as for the 1 hanger, multiple films have only had one hero. Including Star Wars, I don’t see a problem with 1 hanger at all. Especially with more graflex’s becoming sacrificed into stunts.
 
It's pretty standard in any movie to have multiples of every prop. I know we can't trust Christian too much, but his last interview I saw quoted here he implied there was more than one hero Graflex made for ANH too. I'm inclined to believe it because that's production design/prop mastering 101. Beause if you just have one and it breaks, gets lost, or whatever else in the middle of production, you're screwed.

Now, that doesn't mean we don't just see one hero on screen in ANH-- it's possible back ups weren't used.

But for ESB, given how many variations we see, I just don't know. The grip evidence is compelling, I'll give you that. I just don't see a riveted kobold coming off by accident, and there'd be no reason for them to flip it otherwise.

Mostly though, the only definitive hole I can punch in your theory is that the wampa cave saber is a stunt, not a hero.

THAT SAID, given that we don't know exactly how the bladed stunts were assembled, it might be possible that the heroes and stunts were interchangeable-- as in it could be on the belt or in-hand as a hero and the blade was locked in between cuts.
 
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Hey guys, hope this helps.
I can confirm that the ranch saber is indeed one of the screen-used dagobah sabers.
Can't say for certain whether or not there was more than one, but I was able to screen match the ranch one.
You can see that the circuit board has been switched around, the kobold clip has been re-attached upside down (must have broke off at some point).
The 1/2 in tape has been replaced by the wider textured tape post filming.
The screw in the clamp lever looks to be added post filming.
Also currently is missing one of it's chrome/red buttons.
At first I thought the dark spot on the clamp was a screw, but now I think it is just a blemish/piece of crud that has been cleaned off.

esb_screenmatch.png




.
 
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