Ha, yeah. Mostly it's because my wife and I watch maybe two episodes of TV a night and then crash. So like 90-120 min. It's rare we watch a movie unless we go out. Although I watch them when I travel. Downloaded rogue 1 to watch recently on a flight, but decided to rewatch TLJ instead.
Ha, yeah. Mostly it's because my wife and I watch maybe two episodes of TV a night and then crash. So like 90-120 min. It's rare we watch a movie unless we go out. Although I watch them when I travel. Downloaded rogue 1 to watch recently on a flight, but decided to rewatch TLJ instead.
I think with Rogue One, you're dealing -- by necessity -- with somewhat less defined characters, simply because of the amount of time you have to tell your story, and how that constrains your ability to really dig in to who these people are and what makes them tick. So, instead, I chose to view the film as basically the Star Wars equivalent of The Dirty Dozen, where you get only a little about the characters during the film, with most of the focus on a few specific ones, while the rest are just kind of background material defined by what amounts to a character outline.
See, my take is they spent too much time on characters they didn't need to. K-2SO? Just right. Baze and Chirrut? Ditto. In my first-pass, chop-job "rewrite" of the story of this film, apart from excising the flashbacks, I don't introduce the defecting pilot until Cassian realizes that's who's in the next cell. Much as I love the actor, all we really need to know about Bodhi is that he's a defecting Imperial cargo pilot with important intel about the Empire's new superweapon. Galen's message should have been about 30% of its final length, and just dealt with the Death Star (though, if better written, a brief piggybacked note to Jyn that wasn't revealed until she spoke could be good). Krennic and Tarkin were fine. Vader was okay, but I'd've handled that final scene a little differently.
Which leaves Jyn and Cassian. I like Cassian. I like him even more after the one-shot comic that goes into how he found and reprogrammed K-2SO. I have a blank spot for how the revised episode would start, but by the end of the prologue he's become the focal character and the audience follows him to break Jyn out, to contact Saw, to exfiltrate or kill Galen, etc. It's his mission and Journey. Jyn's importance to the story is pretty much as it says on the tin -- she ran with Saw, so maybe she can get them in to see him, plus her dad is one of the Imperial engineers building the superweapon, hence his getting a message to Saw.
I'll use Star Wars as a counterpoint. Luke is the focal character, and everyone else is supporting that focus. Some are stronger supporting characters, some are lesser supporting characters. Han and Chewie and Leia and Obi-Wan are all supporting characters, regardless of how well-realized they are, regardless of Obi-Wan theoretically coming from his own position as focus for the earlier episodes (prior to Rick's interference). Some are much less-developed, like Wedge and Biggs and Owen and Beru. Them not all being the focal character isn't a diminishment or a bad thing. But putting more of the weight of the plot on them than they should bear usually is.
And I loved the fact that it was a TPK. I mean, it would've been nice to see maybe a couple survive, but I was perfectly fine with the TPK quality and the high number of casualties. I like that it showed the cost of the war, and that the Rebels didn't always win with a slam-dunk and a happy ending.
I don't object to them en masse. They're fine if it devolves organically from the plot. The main characters' deaths in R1, though, felt too deliberate and contrived, for the lazy reasons given way back when it came out: "Well, we don't see them in Star Wars, so they must have all died." Not necessarily, they mustn't. K-2SO had a good and poignant "death". Chirrut's was a good death also, though I would have preferred slightly less contrived.
My thumbnail of a revised ending:
Cassian, as part of who he's become by the end of his arc, sacrifices himself to get Jyn and the plans out. She meets up with a grieving Baze. The two of them plus Bodhi get Chirrut's body on the shuttle. Just before they button up to lift off, another security droid steps out of the smoke -- carrying Cassian's body under one arm. It's the one K-2SO jacked into to get the installation floor plan. They make it out as the battle rages, but Vader spots them and orders pursuit. They jump to a randomly-selected Rebel waypoint -- deep-space rendezvous points for transferring arms or supplies, for reorienting for another jump to throw off potential pursuit, etc. They're coming about to leave on another vector when the Devastator drops out of lightspeed behind them and disables their ship. They pick up another vessel at extreme range, which their IFF flags as friendly. In desperation, they send off the Death Star plans in several compressed comm bursts. The other ship jumps to lightspeed moments later and the Devastator leaves them to pursue.
Between Bodhi and K-2SO, they get the ship running again. Bodhi wants to head to the Rebel base. Jyn wants nothing to do with them after "they" (really, just one man) ordered her father's execution. Baze feels more connection to her personally than them collectively, so he sides with her, as does K-2SO. Bodhi offers to drop them wherever they want, and K-2SO gives Bodhi the location of the Rebel base as thanks. Bodhi becomes a transport pilot for the Rebellion, and is always in some other ship or off on some other mission when the camera's following Luke. Jyn, Baze, and K-2SO go off and have their own adventures somewhere away from active involvement in the Rebellion. It's still a big galaxy, after all...
And I'm gonna go on record and say that I think it actually has a better space battle than ROTJ.
Oh, much. One of the things I like about AdiWan's treatment of ANH is fleshing out the Rebel attack force to actually have "thirty Rebel ships", per dialogue. The RotJ battle has bugged me for years. They filmed the pilots from multiple angles saying the same lines or variations on them, reacting to things, etc., then dropped them in almost at random to fill out the shot list. So we ended up with a lot of iffy things. Gray Leader is also apparently Red Two (in a Y-Wing). Red Three is apparently an A-Wing. So does this mean Red Group is a mixed unit now, instead of all X-Wings? Why did the handful of B-Wings vanish after initial approach? Were there any other ships in Gold Group besides the Falcon? When Lando calls for all remaining ships of Red and Gold to follow him in, the result is two X-Wings, two A-Wings, and a Y-Wing. For that matter, the fleet itself is... A couple Mon Cal cruisers, a couple Nebulon-B frigates, 3 corvettes, 4 transports, a handful of harder-to-identify ships, and something around 23 fighters.
And I've never been able to unsee the extra eight TIE Fighters blink into the "fighters coming in" shot out the Falcon's cockpit.
It was definitely a technical accomplishment for its day, but of all the things that needed to be addressed in the Special Editions, that space battle is one.
I saw Rogue One. It was ok. It had some fun moments and some cool space battles, something lacking in the Star Wars films since 1983. Every other major battle has been in atmosphere or on the ground in the other movies since. I didn't care about the characters at all. Especially Jyn. We knew more about her father than we knew about her and she was flat and one note. That's not a knock against Felicity Jones, I think it had more to do with the way her character was written and the way Gareth Edwards directed her. I don;t need to know every last detail of a character to enjoy a movie. I just want someone I can relate to or care about and I had neither reaction to anyone I saw on screen in this adventure.
Ultimately it was an unnecessary movie and didn't add much to the overall story of Star Wars. We knew going in that the Rebels would succeed. I always assumed the supposed flaw of the Death Star having a small thermal exhaust port had more to do with arrogance than it being intentionally put there by a mole who was secretly against the Empire. Plus you figure that with even a cursory knowledge of electronics or engineering that an entire space station the size of a moon would generate a crap ton of heat and you need to dissipate that heat somehow. It was stated in ANH that it was Ray shielded and the Empire didn't consider it to be a problem. I chalked that up to hubris and part of what made Luke's final shot so spectacular.
I get that Lucasfilm was taking a gamble on this new format with the anthology films. I just hope that it won't be long before they start branching out enough where they aren't telling stories of characters or events we know inside and out. I don't need constant references to known pieces of the series. I want to see something new.
Those things being said, I did enjoy the dog fights and though the Vader showdown at the end was total unabashed fan service, it was a lot of fun to watch that! But the few things I did enjoy about it never compelled me enough to watch it again or even buy it. To be honest I forgot a lot of what happened in it other than everyone died at the end.
I saw Rogue One. It was ok. It had some fun moments and some cool space battles, something lacking in the Star Wars films since 1983. Every other major battle has been in atmosphere or on the ground in the other movies since. I didn't care about the characters at all. Especially Jyn. We knew more about her father than we knew about her and she was flat and one note. That's not a knock against Felicity Jones, I think it had more to do with the way her character was written and the way Gareth Edwards directed her. I don;t need to know every last detail of a character to enjoy a movie. I just want someone I can relate to or care about and I neither reaction to anyone I saw on screen in this adventure.
Ultimately it was an unnecessary movie and didn't add much to the overall story of Star Wars. We knew going in that the Rebels would succeed. I always assumed the supposed flaw of the Death Star having a small thermal exhaust port had more to do with arrogance than it being intentionally put there by a mole who was secretly against the Empire. Plus you figure that with even a cursory knowledge of electronics or engineering that an entire space station the size of a moon would generate a crap ton of heat and you need to dissipate that heat somehow. It was stated in ANH that it was Ray shielded and the Empire didn't consider it to be a problem. I chalked that up to hubris and part of what made Luke's final shot so spectacular.
I get that Lucasfilm was taking a gamble on this new format with the anthology films. I just hope that it won't be long before they start branching out enough where they aren't telling stories of characters or events we know inside and out. I don't need constant references to known pieces of the series. I want to see something new.
Those things being said, I did enjoy the dog fights and though the Vader showdown at the end was total unabashed fan service, it was a lot of fun to watch that!
I get that Lucasfilm was taking a gamble on this new format with the anthology films. I just hope that it won't be long before they start branching out enough where they aren't telling stories of characters or events we know inside and out. I don't need constant references to known pieces of the series. I want to see something new.
This is basically my view of the anthology films so far (and the seemingly inevitable "Obi-Wan" film). I get that you want to launch new characters on the backs of familiar material. But my hope is that they eventually branch out into films that aren't relying on existing characters or known events to pull audiences in. I'm looking forward to where the setting itself is the draw, not the character or the event. For me, that's the big appeal of Star Wars at this point. I love the old stuff, but it's ultimately the setting that most grabs me with the new films. I like the new characters, but I'm constantly excited for new stuff in the setting.
Like, I'm a fan of the old West End Games Star Wars RPG. I love the worldbuilding they did. I love the idea of having adventures in the Star Wars universe, but with different characters than the "heroes of Yavin." That's basically what I'd like to see from the anthology films. One of the things I really disliked about the Prequels was the "fishbowl universe" George alluded to, what with Chewie being Yoda's roommate back in college, and Anakin building C-3PO, and Obi-Wan having met R2-D2 decades before ANH, and blah blah blah. I hated that stuff because it shrank the universe to the size of a thimble. I hated the implication that Greedo grew up with Anakin as a kid and whatnot (although I think that was cut later). All that stuff takes this vast, potentially varied universe, full of different creatures and people and places and technology, and turns it into something smaller than most people's high school graduation classes.
So, I'm hoping that, as more anthology films come out, they will use them as vehicles to tell adventures with new characters, independent of the OT material we already know. Like, tell a story involving Emilia Clarke's character or something. Tell a story about a guy who worked some jobs with Woody Harrelson's character. Tell the story of the Tierfon Yellow Aces, or Delta Squad's Republic Commandos, or whatever. Or just do completely new characters in different settings, but set during familiar time frames, if not necessarily familiar events. I don't need to see the Rebel scouts find the Hoth base location, but I wouldn't mind a film about Rebel scouts in general.
This is one of the reasons I liked Rogue One. Although I knew it'd be about the Death Star plans, I also liked the different places we visited and the different people we met in the films. I want more of that!
I saw Rogue One. It was ok. It had some fun moments and some cool space battles, something lacking in the Star Wars films since 1983. Every other major battle has been in atmosphere or on the ground in the other movies since. I didn't care about the characters at all. Especially Jyn. We knew more about her father than we knew about her and she was flat and one note. That's not a knock against Felicity Jones, I think it had more to do with the way her character was written and the way Gareth Edwards directed her. I don;t need to know every last detail of a character to enjoy a movie. I just want someone I can relate to or care about and I had neither reaction to anyone I saw on screen in this adventure.
Ultimately it was an unnecessary movie and didn't add much to the overall story of Star Wars. We knew going in that the Rebels would succeed. I always assumed the supposed flaw of the Death Star having a small thermal exhaust port had more to do with arrogance than it being intentionally put there by a mole who was secretly against the Empire. Plus you figure that with even a cursory knowledge of electronics or engineering that an entire space station the size of a moon would generate a crap ton of heat and you need to dissipate that heat somehow. It was stated in ANH that it was Ray shielded and the Empire didn't consider it to be a problem. I chalked that up to hubris and part of what made Luke's final shot so spectacular.
I get that Lucasfilm was taking a gamble on this new format with the anthology films. I just hope that it won't be long before they start branching out enough where they aren't telling stories of characters or events we know inside and out. I don't need constant references to known pieces of the series. I want to see something new.
Those things being said, I did enjoy the dog fights and though the Vader showdown at the end was total unabashed fan service, it was a lot of fun to watch that! But the few things I did enjoy about it never compelled me enough to watch it again or even buy it. To be honest I forgot a lot of what happened in it other than everyone died at the end.
This is exactly how I feel about it too. Very well said. A big part of Star Wars for me has always been interesting characters, and there isn't a single one in RO imo. I saw it a few times in theaters and did buy it on Blu-Ray, but have only watched it once at home. I haven't had any desire to revisit the whole movie, maybe just the last 40 minutes or so.
I would be totally on board for that. Like a Squad of super commandos on an important mission. For the record I didn't hate rogue one, I just wasn't grabbed by it.
I would be totally on board for that. Like a Squad of super commandos on an important mission. For the record I didn't hate rogue one, I just wasn't grabbed by it.
I find it interesting people failed to connect with any of these characters. I found them engaging simply because they were so different from any of the films that came before. From the dark of Cassian murdering a man to the fun of Baze and Chuirut I thought it offered a wide variety and palate of characters.
I find it interesting people failed to connect with any of these characters. I found them engaging simply because they were so different from any of the films that came before. From the dark of Cassian murdering a man to the fun of Baze and Chuirut I thought it offered a wide variety and palate of characters.
I related to the characters moderately well, but I can see the issues people have with it. I think they did a good job creating character traits that weren't present prior to R1, but they could have done a bit more to foster those traits. Cassian is probably my favorite because he flirts with "the grey" (not the Liam Neeson movie) the most. But I could see how people could see his progression as somewhat rushed. For me, it slammed me in the feels during his first death/ fake-out.
I think the issue with the characters is that, because the film is basically an ensemble piece, you end up not having as much time to spend with any single character other than Jyn. As a result, you don't really get the depth that you do with her. Cassian probably comes closest to it, but the rest are more thinly drawn by necessity; there just isn't time to delve into their backstories, what makes them tick, etc. It's like a lot of war movies in that respect: you have a platoon of characters, several of whom are ancillary, others who are a little closer to the central character(s), and then you have the central character(s). For the ancillaries and the "a little closer" characters, mostly you're getting kind of one-note performances. The actors themselves may develop more of a backstory to help inform their portrayal, but there's less ability for them to actually convey that, because they usually don't have dialogue that allows them to do so.
I think the issue with the characters is that, because the film is basically an ensemble piece, you end up not having as much time to spend with any single character other than Jyn. As a result, you don't really get the depth that you do with her. Cassian probably comes closest to it, but the rest are more thinly drawn by necessity; there just isn't time to delve into their backstories, what makes them tick, etc. It's like a lot of war movies in that respect: you have a platoon of characters, several of whom are ancillary, others who are a little closer to the central character(s), and then you have the central character(s). For the ancillaries and the "a little closer" characters, mostly you're getting kind of one-note performances. The actors themselves may develop more of a backstory to help inform their portrayal, but there's less ability for them to actually convey that, because they usually don't have dialogue that allows them to do so.
I think the issue with the characters is that, because the film is basically an ensemble piece, you end up not having as much time to spend with any single character other than Jyn. As a result, you don't really get the depth that you do with her.
When I talk about undeveloped characters in R1, it is her I am almost exclusively talking about. The film opens with her father being kidnapped as she watches and runs away. But I don't know who TF she is. And consequently, I don't give AF about her. And then she has this relationship with Forest Whitaker that goes largely unexplained.
I've heard Disney apologists on this site say, "Oh, well, they needed to keep the movie from getting too long, so they jumped right into the kidnapping, and also had to leave a lot of Whitaker's story on the cutting room floor.". Well, that was dumb, because the movie got off to a terrible start, and I never gave AF about Jyn.
Perhaps they should've shown us her share some tender moments with her father before he was taken, and perhaps we should've seen more of her relationship with Whitaker, the man who raised her. Perhaps to find room for those character developments, they could've cut out that ridiculous protracted part where the rebels are searching for an outlet in the middle of a battle zone on Scarif.
Perhaps they should've shown us her share some tender moments with her father before he was taken, and perhaps we should've seen more of her relationship with Whitaker, the man who raised her.
Almost every scene in Rogue One went by so fast that I found no moment to breathe and relax. I really wanted to like the characters, but there was very little character-building or other opportunities to get to know them. It gave me a much greater appreciation for slow moments like the holochess/training remote scene aboard the Falcon in ANH.
I was hoping there would be an extended version of the film with some slower scenes added, but clearly that won't ever happen. I thought the designs, the sets, the look, and the feeling of the Star Wars universe was all there, but everything progressed far too quickly. I see R1 as the most overly-caffienated Star Wars movie in the series.
Almost every scene in Rogue One went by so fast that I found no moment to breathe and relax. I really wanted to like the characters, but there was very little character-building or other opportunities to get to know them. It gave me a much greater appreciation for slow moments like the holochess/training remote scene aboard the Falcon in ANH.
Think back to the pain and horror we felt when Luke arrived at his homestead, to find his murdered Aunt and Uncle. It was as if we were there with him in the speeder, getting closer and closer, as we watched the grisly scene slowly come into focus. Forty-one years later, and I get goosebumps and a sick feeling in my stomach each time I watch it, or even just hear the music from the scene.
Now THAT is the reward a filmmaker gets, for developing characters, and making us give AF about what happens to them.
I'm not suggesting R1 should've devoted as much time to Jyn and her parents as George did with Luke interacting with his loving, if stern, guardians. But *something* of Galen and his daughter before his kidnapping would've gone a long way to make me care about her.
Of course, this is just one of myriad low-SWIQ elements plaguing Rogue One.
