Rogue One: A Star Wars Story (Post-release)

karmajay said:
I need to check the picture of the Profundity in the visual dictionary again but it makes sense that any shuttle bays or entrances would be in the same area as the Tantive dock. There would not be any shuttle entrance near the bridge. Vader steps onto the ship and sees a bunch of rebels. Vader does not ask questions he just starts doing a typical Vader and just starts killing everyone in his path.
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I like this explanation.

Additionally Vader has some clearavoyance thru the Force. He may have forseen some disturbance (earlier meditation perhaps) surrounding a certain counselors ship...

...which also happened to have his daughter on board! DUH, DUH, DAAAAH!

This is fun ret-conning actually. As when Lucas originally wrote the screenplay Leia wasn't Luke's sister yet :)
 
The whole point of Vader taking the Blockade Runner was not only to recover the plans but to capture and discover who was involved in the Rebel Alliance, which from the Empires point of view had gone from being a small band of terrorists to suddenly this huge multi system planetary strike force capable of launching a large scale attack directly on an imperial stronghold.
Therefore taking prisoners and establishing who in the Senate was exactly involved in it was as critical to Vader as getting the plans back.
He only knew that transmissions were made to the capital ship NOT where abouts they were recieved. Given that the Blockade Runner was actually on board the larger craft as it recieved the transmissions ,whats the difference?
His first statemant in ANH to that Rebel Officer is "Where are those transmissions you intercepted? What have you done with the plans?".
Afterall he doesn't see the plans being carried, just the Rebel soldiers racing somewhere so he follows ,attacks and kills them. The only hint he might have got is where the last man screams "Take it " through the crack in the door and he has his hand well passed the otherside of the door as Vader runs him through with the lightsabre.....
Given that Princess Leia is already known to the Empire to be politically active often against many of their actions then his next phrase is totally in keeping with that so, he doesn't muck about with her denial she didn't actually take part in the attack and but was just a diplomatic impartial observer caught up in it because the ship was clearly still in the hold of the capital craft before it ran for it so the conversation goes:
Leia : "Darth Vader. Only you could be so bold. The Imperial Senate will not sit still for this. When they here you attacked a diplomatic-"
Vader: "Don't act so surprised your highness. You weren't on any mercy mission this time.Several transmissions were beamed to this ship by Rebel spies.I want to know what happened to the plans they sent you."
I really don't have much of a problem with this . He could have said "passed" but he didn't truly see that. But he immediately knows that she must have physically hid the plans in the esacpe pod Its only later that the stormtroopers discover there were droids put in the pod that may have been carrying them.
 
CutThumb said:
The whole point of Vader taking the Blockade Runner was not only to recover the plans but to capture and discover who was involved in the Rebel Alliance, which from the Empires point of view had gone from being a small band of terrorists to suddenly this huge multi system planetary strike force capable of launching a large scale attack directly on an imperial stronghold.
Therefore taking prisoners and establishing who in the Senate was exactly involved in it was as critical to Vader as getting the plans back.
He only knew that transmissions were made to the capital ship NOT where abouts they were recieved. Given that the Blockade Runner was actually on board the larger craft as it recieved the transmissions ,whats the difference?
His first statemant in ANH to that Rebel Officer is "Where are those transmissions you intercepted? What have you done with the plans?".
Afterall he doesn't see the plans being carried, just the Rebel soldiers racing somewhere so he follows ,attacks and kills them. The only hint he might have got is where the last man screams "Take it " through the crack in the door and he has his hand well passed the otherside of the door as Vader runs him through with the lightsabre.....
Given that Princess Leia is already known to the Empire to be politically active often against many of their actions then his next phrase is totally in keeping with that so, he doesn't muck about with her denial she didn't actually take part in the attack and but was just a diplomatic impartial observer caught up in it because the ship was clearly still in the hold of the capital craft before it ran for it so the conversation goes:
Leia : "Darth Vader. Only you could be so bold. The Imperial Senate will not sit still for this. When they here you attacked a diplomatic-"
Vader: "Don't act so surprised your highness. You weren't on any mercy mission this time.Several transmissions were beamed to this ship by Rebel spies.I want to know what happened to the plans they sent you."
I really don't have much of a problem with this . He could have said "passed" but he didn't truly see that. But he immediately knows that she must have physically hid the plans in the esacpe pod Its only later that the stormtroopers discover there were droids put in the pod that may have been carrying them.
Click to expand...

Again, this all seems like a lot of after-the-fact tapdancing to explain why, no, no, the scene still works. I mean, yeah, it kinda mostly sorta works, but it requires the audience to fill in a lot of blanks.

"Oh, well, Vader was chasing the guy, but he didn't SEE him hand the tape over, so that's why he asks the question."

Well, why was he chasing the guy on that ship, instead of storming the bridge?

"Oh, um, because he's looking for who's in the alliance because now they seem like a real threat."

Really? Then, again, why isn't he on the bridge? Why is he going after a random ship docked with the bigger ship? It's not like the random ship is an escape pod, and he has no reason to believe "Ah, THIS ship MUST contain the true leaders!"

So, if he doesn't know who's on the ship, and he doesn't know the plans are there, why's he bothering? And if he does know who's on the ship or did see the plans get handed over, then his line makes a lot less sense.


The answer to this is pretty simple:

These scenes were added because they were cool, and the people making the film were less concerned with fitting them into the continuity than folks like us are. Hidalgo & Co. vetted them to make sure they weren't explicitly contradictory, and stopped there. Everything else is a justification invented to excuse away the questions that naturally follow when trying to fit two pieces together in the puzzle that don't...quite....fit. They're close, but not exact.

And the thing is, they could've been exact. They could've been a perfect fit. Just not in a way that would've necessarily looked good or worked well within the context of the movie.

So, we're left to invent justifications for all of this stuff. It's ok. It doesn't HAVE to all fit. But...it doesn't all fit, and claiming otherwise strikes me as silly. Just accept that it doesn't fit and shrug. "Yeah. It doesn't quite fit, but it sure looked cool." That's your answer.

I would've liked a perfect fit, but I don't see how it could've happened while retaining the overall effect of the film, and in the end, the fact that it doesn't perfectly fit doesn't seriously diminish my overall enjoyment of the film. It's just a nagging little detail in an otherwise good movie. It's not like "Wait, WTF?! Now the Force is mitochondria?!?!?!" or "Hang on a minute, when they first met in the originals, they acted like they didn't know each other, but now it's clear that they did! What the hell?!" There are, put simply, waaaaaay worse transgressions against continuity than this.

I just don't think it should be excused with all of the backpedaling. Admit that it's not perfect, and move on. Hidalgo's job is, I suppose, to invent such an explanation to placate the people who can be placated by such a "canonical" answer, but it's still not obvious from the film if all you do is watch it. You still have to explain it away somehow; the film alone doesn't take care of that for you by showing you a perfectly seamless story.
 
It's basically what I'm saying: it's a confusing situation that is made a bit more confusing when you consider Vader and Leia's dialogue in the opening scenes of ANH, and the film doesn't really explain it effectively. We are left to invent an explanation for the situation, which is not evident in the film itself. That, to me, is a flaw. But I agree that it's the kind of thing only the hardcore fans will wonder about, while everyone else is just marveling at Vader kicking ass (which WAS awesome) and jazzed to see the Tantive IV (if they recognize it at all).

This happens in films, especially those which are prequels that are trying to fill in gaps in continuity. Star Wars has suffered from this in the past, and Hidalgo has usually been the guy to try to provide an explanation for what it's not just a mistake, and still works. He's good at what he does, but at the end of the day, he's limited by what's on the screen.

I find his explanation to be...not that convincing, but the underlying problem itself isn't that big a deal to me. It's certainly less of a problem to me than, say, if Yoda had said in ESB "Know nothing of wookiees do I" and then ROTS showed him as one of the main generals on Kashyyk. THAT would've required the kind of explaining away that one hires a Press Secretary for. ;)


To be clear: I don't think the story group screwed up here. I think the filmmakers prioritized the coolness of the sequences and the pacing of the film over a perfect continuity fit, and the story group didn't see anything that explicitly violated established continuity, even if it didn't fit perfectly. I doubt absolute perfection is ALWAYS the goal, especially if it comes at the cost of making an entertaining film. There's a range within which the films have to operate. Like, they can't say "We're gonna kill Han Solo in the Young Han Solo Chronicles movie, and then the Han Solo we all know will be a CLONE!!!" But they can do something like say "Han Solo started out as a cheerful, upbeat guy who wanted to help everyone, and this movie shows how he became a cynical gunslinger."
 
Solo4114 said:
It's basically what I'm saying: it's a confusing situation that is made a bit more confusing when you consider Vader and Leia's dialogue in the opening scenes of ANH, and the film doesn't really explain it effectively. We are left to invent an explanation for the situation, which is not evident in the film itself. That, to me, is a flaw. But I agree that it's the kind of thing only the hardcore fans will wonder about, while everyone else is just marveling at Vader kicking ass (which WAS awesome) and jazzed to see the Tantive IV (if they recognize it at all).

This happens in films, especially those which are prequels that are trying to fill in gaps in continuity. Star Wars has suffered from this in the past, and Hidalgo has usually been the guy to try to provide an explanation for what it's not just a mistake, and still works. He's good at what he does, but at the end of the day, he's limited by what's on the screen.

I find his explanation to be...not that convincing, but the underlying problem itself isn't that big a deal to me. It's certainly less of a problem to me than, say, if Yoda had said in ESB "Know nothing of wookiees do I" and then ROTS showed him as one of the main generals on Kashyyk. THAT would've required the kind of explaining away that one hires a Press Secretary for. ;)


To be clear: I don't think the story group screwed up here. I think the filmmakers prioritized the coolness of the sequences and the pacing of the film over a perfect continuity fit, and the story group didn't see anything that explicitly violated established continuity, even if it didn't fit perfectly. I doubt absolute perfection is ALWAYS the goal, especially if it comes at the cost of making an entertaining film. There's a range within which the films have to operate. Like, they can't say "We're gonna kill Han Solo in the Young Han Solo Chronicles movie, and then the Han Solo we all know will be a CLONE!!!" But they can do something like say "Han Solo started out as a cheerful, upbeat guy who wanted to help everyone, and this movie shows how he became a cynical gunslinger."
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I have to say I'm rather enjoying watching you struggle with this. :)
 
I said this way earlier in the thread, but I think the transmission was beamed to the entire fleet to make sure someone got it. So technically the plans were beamed to the ship. Although Tantive IV was inside another ship so maybe that's why they had to have a hard copy. Vader just assumed the plans were beamed to it as well.
 
The transmission had to be received by more than one ship, Jyn says she told the entire galaxy the flaw, and the fleet was just above where the transmission was made. Vader chased after whichever ships were still in sight, killing the soldiers who may he protecting the computer storage areas. He didn't have to know the rebel had the plans on a disc, he just had to know the plans were beamed to the fleet and they went back to the hidden base. Find the loose ends on which ships didnt make the jump with the rest, kill the fighters and interrogate the big wigs of the ship. If they can't find the plans, best next move is to blow up the base before they blow up the Death Star. Which is the plan when they plant the homing device in the Falcon and find Yavin.

Tarkin mentions "data tapes" while Vader says "beamed transmissions." All the Empire knows is someone snuck into one hidden (Imperial) base, stole sensitive information, and fled to another hidden (Rebel) base and they need to use as much accusations as they can to get information. The main goal is to destroy each other, before the other does. The Alliance still has the upper hand and that's why they need to destroy the Rebel Base. Small details said can be their own iteration if the whole thing, I doubt they had a revised story to tell everyone while searching for plans and rebels. A few lines don't make a difference when the villains have a background of lies, abandonment, and a little thing called Order 66.

Leia saying she is going to Alderaan does makes sense, Bail was on his way to warn them of the Empire, he wanted to use diplomacy and ask for peace, Leia being on her way to join him is totally believeable. Being fired upon out of nowhere does call for return fire, in self defense against an Imperial ship. Leia may be in a diplomatic mission, but she does need protection and armed forces at her side at all times.
 
CutThumb said:
The whole point of Vader taking the Blockade Runner was not only to recover the plans but to ....
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[strike]The point of Vader taking the Blockade Runner was so to show Vader kick ass.[/strike]

Edit: I misunderstood this part. I'm tired in the head and mistook this discussion to be about Rogue One.
 
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Solo4114 said:
You guys are looking at this from a post hoc perspective, though. I mean, yes, you can view the events on screen "from a certain point of view" that makes the words Vader says and Leia's defiance still make sense. Or, put another way, it does not directly contradict anything...
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Victor3 said:
...But, Leia was always full of it with the "This is a diplomatic mission..." bit - they were already firing back at the Star Destroyer!...
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It might just be my own personal certain point of view, but with or without the events in Rogue One I agree with Victor. Leia's defiance was the only option she had available to her at that moment--she knew she was lying, Vader knew she was lying, the rebel down the corridor dying from a blaster wound knew she was lying, but as long as she doesn't admit to being part of the rebel alliance the game is still in play. It's like someone being accused of murder--as long as they never actually admit to committing the crime there's still a chance they might get away with it. Deny, deny, deny; it's one of the oldest tricks in the book.
 
Darth Lars- Vader doesn't put a foot on the Blockade Runner until ANH so the rest of your statement is redundant as regards Rogue One (and ANH).
Vader boards a crippled capital ship, where the command bridge on the stem has been disabled, looking for survivors to kill or capture to retrieve the data files. The audience doesn't need to see him working through the entire hull.
All they need to see is the last remaining rebel race to download the transmissions on to a hard copy , then desparately flee his terrible onslaught as they are discovered making their escape to the Blockade Runner. The moment the lights goes out before he is reveiled,its fairly obvious to most that his troops have powered the ship down to prevent any further possiblity of the crew escaping. The fact that they don't know the BR is hiding in the launch bay (and niether do the audience at that moment until it is launched and suddenly drops way from view) works very well.
Solo 4114- I am providing no complicated tap dancing back tracking explanation.
These are the scenes frame for frame from the end of RO and the beginning of ANH. Quoted out of context the phrases may seem clumsy, but within the narrative events of the film they work well. Even the rebel officer who passes the hard data file to Leia at the end of RO says "Your Highness the transmission we recieved" before handing it to her. He doesn't need to expalin the origin ,because we already know from the film. I watched ANH immediately after RO and it felt like a neat and understandable fit.
And I suspect it still will a couple of weeks from now when I watch it again.
Where I can find some faults with RO ,the events leading up to that ending were not one of them. Slightly disorientating because of the trailer missing scenes perhaps but thats because of what I had scripted in my head.
But incomparison to the disaster many predicted this was believe to be because of the reshooting, it most definitely was not. It was a proper , rather reverant callback to the SWOT period, which did hugely well with the bulk of the fans and ordinary cinema viewers. Parts of it felt a little rushed and a little uneven, but you can say that about every SW film, to a lesser (and much greatter )degree.
 
Again, this all seems like a lot of after-the-fact tapdancing to explain why, no, no, the scene still works. I mean, yeah, it kinda mostly sorta works, but it requires the audience to fill in a lot of blanks.
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To me, it seems most of these types of discussions stem from people thinking way to hard about a scene after the fact and trying to pick apart why something doesn't work.

Like, I could have a discussion about why it is impossible that R2 fixes C3PO but they don't show him connecting the thousands of wires inside him in ESB. Did I question it during the scene? No. Did it serve the world and the story? Yes.

Same with the scene we are talking about. I can't imagine many people were thinking about...er...whatever exact comment started this whole discussion while in the movie theater watching the scene.
 
For me, the entire way they did rogue one was sort of arrogant. They call it a stand alone film, when in fact they attempted to extend ANH by 2 hours. And ANH is arguably one of the greatest films of all time.

It's basically fan-fic.

So if that were the way they were going to go about it, then they should have started at the beginning of ANH and worked backwards

But they didn't. The biggest plot hole comes when you try to connect the final scene of this movie with the first scene in the next.

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