Rogue One: A Star Wars Story (Post-release)

I do have to hand it to Gareth Edwards though. He did a helluva better job than I would have considering thats only his 3rd freaking movie...

astroboy said:

It was established in the clone wars that Skywalker was the general who always led his clones into battle from the front. That was why his 501st were so devoted to him.

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Yes, but that was before Kenobi turned him into the Six Million Dollar Sith. His artificial limbs and being 20 years older are bound to slow him down a bit regardless of his Force abilities.

AJTaliesen said:

Leia was a little off, but I wonder how much of the Tarkin criticism is expectation. Did some go in knowing he would be in there and look specifically for cg tells?

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Obviously I can't speak for anyone else, but I went into Rogue One having avoided as much information as possible. I watched one of the trailers once just to get a "feel" for it, but otherwise entered the theater spoiler-free so I had no idea Tarkin would be in the movie.

That being said, I've been interested in special effects (including make-ups and costumes) for as long as I can remember. In my 55 years I've seen a lot of movies and have watched a lot of television, so I've had a lot of opportunities to see both practical and computer generated effects that were good, bad, and anywhere in-between from every decade of movie making. Tarkin and Leia in Rogue One weren't 100% convincing to me, but they were very well done.

squirk said:

I didn't mean to suggest that Chirrut was delusional or fooling himself. There seems to be a disconnect between the advance promotional material and the dialogue of the film re: Chirrut.

Everything I read ahead of time gave me (what I thought was) a pretty clear impression that there were no Jedi - more specifically, no Force-users in this film (except Vader, of course). That all these characters were (for lack of a better phrase) "ordinary folk", and we were seeing the war through that non-Force-user lens. And unless the Databank is playing cagey with their wording, when they say Chirrut "has no Force abilities" - period - then I am left thinking that he's not Force-sensitive, but rather a fervent devotee of the Force.

But then his quote from Eadu seems to contradict that.

So I see four possibilities:

1.) He is Force-sensitive, with the ability to sense the Force but just cannot use it. If so, odd that the databank would leave that latter part out.
2.) He is FS and could have used the Force, but was never picked up by the Jedi as a child and trained.
3.) He is FS and does use the Force through his fighting skills.
4.) He is not FS, and just a fervent Force devotee who also happened to hone his other senses (without a Force-assist) to compensate for his blindness, á la the martial art movie archetype. And maybe he can't sense the Force directly, but has learned to pick up cues from his environment when the Force is or has been "in action" nearby. Like, he can sense everything interacting with the Force, like water reacts when a ship moves through it. Even though Chirrut can't see the ship, he can tell its size, length, speed, etc. by the wake it leaves in the water.

I am cool with any of the above, but I am guessing that the canon answer is #4.

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I had responded to someone else's post about this in this thread with a long explanation, but I'll give you the short one based on cannon, novels, and guidebooks. Chirrut is a Force Sensitive, not a force user. Force sensitives can still see and feel the force around them, force users can see and feel the force around them, but can actually use the force when they want. Some "Force Sensitive" were still employed by the Jedi as Temple guards, I.e. Baze and Chirrut both being Temple guards on Jedha, and Chirrut actually commenting at one point that Baze used to be their most devoted guard. So they can both see and feel the force, and they understand how it works, but they can not impose their will on the force, or get it to bend to their wills like a force user can.


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The CGI animators can't win once the audience knows a human face is CGI.

Disney could have publicly said that Leia would be CGI in this movie but secretly used a 1977 shot. People would have ripped apart the "bad CGI" just as much for one thing or another.


If we could see the new CGI Leia shot compared next to a real frame of ANH, I wouldn't be surprised if the makeup job looked more overdone in the real footage.




As for Tarkin - see if you can find anyone who noticed that he was CGI and didn't already know that walking in.

The CGI Tarkin probably got as much screen time & revealing shots in RO as he did in ANH. That is what I call passing the test.

Here's my theory for what happened with the reshoots - in the first cut, after retrieving the plans from the citadel, Jyn, Cassian et al leave via the train station make a mad dash across the beach to reach the antenna/comms tower you can see in this shot for the first trailer. Due to whatever reasons (editing, pacing, effects budget?) they decided to relocate the antenna to the top of the citadel and have Jyn and Cassian get there from the inside. All that would mean would be to reshoot the scenes in the vault (with K2-SO's death added) and have them climb to the top. Then I'm sure those three could be edited out of Chirrut and Baze's beach scenes. I think that the endgame with Krennic trying to stop Jyn at the top would have been the same (the shot from the trailer of Krennic walking through the shallows would have been him approaching the external comms tower.

batguy said:

As for Tarkin - see if you can find anyone who noticed that he was CGI and didn't already know that walking in.

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Seeing as how Peter Cushing has been dead for over 20 years, I think we all knew he was CGI the second we laid eyes on him.

But seriously, I think you are right - if someone had never seen ANH, and had no idea who Peter Cushing was or what he looked like, the CGI would not have stood out as much. I still think people would have been able to tell there was some computer wizardry in play, but mentally, they would not be comparing/contrasting what they saw on-screen in R1 with what they saw in ANH.

I am guessing that the filmmakers decided the uncanny valley was worth the risk in order to make R1 flow into ANH as seamlessly as possible. Using actors who just resembled Cushing and Fisher, only to have the real Cushing and Fisher appear in the film that's supposed to take place mere hours later, might have disrupted the flow more than the uncanny valley would, and I agree.

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rchrz60 said:

I had responded to someone else's post about this in this thread with a long explanation, but I'll give you the short one based on cannon, novels, and guidebooks. Chirrut is a Force Sensitive, not a force user. Force sensitives can still see and feel the force around them, force users can see and feel the force around them, but can actually use the force when they want. Some "Force Sensitive" were still employed by the Jedi as Temple guards, I.e. Baze and Chirrut both being Temple guards on Jedha, and Chirrut actually commenting at one point that Baze used to be their most devoted guard. So they can both see and feel the force, and they understand how it works, but they can not impose their will on the force, or get it to bend to their wills like a force user can.


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Thanks! Where'd you find that info?

Treadwell said:

I think it's up to viewer interpretation whether the Force was making blaster bolts miss him, or if he was just lucky. But the "when a man is about to kill" thing shows definite Force sensitivity, IMO.

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I agree - the quote throws off the whole idea that he's not FS at all. Sounds like rchrz60 found some outside material that confirms #1 is the correct answer. I find it weird that the Databank didn't more accurately describe Chirrut's Force sensitivity, but then again, that's typical of the Databank.

batguy said:

As for Tarkin - see if you can find anyone who noticed that he was CGI and didn't already know that walking in.

The CGI Tarkin probably got as much screen time & revealing shots in RO as he did in ANH. That is what I call passing the test.

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I had no idea there would be a cgi Tarkin, but I immediately got the video game feeling when I saw him. At times it started to pass, but every time he and Krennic had a shot/reverse-shot scene, it became very noticeable again.

. He would have been a kid or maybe a baby (not 100% sure) around the fall of the Jedi.

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He is 52 in the movie (visual dictionary) so he defintiely was an adult during the Clone Wars.

Well aside from the Kyber she wears around her neck, and telling Jyn to trust in the Force, in Catalyst we get her thoughts about the Force and the Jedi. She seems very connected.

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Galen Erso's specialty was kyber crystals and she worked with him doing surveys so she was fairly knowledgeable of them. She also studied a bunch of history and philosophy of the jedi and approved of it. The red part of her outfit on Erso is meant to represent the Church of teh Force movement BUT she was not force sensitive.

My daughter (21) thought Tarkin was real but did question Leia because she knew she is older because of TFA. Again, I think when you know a character has passed away or is older your brain just starts nitpicking.

My buddy, who is a very casual Star Wars fan, had no clue Tarkin wasn't real. A lot of people aren't as in tune with this stuff as we are.

matty matt said:

My buddy, who is a very casual Star Wars fan, had no clue Tarkin wasn't real. A lot of people aren't as in tune with this stuff as we are.

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The Force is strong with us!

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matty matt said:

My buddy, who is a very casual Star Wars fan, had no clue Tarkin wasn't real. A lot of people aren't as in tune with this stuff as we are.

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My wife was confused when I was criticizing the CGI. She had no idea he was!

Sorry if this was mentioned already (I just powered through about 15 pages), but regarding the Stormtrooper "screams:"

I never heard a Wilhelm Scream, but all the screams sounded like they were lifted from old SW video games. I could have sworn they were (at least inspired by) Nintendo 64 Shadows of the Empire, and even Rebel Assault II...

I'm personally glad they used CGI to make Tarkin and Leia, imperfect as it was. It was necessary. Much better than trying to recast, or use prosthetics. And really if they want to Special Edition the hell out of their faces before the bluray release, I'm all for it!

jcoffman99 said:

I believe Lyra Erso was a force sensitive too.

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Jyn's mother? It looked to me like she was wearing Jedi robes, that great disguise!

Regarding the CGI, my 10 year old son asked why Tarkin looked like a videogame.

I haven't seen anyone mention, so maybe I saw it wrong, but I thought Jyn and the droid both used the "look away" blaster shot. Jyn druing the tank battle and the droid in the data vault. I hated Han doing it in TFA so I'm wondering if this is going to be a new running gag.

The only thing that made Tarkin and Leia loom cg to me was the lip movement. When Tarkin first turned around and hadn't spoken yet, it was photo real to me. But once he started talking it started looking off. Tron Legacy had the same problem. I don't know what it is but mouth movement seems to be the last thing that remains hard to replicate.

5. There was such a HUGE presence of the Alliance when they showed up on Scarif because they knew what was at stake. This makes the final scenes in ANH feel underwhelming now. Where was that fleet on the final Death Star attack? That whole room of Alliance dignitaries and generals before Rogue One took on the mission, why the hell werent they on Yavin for the final showdown? It almost seemed odd now at the End Game that Leia and 4 other old guys are the only ones overseeing the attack on the Death Star that ALL OF THIS lead up to.

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That was pretty much the rebel fleet that shows up at Scarif and a chunk gets destroyed t the end. A lot gets damages that escaped. Since the DeathStar run is just a couple days later there was not much of a fleet to add. PLUS the capital ships would not stand a chance against the DS cannon so why should they show up?

I was surprised so much trailer footage didn't make the cut. Usually there's a shot or two you can expect not to see but that was ridiculous. Loved the movie but I'd be interested in a detailed breakdown of the reshoots.

Saw the movie over the weekend with my family. One of my daughters and myself loved it and plan to see it again, My wife and other daughter didn't care for it....and all of us love Star Wars. So much so that both my daughters and I...not my wife though dressed up for the movie.



This is my favorite since Empire, then after this is TFA.
So some things to add to the discussion....
Yes, I really missed the traditional John Williams Star Wars music. Big time. It felt like the new Bond movies without the traditional Bond soundtrack throughout the movies. I missed it, and would have really loved it to be there but certainly lived without it.
Same with the opening crawl.
Strange not having it, and the music particularly due to this being a direct prequel to ANH and not exactly a stand alone movie.
Never the less...

Vader!!!
So awesome seeing him on screen again and what a great way to showcase him first in the tank out of costume, then...to have his castle on Mustafar. Brilliant.
I thought he looked pretty darn cool and convincing. I guess I'd say the costume looked a little too clean and polished but that's if I really really nit pick it. Funny enough though, my wife and both daughters said that Vader's costume looked like a store bought halloween costume and not 'real' like in the 'other' movies.
Me? I did not get that vibe. Not at all.
The last sequence with Vader and the Rebels...yea, freaking amazing!!

Tarkin and Leia.
Tarkin looked really really convincing and wow what a good feeling to see him back on the big screen. Really convincing, but the eyes for me gave him away...every now and then. Did not take me out of the film and I definitely could appreciate how well they made him fit in.
Leia on the other hand was very 'video gamey'. Is that a bad thing? No, not really. I mean if you're along for the ride and enjoying where this movie is taking you then one can easily eat it all up and end up feeling like they tied everything in just beautifully.
I absolutely enjoyed both characters.

The story...was smart. Maybe even too smart. I for one never considered the Death Star Air Duct flaw as bad writing for ANH. It always made sense that in the Empire's arrogance they never expected such a thing to be a design flaw as they saw themselves as all powerful and that no one would dare defy their new space station.

Other things I dug...the crystal necklace and reference to it powering the Jedi's Light Sabers, some of the character cameo's especially WalrusMan and that other guy-forget his name right now but probably the smartest tie in they did was allude to Obi Wan. In ANH I never bought into the coincidental finding of ObiWan on Tattooine. Now, we get exactly how he's tied in to it all.

I really want to give this movie a 10/10 because that's how good I felt while watching it from beginning to end.

David

batguy said:

The CGI animators can't win once the audience knows a human face is CGI.

Disney could have publicly said that Leia would be CGI in this movie but secretly used a 1977 shot. People would have ripped apart the "bad CGI" just as much for one thing or another.


If we could see the new CGI Leia shot compared next to a real frame of ANH, I wouldn't be surprised if the makeup job looked more overdone in the real footage.




As for Tarkin - see if you can find anyone who noticed that he was CGI and didn't already know that walking in.

The CGI Tarkin probably got as much screen time & revealing shots in RO as he did in ANH. That is what I call passing the test.

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My buddy didn't know tarkin was CGI.

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Just saw it again.....1.Star Wars,....2.Empire,.....3.Rogue One....4.Jedi.......5.TFA

Saw the Ghost & Chopper

So much more absorbed on the second viewing,.....better cinema....less distractions

Tarkin & Leia didn't stand out as CG as the first time,.....I know what to expect

I think Tarkin is an amazing performance,.....menacing,.....now you understand why he has the clout that he has,....& why Vader respects that

Soundtrack was beautiful.......very reminiscent of Williams' Star wars suite

J