DC's Rebirth

YenChih Lin

YenChih Lin

Master Member
Okaaay… should I cheer or should I cry or being skeptical?

DC is is undoing New52, AFAIK New52 Supes is dying and being replaced by Pre New52 Supes… but he has a kid with Lois?
How do I know that? A friend posted on FB an article about 孔柯南, the chinese New Super-Man (yes, hyphenation and all, written by a chinese-american comic writer. If they'd keep the Taiwan flag color scheme, he'd still have a blue unitard :D ), so I dug deeper and there's this Rebirth coming up.

It's not a total reboot, which I would rather see, as they proclaimed. New 53 Supes power would be distributed to various characters, including the chinese Super-Man… oh well.

http://io9.gizmodo.com/what-the-hell-is-dc-comics-rebirth-anyway-1769164590

what do you think of it?
 
They've somehow managed to convince Greg Rucka to fix their New52 Wonder Woman. I just can't imagine Greg thinking he's writing for Diana again when this is so not like the Diana he wrote back in the day.
 
Im sorry, did I read that right? Superman is going to be chinese?!?! Haha oh my god. Welp. Thats the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. Talk about pandering to an audience... Pandas...Pandas come from China!!! :eek

For the record, DC has rebooted their continuity so many times its kind of ridiculous. New 52 has only been around a couple years right?

Ok so I read the article and wow. It really bums me out what they are doing to Superman. Moviewise, comicwise, its a mess. What a bummer....
 
well, I've always stated they'd never gender bend or change the race of the core characters....because they are too important to the mythology (minor characters, why not screw them over?)

But a Chinese Superman?

trying to get into the china comics market now, dc?
 
NeilT said:
well, I've always stated they'd never gender bend or change the race of the core characters....because they are too important to the mythology (minor characters, why not screw them over?)

But a Chinese Superman?

trying to get into the china comics market now, dc?
Click to expand...

Yup. Comics right now are so jacked its ridiculous. I dont collect them anymore (I stopped when they made Spidey go crazy back in the 90's) but man, its so annoying how they remake popular characters just to cater to one audience. A Chinese Superman? Thats the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard! So is he not kryptonian? Or is he and he landed in China? Cause, you know....we have already seen the communist Superman story in Red Son, so I dont see how this isnt pandering to Chinese audiences. Its really quite pathetic if you think about it.
 
Snikt said:
Yup. Comics right now are so jacked its ridiculous. I dont collect them anymore (I stopped when they made Spidey go crazy back in the 90's) but man, its so annoying how they remake popular characters just to cater to one audience. A Chinese Superman? Thats the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard! So is he not kryptonian? Or is he and he landed in China? Cause, you know....we have already seen the communist Superman story in Red Son, so I dont see how this isnt pandering to Chinese audiences. Its really quite pathetic if you think about it.
Click to expand...


Almost as goofy as making lady wolverine, and the comic creators saying 'just give it a chance'.

I don't want to give it a chance. why do you kill off wolverine just to gender bend it?

come up with something NEW....unless, you know, you don't think that new thing can stand on it's own, so it has to have a pre existing fan base.
When your tagline is 'all new, all different'....something tells me you've run out of ideas...
 
NeilT said:
Almost as goofy as making lady wolverine, and the comic creators saying 'just give it a chance'.

I don't want to give it a chance. why do you kill off wolverine just to gender bend it?

come up with something NEW....unless, you know, you don't think that new thing can stand on it's own, so it has to have a pre existing fan base.
When your tagline is 'all new, all different'....something tells me you've run out of ideas...
Click to expand...

Well the article that the OP linked says that their original stuff was selling well, new characters etc, so I think the gender/race bending is seriously just a cash grab. Its funny how marvel basically disowns their properties if they dont own the rights(Xmen FF etc) but DC just spins them off to try to tap new markets i.e China. Its ridiculous! Lady Wolverine, Lady Thor, Black Cap, Gay Iceman, Chinese Superman, half black half mexican spiderman. Im sure there are more but like I said, Im not into the comics anymore. Just going off of what I read on various news sites etc.
 
Snikt said:
Im sorry, did I read that right? Superman is going to be chinese?!?! Haha oh my god. Welp. Thats the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. Talk about pandering to an audience... Pandas...Pandas come from China!!! :eek

For the record, DC has rebooted their continuity so many times its kind of ridiculous. New 52 has only been around a couple years right?

Ok so I read the article and wow. It really bums me out what they are doing to Superman. Moviewise, comicwise, its a mess. What a bummer....
Click to expand...

It didn't used to be this way, though. Crisis on Infinite Earths rebooted the continuity in 1985 for literally the first time. Infinite Crisis did it again about 20 years later. And then came Flashpoint/New52 in 2011 only 6 years later. And now we'll get whatever reboot of New 52 only 5 years after that? While they've had "crises" every so often (really just crossover events), the continuity rebooting only started happening at an accelerated pace in the mid-2000s. I think the basic theory for them is that comics have a "life cycle" for fans of about 5-6 years, and that NOT rebooting the continuity every 5-6 years or so presents a barrier to entry for the people aging into the market (which they still target mostly towards young adults). Any fans they retain past that window are gravy. I seem to recall reading that that was the general belief in the industry, anyway, and that any loss of old school fans is ultimately irrelevant because they don't make up enough of the active customers, and you can just sell them TPBs anyway.

From a pure business perspective, I think that makes sense because it allows a new generation of fans to get in on the ground floor, stay connected, and then leave when they'd naturally leave anyway. Maybe you get more than one cycle out of them, but the goal isn't much more than that.

NeilT said:
well, I've always stated they'd never gender bend or change the race of the core characters....because they are too important to the mythology (minor characters, why not screw them over?)

But a Chinese Superman?

trying to get into the china comics market now, dc?
Click to expand...

There's always an "out" for this, though. Like, he's not really Superman. He's Super-Man. This is no different from when, like, Superman had a mullet in the early 90s, after he'd died and been replaced by: a clone made by Lex Luthor, a guy in a metal suit, a cyborg, and...Hell, I forget who the 4th one was. It doesn't matter. And then he split into, like, red and blue energy beings, and so on and so forth.

The major publishers long ago abandoned the notion of long-running continuity. It binds their authors to certain very restricted things, it is a minefield to navigate for storytelling, and it's a barrier for entry for the casual reader.
 
Solo4114 said:
It didn't used to be this way, though. Crisis on Infinite Earths rebooted the continuity in 1985 for literally the first time. Infinite Crisis did it again about 20 years later. And then came Flashpoint/New52 in 2011 only 6 years later. And now we'll get whatever reboot of New 52 only 5 years after that? While they've had "crises" every so often (really just crossover events), the continuity rebooting only started happening at an accelerated pace in the mid-2000s. I think the basic theory for them is that comics have a "life cycle" for fans of about 5-6 years, and that NOT rebooting the continuity every 5-6 years or so presents a barrier to entry for the people aging into the market (which they still target mostly towards young adults). Any fans they retain past that window are gravy. I seem to recall reading that that was the general belief in the industry, anyway, and that any loss of old school fans is ultimately irrelevant because they don't make up enough of the active customers, and you can just sell them TPBs anyway.

From a pure business perspective, I think that makes sense because it allows a new generation of fans to get in on the ground floor, stay connected, and then leave when they'd naturally leave anyway. Maybe you get more than one cycle out of them, but the goal isn't much more than that.



There's always an "out" for this, though. Like, he's not really Superman. He's Super-Man. This is no different from when, like, Superman had a mullet in the early 90s, after he'd died and been replaced by: a clone made by Lex Luthor, a guy in a metal suit, a cyborg, and...Hell, I forget who the 4th one was. It doesn't matter. And then he split into, like, red and blue energy beings, and so on and so forth.

The major publishers long ago abandoned the notion of long-running continuity. It binds their authors to certain very restricted things, it is a minefield to navigate for storytelling, and it's a barrier for entry for the casual reader.
Click to expand...


That makes sense with the re boot angle. comic story lines are so convoluted, that you'd need a degree just to keep track of it all.

But as with the problem with most reboots, they just retell the same stories slightly different. you can only see the same thing done different so many times. And with DVD a nd better archiving, the original will always be around, so the nostalgia factor isn't even there anymore....so what's the point?

As a one time thing, or as a plot point where, say, a chinese man gains supermans powers.. that could be a fun story line. but permanently changing supermans race just to bring in a new audience?

I'm a strong supporter of leaving characters AS ORIGINALLY DESIGNED. if he's black, keep him black . if he's a she, keep him a she. If she started out 20, she'll always begin 20.don't make her a tween.

radically changing things just for change because things have been rebooted so many times, that they need to stand apart from the last version...is just stupid.

How about more original characters like static shock? he's awesome ;o).
 
At work, so I'm skimming the thread, so please forgive me if someone else cleared this up but, Superman is not becoming Chinese.

The new 52 version of the character is dying. The pre new 52 version of Superman and his wife Lois are living in this world with their young son, and pre new 52 Clark has been doing heroics behind the scenes to not draw attention to the fact there are 2 Supermen. By the time rebirth hits New 52 Supes will be gone, or at least on the back burner for a while, and the older more experienced Superman will be stepping out of the shadows and take up the mantle again.

The Chinese guy comes into play because he is a new character who realizes all of a sudden he has Superman's powers, as does at least one other person on earth, new 52 Lois Lane is going to get powers and become Superwoman.

Long story short, the last few events Superman has be in have had his powers get messed up, and as a byproduct, he is dying. As of right now, he is weakened and few random people have temporarily sported his abilities. It seems by the time he "dies" the permanent recipients will be Lois and the new Chinese character.

Hope this helps

NeilT said:
That makes sense with the re boot angle. comic story lines are so convoluted, that you'd need a degree just to keep track of it all.

But as with the problem with most reboots, they just retell the same stories slightly different. you can only see the same thing done different so many times. And with DVD a nd better archiving, the original will always be around, so the nostalgia factor isn't even there anymore....so what's the point?

As a one time thing, or as a plot point where, say, a chinese man gains supermans powers.. that could be a fun story line. but permanently changing supermans race just to bring in a new audience?

I'm a strong supporter of leaving characters AS ORIGINALLY DESIGNED. if he's black, keep him black . if he's a she, keep him a she. If she started out 20, she'll always begin 20.don't make her a tween.

radically changing things just for change because things have been rebooted so many times, that they need to stand apart from the last version...is just stupid.

How about more original characters like static shock? he's awesome ;o).
Click to expand...
 
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But that's my point. The characters aren't changed. It's usually something like someone else taking the mantle of their superhero identity, but the character remains the same.

Examples:

- John Walker becomes Captain America after Steve Rogers gives up the shield and simply goes by "The Captain."
- The Green Lantern becomes black...but Hal Jordan (and Guy Gardner) still exists. It's just that John Stewart is also a Green Lantern.
- Iron-Man "becomes black" because Rhodie dons the armor while Tony is dealing with alcoholism. But Tony Stark still exists and ends up coming back.
- Thor Odinson is stripped of his powers as the God of Thunder, and those powers are given to Jane Foster who is now Thor. But Thor Odinson still exists (as does Beta Ray Bill).
- Bruce Wayne is dead, so Richard Grayson takes over as Batman....until Batman comes back from having been thrown backwards in time or whatever.
- Captain America dies and Bucky takes over...until Steve Rogers is revealed to be alive, but then The Falcon becomes the new, black Captain America.

And so on, and so forth.

The answer is always "Yes, we changed the character, but the REAL character remains the same." And even when the "real" character disappears or dies, they always bring 'em back. Peter Parker died, right? But apparently he's come back now? I dunno. This is a big part of why I don't follow "Big Two" comics much anymore.
 
I see what youre saying Dan, and it makes sense, but from when I was into comics(late 80's, throughout the 90's) Marvel didnt do that. Maybe I missed it before of afterwards, but it just seems like a copout for writers lack of creativity. At least with a character like Superman, he is the ultimate Superhero. And while I do like the different versions that arent canon (Kingdom Come, Red Son) I feel as though altering the character just to reach a specific audience is a cash grab. And that sucks. Its like...whoring themselves out or something. Especially with an iconic hero such as Superman. There are some things you dont mess with too much, and things shouldnt get so convoluted in the first place, I feel like careful planning, and editing could control this. I guess thats the nature of comics though, that when they do something stupid, all they have to do is restart the whole universe. That seems to happen more with DC than Marvel though. At least Marvel tries to explain stuff before flat out rebooting their universe a la New 52.

Im more along the lines of NeilT regarding their original designs. You know the "reign of the supermen" you were talking about after Supes died? They failed miserably in sales and he was back within a year. Thats the thing. Dont mess with the originals so much, you want to do something different? Make a new character. Want to have a universe dedicated to offshoots? Do the elseworlds/Ultimate universes.

One thing I dont agree with NeilT though is, what new adventures would a chinese man have with super powers? How does that bring anything to the character?

Thats the cool thing about comics, is that the classics/greats transcend time. I used to talk to my grandpa about Superman before he passed. Granted they were different, because of the writers, things going on etc, but he still at least held most of the same core principles that allowed us to talk to each other about the same character. If comics are even around for my kids, who the hell knows what they are going to be like with the way things are going. Its just kind of lame if you ask me. I get that its a business that needs to be run, but man. I would rather have them quit comics all together then keep going the way they are.
 
macman27 said:
Long story short, the last few events Superman has be in have had his powers get messed up, and as a byproduct, he is dying. As of right now, he is weakened and few random people have temporarily sported his abilities. It seems by the time he "dies" the permanent recipients will be Lois and the new Chinese character.

Hope this helps
Click to expand...

they may not be making the 'REAL superman' Chinese, but if this new chinese guy where's a similar suit, they might as well be.

As a one time thing it might be kind of fun to see someone else learn and gain supermans powers, but as a permanent thing? no way...

the only one who deserves that honor is lois.

This whole there are TWO Supermen and Lois Lane things is beyond stupid.


I always thought the BatWOMAN Character was redundant, because it made batgirl seem stupid.
If they turn lois into superWOMAN, it'll have the same effect on super GIRL. I won't even get into how dumb the Power Girl design is ;o)
 
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ok well that whole thing revolving around Superman is ridiculous. Their whole multiverse thing is stupid if you ask me. Stuff like that? Thats why I dont read/follow comics anymore. Its annoying, and they dont even stay true to the damn character. There is no other reason to make a Superman chinese, black, hispanic or anything other than a cash grab. It doesnt bring anything to that particular character. He is an alien from Krypyton. So what if someone else has his powers? What does being Chinese have to do with it? Or a woman? It just bothers me the state of how things are with that stuff. *eyeroll*
 
Snikt said:
I see what youre saying Dan, and it makes sense, but from when I was into comics(late 80's, throughout the 90's) Marvel didnt do that. Maybe I missed it before of afterwards, but it just seems like a copout for writers lack of creativity.
Click to expand...

Marvel did do it in the 80s, to some extent, introducing Beta Ray Bill and having Cap be replaced by the guy who'd later become U.S. Agent, but by the late 80s/early 90s, they were more into annual crossover events (Evolutionary Wars! Atlantis Attacks! The Terminus...thing!), and then splitting their mutant teams into even more mutant teams, with varying foil covers. Also, giving Rob Liefeld work.

At least with a character like Superman, he is the ultimate Superhero. And while I do like the different versions that arent canon (Kingdom Come, Red Son) I feel as though altering the character just to reach a specific audience is a cash grab. And that sucks. Its like...whoring themselves out or something. Especially with an iconic hero such as Superman. There are some things you dont mess with too much, and things shouldnt get so convoluted in the first place, I feel like careful planning, and editing could control this. I guess thats the nature of comics though, that when they do something stupid, all they have to do is restart the whole universe. That seems to happen more with DC than Marvel though. At least Marvel tries to explain stuff before flat out rebooting their universe a la New 52.

Im more along the lines of NeilT regarding their original designs. You know the "reign of the supermen" you were talking about after Supes died? They failed miserably in sales and he was back within a year. Thats the thing. Dont mess with the originals so much, you want to do something different? Make a new character. Want to have a universe dedicated to offshoots? Do the elseworlds/Ultimate universes.

One thing I dont agree with NeilT though is, what new adventures would a chinese man have with super powers? How does that bring anything to the character?

Thats the cool thing about comics, is that the classics/greats transcend time. I used to talk to my grandpa about Superman before he passed. Granted they were different, because of the writers, things going on etc, but he still at least held most of the same core principles that allowed us to talk to each other about the same character. If comics are even around for my kids, who the hell knows what they are going to be like with the way things are going. Its just kind of lame if you ask me. I get that its a business that needs to be run, but man. I would rather have them quit comics all together then keep going the way they are.
Click to expand...

Right, I don't disagree, and I think it's a big part of why the original characters always end up coming back. But at the same time, I'm ok with, like, the new Blue Beetle being an hispanic kid. I'm fine with Miles Morales being another Spider-Man. Like, basically, I'm ok with there being more than one version of the character, or even an in-continuity reason for one character taking over the mantle of another (e.g. Ms. Marvel), but I do agree that it's usually a move designed to gin up some controversy and headlines and maybe get people buying a few issues out of sheer curiosity, and it often fails (although not always).
 
I think, Superman has transcended being Superman in the sense, that he IS an universal symbol of the better side of humanity we can take as an example and that is not important anymore, who take the mantle (in that case the cape). It could be a russian born Supes, a brit Supes, Earth-11 Superwoman (cutey!!!), a black guy from a multiverse (it was unusual at first, but the core trait is indeed very Superman), John Henry Irons as Steel, a clone, a chinese Super-Man or even an alien superman like Eradicator @Solo4114 (that's the guy you forgot Dan ;) ). Nothing will ever change or challenge the position of the orginal Superman, since he made his mark in history of being the first comic superhero. He and his following iterations are the modern variant of the greek mythological tellings of god and men, no even the the first babylonian epos Gilgamesh!

My guess is, "what can we try to give Superman a new spin"? They'll try it out, till something sticks. I don't like it either with the Rebirth stuff, but I can understand why they do it. It's a business, the Zeitgeist (wonderful german word isn't it?) is changing faster and faster as the years went by and so has the comics too to keep it interesting.

If you don't keep up with the time, time will change you. I's sad, but true.

Snikt said:
I see what youre saying Dan, and it makes sense, but from when I was into comics(late 80's, throughout the 90's) Marvel didnt do that. Maybe I missed it before of afterwards, but it just seems like a copout for writers lack of creativity. At least with a character like Superman, he is the ultimate Superhero. And while I do like the different versions that arent canon (Kingdom Come, Red Son) I feel as though altering the character just to reach a specific audience is a cash grab. And that sucks. Its like...whoring themselves out or something. Especially with an iconic hero such as Superman. There are some things you dont mess with too much, and things shouldnt get so convoluted in the first place, I feel like careful planning, and editing could control this. I guess thats the nature of comics though, that when they do something stupid, all they have to do is restart the whole universe. That seems to happen more with DC than Marvel though. At least Marvel tries to explain stuff before flat out rebooting their universe a la New 52.

Im more along the lines of NeilT regarding their original designs. You know the "reign of the supermen" you were talking about after Supes died? They failed miserably in sales and he was back within a year. Thats the thing. Dont mess with the originals so much, you want to do something different? Make a new character. Want to have a universe dedicated to offshoots? Do the elseworlds/Ultimate universes.

One thing I dont agree with NeilT though is, what new adventures would a chinese man have with super powers? How does that bring anything to the character?

Thats the cool thing about comics, is that the classics/greats transcend time. I used to talk to my grandpa about Superman before he passed. Granted they were different, because of the writers, things going on etc, but he still at least held most of the same core principles that allowed us to talk to each other about the same character. If comics are even around for my kids, who the hell knows what they are going to be like with the way things are going. Its just kind of lame if you ask me. I get that its a business that needs to be run, but man. I would rather have them quit comics all together then keep going the way they are.
Click to expand...
 
While I do agree with what you said, most of the points anyway, I just dont like the pandering to different audiences to try and get those sales. Make creative stories about the character. What does being a different race (chinese, black, whatever) have anything to do with that though? Does being chinese mean that he is going to save some pandas out of a tree instead of a cat? Is there going to be a bamboo forest that needs saving? I just dont get it, other than to try and get that chinese buck. Or yuan. It just seems like such a cop out to me. What makes Superman, Superman, is that he was the last son of krypton, fell to earth in Kansas, and was raised by John and Martha Kent. Leaves Smallville, goes to Metropolis to be come a reporter for the Daily Planet, and fights for truth, justice, and the american way as Superman. Change any of those, and it doesnt make him superman anymore. Yeah you can tweak his powers, different kinds of kryptonite etc, but to me, changing any of those fundamentals doesnt make it be the same character. I think its lame that he renounced his American citizenship, like its a bad thing to be American, just because of the times. It sucks. And now they are making a chinese superman because that market is opening up. Cause cmon. Lets be honest, thats why they are doing that.
 
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