Star Wars Anthology (Obi-Wan Kenobi)

Collectorchris · Apr 19, 2018

Inquisitor Peregrinus said:
Maybe I should say Yojimbo with Kurosawa's Musashi setpiece from Seven Samurai mixed in. Obi-Wan definitely takes on a Musashi role in his exile. Doesn't use his sword, still gets involved in things. The plot of Yojimbo is what I pinged to because of the lone ronin aspect, but also because the story can be adapted to fit inter-trilogy events nicely. Switch it to...

Some bandit type is trying to set up a territory far enough away from Jabba that he hopes to avoid attention. One of his underlings figures he can do better. Anchorhead and the surrounding farms are caught in the crossfire. To protect Luke, Obi-Wan tries to intercede (remember his nickname? The Negotiator?), one wannabe crime lord tries to pit him against the other, and vice versa. It ends up drawing the attention of the figurehead Imperial governor, which is the kind of attention neither Obi-Wan nor Jabba want. Obi-Wan tricks the two upstarts into destroying each other, Jabba distracts the Imperial agent with a false issue elsewhere, re-asserts his authority over the rest of the gangs, narrowly misses discovering Obi-Wan, and things settle down again, with Owen grumping to "Ben" that they don't need his help and to keep clear. End with the crazy wizard walking off again into the suns-set.

No going offplanet, no lightsaber-fu. Nice and intimate and relevant to the characters' arcs.

Also, FWIR, Tatooine is on the outer rim, and doesn't have much to offer, therefore prior to the Tantive IV being chased to that area, your lead to believe the Empire had no interest in the area.

On another note about the force from the rest of the discussion. I thought the explanation of the force from the OT, was that it was "a natural energy field, it flows through every living thing, binds us, and penetrates us". Then the PT we are told we all have a symbiotic relationship to it. Your potential is based on the level of midichlorians in you. That's why some are able to do extraordinary things without understanding why, they are "special" or "gifted". Most with a high levels are identified early (so the Jedi used medical testing to identify infants that have more potential early), however those on the outer rim or away from the normal reach of "Civilized" systems did not get tested.

So, my understanding is the better conductor you are based on "midichlorian levels" the more in touch you can be. Supposedly Anakin Skywalker was the highest level seen "even higher than master Yoda". I think this is in a nut shell why we don't buy Rey being a nobody, and being so strong knowing Luke and Ben are direct descendants of the greatest conductors "highest midichlorian counts" observed. Hell Anakin was allegedly created of the Force and it took him time to train and learn to use it or understand what he was doing, even Luke took time.

Axlotl · Apr 19, 2018

It was never about what the force can do - it's about what you can do with with the force. (at least in the OT - the prequels don't exist on my planet)

A: The force is the living universe. "Using the force" is "becoming one with the universe", like the taoists and zen buddhists do when they meditate.

B: The balance between the light and dark side is the yin and yang. More taoist philosophy - again, it represents being at one with the universe.
It's a personal thing - an internal thing - not an external thing like how many jedi and sith can exist at any one moment.

C: Anyone can be a jedi, just like anyone can be a taoist. The force is a literal interpretation of taoism for western audiences in a sci-fi setting.

D: A lightsaber is just a tool. Like a samurai sword. Just because that crazy person in a standoff with the cops has a samurai sword, that doesn't make him a samurai.

E: The force was used in the OT as a vehicle for telling us that if we believed in ourselves and wanted something badly enough we could make it happen.
That if we could slough off all our baggage and rise above ourselves and see things clearly that anything was possible.
Which meant a lot to me as a kid who was constantly being reminded that he was worthless and stupid and couldn't do anything right.

The Wook · Apr 19, 2018

Laspector said:
That's the point exactly! So what's wrong with the new movies showing even more different things the Force can do?

Nothing. But there needs to be limitations on what we see someone do with the Force. A line needs to be drawn, when making new Star Wars movies. And that's where SWIQ comes in.

The Wook

Fly4v · Apr 19, 2018

Elegant response Axlotl.

So the Force and Jedi had been around for thousands of years before the OT.

We learn about the Force through Luke as he trains and grows more powerful. Assuming AHN, ESB, and ROTJ is a linear evolution based on his education and ignoring Splinter of the Minds Eye.
We also ignore the OT remakes, Hayden Christensen replacing Sebastian Shaw.

Then the PT introduce the midichlorians, Sith rule or two, the dangers of starting training too old, the dangers of precognitive powers and not all Jedi dissolve into Force Ghosts.

Then the new movies come along... and while it is possible, it is more improbable that all these new super powers are available.
They haven't manifested in thousands of years of study.

The Force does need limits and that limit was George but now the Force is whatever is cool for the writers.

Like Ren said "Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
Don't think the new powers that be can be more open and honest.

Bones_68 · Apr 19, 2018

Others have said this before and I think it's true — Star Wars is the best SW movie ever made if for no other reason that it gets the adventure to mysticism balance just right.

Almost every time a new SW movie comes out and tries to elaborate on the original, beautifully spare premise of the force, the more diluted and outlandish the concept becomes. That's one of my biggest complaints about The Last Jedi. It blatantly leans on "hocus-pocus" elements that feel more like gimmicks dreamed up to give the story some unearned dramatic heft. It felt less like Star Wars and more like Harry Potter.

If they make a Kenobi movie, I hope they keep the force in the background. Let it maintain a little mystery. Keep the action and drama grounded and relatable.

The Wook · Apr 19, 2018

Dem Bones said:
Star Wars is the best SW movie ever made if for no other reason that it gets the adventure to mysticism balance just right.

Almost every time a new SW movie comes out and tries to elaborate on the original, beautifully spare premise of the force, the more diluted and outlandish the concept becomes. That's one of my biggest complaints about The Last Jedi. It blatantly leans on "hocus-pocus" elements that feel more like gimmicks dreamed up to give the story some unearned dramatic heft. It felt less like Star Wars and more like Harry Potter.

High SWIQ post.

Dem Bones said:
If they make a Kenobi movie, I hope they keep the force in the background. Let it maintain a little mystery. Keep the action and drama grounded and relatable.

Don't count on it. That's not what Disney (and Hollywood) feeds the millennials.

Sluis Van Shipyards · Apr 19, 2018

Laspector said:
Agreed. That's why I don't get why people are so up in arms about these new movies showing new Force stuff. Who knows what all the Force is capable of doing? Can the Force grow and even change? Who knows? I'm not so much up on all the novels and old EU stuff, but I seriously doubt there has ever been anyone who was revered as knowing everything there is to know about the Force.

Jedi use the force as an ally, not a servant. And even with the Sith, just because someone can control aspects of the Force doesn't mean they know everything there is to know about it.

It's really a wonderful loophole as far as story telling. It can do whatever the writer wants it to do.

Only Han Solo gets away with saying "That's not how the Force works!" :lol

I agree. The only thing I didn't think made sense was Kylo Ren stopping a blaster bolt simply because there's zero reason to have this. If you have a lightsaber you just deflect it. I don't know why people freaked out with the Prequels when they didn't do anything that was that extreme. If we start seeing a flying Jedi, then I'll really complain.

Axlotl said:
B: The balance between the light and dark side is the yin and yang. More taoist philosophy - again, it represents being at one with the universe.
It's a personal thing - an internal thing - not an external thing like how many jedi and sith can exist at any one moment.

For the hundredth (okay maybe like fifth...) time the balance of the Force is not yin and yang. Lucas says balance is a complete absence of the Sith or Sith control of the galaxy. It's a Jedi Prophecy. That means the Jedi can define balance how they want. It's not a 50/50 thing.

As for Leia in TLJ, I didn't have much of a problem with that. I've only seen it once, but I think the problem was how they did the effect. She kind of just glides back in. I would have rather had it more like a bungie cord effect where you would see her flying out, use the Force to grab the ship, then fly back in.

Inquisitor Peregrinus · Apr 19, 2018

Fly4v said:
So the Force and Jedi had been around for thousands of years before the OT.

"For over a thousand generations, the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic." Two things there. One, assuming a SW generation is at least as long as a contemporary generation, we're looking at about 25,000 years minimum that the Jedi and Republic worked together. Which is the other thing -- how long before that relationship had Jedi and Republic existed more separately? But yeah, Jedi been around for a bit.

Then the new movies come along... and while it is possible, it is more improbable that all these new super powers are available.
They haven't manifested in thousands of years of study.

The Force does need limits and that limit was George but now the Force is whatever is cool for the writers.

I dunno, man... Since I'm throwing quotes around, "The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force." There are some implication there. Surviving corporeal death is impressive, yes, but I wouldn't draw on that to make such a declaration. Jedi/Sith of old had to have done something to warrant Vader saying it could trump the Death Star. The EU gave us Sith Lords snuffing suns, Jedi pulling Star Destroyers out of the air or flinging them light-hours through hyperspace, Sith summoning planet-devouring warp storms... Something on that scale is the sort of thing I can see warranting that haughtiness.

But definitely more than tele-choking or super-jumping or pulling an X-Wing out of the swamp.

--Jonah

Bones_68 · Apr 20, 2018

Inquisitor Peregrinus said:
I dunno, man... Since I'm throwing quotes around, "The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force." There are some implication there. Surviving corporeal death is impressive, yes, but I wouldn't draw on that to make such a declaration. Jedi/Sith of old had to have done something to warrant Vader saying it could trump the Death Star. The EU gave us Sith Lords snuffing suns, Jedi pulling Star Destroyers out of the air or flinging them light-hours through hyperspace, Sith summoning planet-devouring warp storms... Something on that scale is the sort of thing I can see warranting that haughtiness.

But definitely more than tele-choking or super-jumping or pulling an X-Wing out of the swamp.

--Jonah

Maybe, that seems reasonable. But, within just the context of the movie, I could also read that line as simply an instance of hubris. Vader, surrounded by a bunch of bureaucrats he despises, says something to knock them down a notch. He's asserting his dominance, controlling the room, daring someone to speak up and challenge him (and then Admiral Motti takes the bait and opens his big mouth!).

BTW, I like your concept here. Sounds like a solid foundation for an interesting Kenobi adventure.

Fly4v · Apr 20, 2018

Sluis Van Shipyards said:
I don't know why people freaked out with the Prequels when they didn't do anything that was that extreme.

From a Force Jedi stand point, for me, it was the midichlorians, contradicts Obi-wan and Yoda's explanations in the OT.

Sith stand point, the rule of two, as it was explained by the Jedi.
Better if for the Sith it was only two can be publicly known at a time, if necessary.
Other than that keep their true numbers hidden.

Inquisitor Peregrinus said:
"For over a thousand generations, the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic."
"The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force."

Agreed so much fill in the blank and done so by the EU.

What I wonder is with Ren always praying to Vader's helmet, why doesn't Anakin's Force ghost appear?

Edit: Needed to buy a vowel.

Axlotl · Apr 20, 2018

Sluis Van Shipyards said:
For the hundredth (okay maybe like fifth...) time the balance of the Force is not yin and yang. Lucas says balance is a complete absence of the Sith or Sith control of the galaxy. It's a Jedi Prophecy. That means the Jedi can define balance how they want. It's not a 50/50 thing.

Lucas is a low-SWIQ hack.

Inquisitor Peregrinus · Apr 20, 2018

Fly4v said:
Sith stand point, the rule of two, as it was explained by the Jedi.
Better if for the Sith it was only two can be publicly known at a time, if necessary.
Other than that keep their true numbers hidden.

Well, the Rule of Two is just that at any time there are only two Sith Lords the Master to embody power and the Apprentice to seek it. There can be any number of hopefuls, acolytes, devotees, and wannabes backstabbing and jockeying for position.

What I wonder is with Ren always praying to Vader's helmet, why doesn't Anakin's Force ghost appear?

"I feel it again... The pull to the Light."

Keycube · Apr 20, 2018

Sluis Van Shipyards said:
I agree. The only thing I didn't think made sense was Kylo Ren stopping a blaster bolt simply because there's zero reason to have this. If you have a lightsaber you just deflect it. I don't know why people freaked out with the Prequels when they didn't do anything that was that extreme. If we start seeing a flying Jedi, then I'll really complain.

I always thought the "Force speed" thing in Ep1 was odd in a few ways; one, that you never saw even a hint of something even resembling it or referencing it in the OT (you could use old-school film techniques in some small measure if you needed to), and two, the fact that it's in the first few minutes of a brand new trilogy - presuming to set some sort of precedent - and yet you never see it again (thankfully).

I'm more okay with Ben's ability with the blaster bolt, simply because it's "dark art" stuff, and there are likely compromises elsewhere as far as force usage, than with a one-off out-of-nowhere Jedi thing that seems like a major "cheat".

cboath · Apr 20, 2018

Fly4v said:
Elegant response Axlotl.

Then the new movies come along... and while it is possible, it is more improbable that all these new super powers are available.
They haven't manifested in thousands of years of study.

.

And what do we know about what was going on in the world in BC's? Next to nothing.

They said the jedi were around thousands of years, plural. Is that 2000?, 10,000? etc. Plenty could have been learned or forgotten or the current crop could be incapable of doing it for whatever reason. In the PT, the numbers of Jedi had been dwindling. When showed up in the Arena in AOTC was nearly all that was left at that point.

There's nothing saying everything shown in the ST wasn't done before. Much more could have been done. We just didn't see it. We saw story spanning 50ish year. But we've seen a less than what? 2-3 weeks worth of time in that span.

Kylo stopping the blaster in the air was cool. Vader simply knocking down the bolts with his hand, IMO, more impressive. One is 'i won't let you shoot me', the other is 'go ahead and shoot me, wont' do you any good even if it gets to me'.

The projection stuff and appearing is a major new thing, but while it was concieved for these movies, it wouldn't have served much purpose in the prior 7. The only possible area is the council using holograms when they couldn't be there as opposed to projecting themselves. But as is stated in the movie, you have to be uber-powerful to do it as the effort would kill you. Therefore, a good reason the council didn't do it.

No one has used force speed or force jumping since the PT. Luke maybe in the bespin fight. But that's it. Yoda goes nuts on Dooku. Not seen again. Catching lighting in his hands, not seen again. Didn't even try to do that in ROTS.

Beliefs, habits, needs, etc change over time. Thousands of years is a long time to learn and forget things, or to simply discard them. I'm sure there was infighting in the Jedi over that span and things were probably lost, etc.

patrickivan · Apr 20, 2018

Sluis Van Shipyards said:
I agree. The only thing I didn't think made sense was Kylo Ren stopping a blaster bolt simply because there's zero reason to have this. If you have a lightsaber you just deflect it. I don't know why people freaked out with the Prequels when they didn't do anything that was that extreme. If we start seeing a flying Jedi, then I'll really complain.

For the hundredth (okay maybe like fifth...) time the balance of the Force is not yin and yang. Lucas says balance is a complete absence of the Sith or Sith control of the galaxy. It's a Jedi Prophecy. That means the Jedi can define balance how they want. It's not a 50/50 thing.
QUOTE]

We (my wife and I), were always convinced that the balance of the force was only negatively affected when those who could use it, twisted it for purposes that were outside of that natural balance. Hence, the Sith. The Jedi were those who were inherently not necessarily all perfect and super good, but all who believed in the balance had to be maintained, and fought those who corrupted it. They used the force in what would have to be a natural way. Working with it as opposed to twisting it.

The dark side being a term to represent that twisted imbalanced Force that corrupted them as a sort of side effect. Not something conscious. Evil force users were more naturally attracted to it of course, but once a curious indifferent force user dabbled in twisting the force, they were corrupted. The evil side effect.

The whole yin and yang thing is silly. Even the stupid symbol in the Jedi Temple made me a little mad. I just don't think that was the point of what the force is.

And I don't like how Luke interpreted what the Jedi were. Not after his brief interactions with Yoda and Ben. I think it was poor writing and a sloppy interpretation of the Force.

A Kenobi movie should really get back to the essence of it. Less use of the Force, and when used, a more natural symbiotic use (whatever that is of course)...

And something I do want to see, is less interpretation of good and bad. There are those who want to oppress people (the First Order), and those who want to work for people's freedoms (the Republic). No need to show us the grey politics in between. That's real life. I don't watch movies for real life. I want to see the ******** get beaten by the good guys.

Inquisitor Peregrinus · Apr 20, 2018

cboath said:
They said the jedi were around thousands of years, plural. Is that 2000?, 10,000?

Dunno if you just missed it or have me on ignore...

Fly4v said:
So the Force and Jedi had been around for thousands of years before the OT.

Inquisitor Peregrinus said:
"For over a thousand generations, the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic." Two things there. One, assuming a SW generation is at least as long as a contemporary generation, we're looking at about 25,000 years minimum that the Jedi and Republic worked together. Which is the other thing -- how long before that relationship had Jedi and Republic existed more separately? But yeah, Jedi been around for a bit.

cboath said:
And what do we know about what was going on in the world in BC's? Next to nothing.

Our world? Our BC era? Quite a bit, actually, for at least a while. Once we go back over ten thousand years, things start getting seriously murky, but we've reconstructed a lot, if one knows where to look for what's been written up. But it doesn't track. We're not talking post-industrial trying to dig back into pre-historical. In the GFFA, they've had advanced computers and been out in space for more than that long. A better -- but unanswerable -- question might be "what will they know about us, say, thirty thousand years from now?"

The Wook · Apr 20, 2018

Axlotl said:
Lucas is a low-SWIQ hack.

It always pains me to call him that, but you're right. Sadly, a low-SWIQ hack is ultimately what he became.

It began with ROTJ, continued with the SEs, and manifested fully with the Prequel Trilogy.

And yet, as bad as the prequels were, they are better than the crap films Disney's slapping the Star Wars logo on.

The Wook

Sluis Van Shipyards · Apr 20, 2018

Fly4v said:
From a Force Jedi stand point, for me, it was the midichlorians, contradicts Obi-wan and Yoda's explanations in the OT.

It didn't contradict anything. Midichlorians are basically just how many antennae you have in your body. More of them makes you have a stronger connection to the Force. Not to mention Lucas already thought them up by the time ANH came out (Rinzler Making of SW book).

Keycube said:
I always thought the "Force speed" thing in Ep1 was odd in a few ways; one, that you never saw even a hint of something even resembling it or referencing it in the OT (you could use old-school film techniques in some small measure if you needed to), and two, the fact that it's in the first few minutes of a brand new trilogy - presuming to set some sort of precedent - and yet you never see it again (thankfully).

I'm more okay with Ben's ability with the blaster bolt, simply because it's "dark art" stuff, and there are likely compromises elsewhere as far as force usage, than with a one-off out-of-nowhere Jedi thing that seems like a major "cheat".

The quote I liked from Lucas on this was that in the OT all you saw were an old Jedi and two old Sith Lords. You never really saw what they could do. The Force speed thing was in games and the books for five years by the time TPM came out.

Axlotl said:
Lucas is a low-SWIQ hack.

It doesn't matter who doesn't like him he still created it and created the rules it has to follow.

Axlotl · Apr 20, 2018

The Wook said:
It always pains me to call him that, but you're right. Sadly, a low-SWIQ hack is ultimately what he became.

It began with ROTJ, continued with the SEs, and manifested fully with the Prequel Trilogy.

And yet, as bad as the prequels were, they are better than the crap films Disney's slapping the Star Wars logo on.

The Wook

I really want to like this comment, but the last sentence is preventing me from doing so.
The prequels are just as embarrassingly awful as the Disney fan-films.
No - they're even more embarrassingly awful, because they were made by "THE CREA-TOR!"

Please retract that last sentence so we can be on equal SWIQ footing again.
It's uncomfortable having a higher SWIQ than the guy who created SWIQ.

Mr Webber · Apr 20, 2018

I was on the ground floor of the SWIQ revolution from the start but am now having serious doubts.:facepalm

Star Wars Anthology (Obi-Wan Kenobi)

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