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  1. rbeach84's Avatar
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    Feb 3, 2016, 12:55 PM - Re: 1/48 B-Wing Scratch Build #51

    Pedro, I have been considering the B-36 wing & how to resolve the taper angle discrepancy. It occurs to me now that the reason may be the same as the reason it "lost" it's tapering thickness.

    Consider this: if the armature was made first (must have, obviously) then the primary wing would be like a 'sock' pulled over the long pipe. So, if sealed at the leading and trailing edges and then pushed on the pipe, which has a constant diameter, then the wing also would be forced (deformed) to fit. The result would be the 'skin' would adopt a constant thickness along it's length. In effect, the leading edge would have to come closer to the pipe as the center was raised, thereby increasing the taper when seen in plan view. It would be the same if you took the leading and trailing edges and 'squeezed' them towards each other to widen the internal distance between the two skins.

    This would explain how the chord curvature appears 'flatter' at the root and greater where it meets the gun 'pod'. The only variable in this really is whether they also trimmed the leading edge before assembly. I think they did something to it as the primary wing has a sharper leading edge than the kit part (one reason I didn't think the B-36 wing was used...) But the kit wing doesn't have a typical straight leading edge separation but incorporates notches that mate to the lower wing half. Putting the two top pieces together would result in little contact area because of the gaps, so easiest way to fix that (and give a 'sleeker', less blunt leading edge) would be to just trim off a portion of the kit's leading edge. It would take 5 minutes tops... score, snap, block sand smooth.

    I like this theory but given the thickness of the kit parts, I'd expect inserting the pipe would be tricky. But PS is tough and, if done slowly, can be deformed quite a bit before snapping. The real trick would be keeping the glued edges together, though interesting enough, Jason's images shows the trailing edge coming apart a bit at the seam!

    To determine the potential degree of this deformation, I need to start with the diameter of the armature pipe (since I have a B-36 wing to play with on hand.) I do believe that the portion of the kit wing used was from the tip inwards, unlike Carlos' choice where he took more of a center section, simply because you can see a bit of the wing tip radius in the pictures (see my earlier post...)

    So what does this mean to the 1/48 scale model I'm supposed to be working toward? Well, whatever means I use to make the primary wing (and it would be easy enough to simply make it with ribs and sheet plastic...) I need a good set of plans to get it to look right. And that starts with deconstructing the original so I can accurately determine some key dimensions. Now, if Jason had measured the beastie, that would save a whole lot of work... ;^P

    "Never give up, never surrender!"

    Regards, Robert
  2. Pedro's Avatar
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    Feb 3, 2016, 2:51 PM - Re: 1/48 B-Wing Scratch Build #52

    Putting aside the whole business of using the exact same donor parts (albeit in a different scale) for super-duper studio accuracy, I think what we've learned here is that several examples using different source wings have looked exceptionally good, so you've got some options if you never figure it out.
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    Feb 3, 2016, 3:56 PM - Re: 1/48 B-Wing Scratch Build #53

    If it would help: I took a lot of photos last year in Cologne at the SW Identities of the B-Wing and started with photogrammetry. If orthogonal renders of the uncleaned mesh would help to ID the wing donor, I'll try to get some ready this weekend.

    I'm also going to Munic this summer when the exhibition is on tour there, and will take more photos. If you need some special shots, send me a PM with a list.

    Cheers,
    Thorsten
  4. rbeach84's Avatar
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    Feb 3, 2016, 11:30 PM - Re: 1/48 B-Wing Scratch Build #54

    Pedro, I agree. My expectation is that I'll be scratching most of the components anyway due to the lack of suitable reduced scale equivalents. As long as you have a handle on the physical parameters, you can make any shape.

    Thorst, thank you for the offer! Right now, I am indeed leaning towards the Monogram 1/72 B-36 as the donor (Julien is going to get a reputation for infallibility!) on the original. If the photogrammetry can provide some dimensional data, that would be an enormous help since looking at pictures, which are subject to distortion, to determine relative sizes is inexact at best.

    I did receive my Lindberg 1/200 Space Shuttle stack today. The kit's EFT diameter measures at 1.625 inches. Since the real EFT diameter is 27.6 feet or 331.2 inches, this means the tank is actually more like 1/204 scale (331.2/1.625=203.8.) However, assuming the EFT on the original was from a 1/144 scale kit and it was accurately sized, the diameter I need is (331.2/144)*.666 =1.532 so the Lindberg kit is oversized by 0,09 inches or just under 3/32nds an inch. This is workable especially if George vacuformed over the kit part and certainly close enough for my purposes. (It also fits perfectly over the 1.5 inch PVC sink drain pipe I'm using for the core.)

    Regards, Robert
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    Feb 4, 2016, 12:47 PM - Re: 1/48 B-Wing Scratch Build #55

    Robert,

    here are some orthogonal renders of the photogrammetry result. Unfortunately I didn't remember how bad the mesh was, the gaps in coverage were too large to get it better.








    I'll try to get a better mesh during the summer when it is in Munic.

    Cheers,
    Thorsten
  6. rbeach84's Avatar
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    Feb 4, 2016, 1:56 PM - Re: 1/48 B-Wing Scratch Build #56

    Nonetheless, very cool! The third one down (rear view) doesn't seem to have too much ortho on it... the crew nacelle is near straight on while the right side (main gun) is only showing about 10 degrees of angle. Not too shabby...

    Regards, Robert
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    Feb 4, 2016, 2:24 PM - Re: 1/48 B-Wing Scratch Build #57

    All renders are orthogonal, and even if I can not guaranty for the quality of the solved mesh, the gun is indeed sagging on the original.



    Cheers, Thorsten
  8. Pedro's Avatar
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    Feb 4, 2016, 2:31 PM - Re: 1/48 B-Wing Scratch Build #58

    Very cool! If only useful for establishing proportions. Thanks for making those! Now I want to build one.
  9. blakeh1's Avatar
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    Feb 4, 2016, 4:15 PM - Re: 1/48 B-Wing Scratch Build #59

    Are those pictures of the "no dots" one? (i.e. not the one with the orange dots)

    I'd love to see more of the no dots one, especially the details in the "open hatch" area at the back of the main wing
  10. MonsieurTox is offline MonsieurTox
    Feb 4, 2016, 6:57 PM - Re: 1/48 B-Wing Scratch Build #60

    rbeach84 said: View Post
    Pedro, I agree. My expectation is that I'll be scratching most of the components anyway due to the lack of suitable reduced scale equivalents. As long as you have a handle on the physical parameters, you can make any shape.

    Thorst, thank you for the offer! Right now, I am indeed leaning towards the Monogram 1/72 B-36 as the donor (Julien is going to get a reputation for infallibility!) on the original. If the photogrammetry can provide some dimensional data, that would be an enormous help since looking at pictures, which are subject to distortion, to determine relative sizes is inexact at best.

    I did receive my Lindberg 1/200 Space Shuttle stack today. The kit's EFT diameter measures at 1.625 inches. Since the real EFT diameter is 27.6 feet or 331.2 inches, this means the tank is actually more like 1/204 scale (331.2/1.625=203.8.) However, assuming the EFT on the original was from a 1/144 scale kit and it was accurately sized, the diameter I need is (331.2/144)*.666 =1.532 so the Lindberg kit is oversized by 0,09 inches or just under 3/32nds an inch. This is workable especially if George vacuformed over the kit part and certainly close enough for my purposes. (It also fits perfectly over the 1.5 inch PVC sink drain pipe I'm using for the core.)

    Regards, Robert
    Don't get me wrong Robert, I did not say the B-36 is what they used but that's what I would use.
    I honestly don't know if they used a kitpart for their model, so many models have been made with vacforming around hand made bucks for ROTJ (even if they were inspired by kitparts like the speederbike or a-wing masters).

    There's a thing I noticed when I saw the "no dots" B, the main wing halves were splitting/cracking a part the way a vacformed or resin part would, it did not look like a kitpart. Maybe Thorst's pics will confirm that.
  11. rbeach84's Avatar
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    Feb 5, 2016, 1:30 AM - Re: 1/48 B-Wing Scratch Build #61

    Julien, you mean the "blue" B-Wing? The orange dot one also has a split (on the trailing edge), or at least it is visible in Jason's pictures. I've gotten a few images of the blue one, I'll look for that damage.

    Thanks for clarifying the B-36 point. I am finding myself truly torn on whether the B-Wing's wing was made of kit parts or not because of several things:
    - One is the little radius on the trailing edge at the gun pod junction. It appears to be the curvature found on a donor kit's wingtip.
    - If it is the wingtip, then my measurements still result in the location where the 'root cut' would fall on the B-36 wing to be of insufficient chord, regardless of the wing taper. So, Carlos would be correct in taking his portion from the center in order to allow it to be wide enough - but then what of that radius?
    - The wing 'skin' looks thick enough to be from an injection molded kit (this is visible in the 'cutout'.) Granted, the ILM shop must have had good sized vacuforming machines to allow for forming thicker sheet plastic so that alone doesn't prove anything.
    - Although the wing is relatively thick, it does have a fairly sharp leading edge while the trailing edge appears to be thin but somewhat blunted. Again, nothing definitive.

    Too bad we cannot ask George about it! (Or... can we?) ;^P

    Either way, guess it is time to make a creative judgement call and put something to "paper". Literally, on to the drawing board (or CAD in this case...)

    Regards, Robert
  12. MonsieurTox is offline MonsieurTox
    Feb 5, 2016, 8:19 AM - Re: 1/48 B-Wing Scratch Build #62

    rbeach84 said: View Post
    Julien, you mean the "blue" B-Wing? The orange dot one also has a split (on the trailing edge), or at least it is visible in Jason's pictures. I've gotten a few images of the blue one, I'll look for that damage.

    Thanks for clarifying the B-36 point. I am finding myself truly torn on whether the B-Wing's wing was made of kit parts or not because of several things:
    - One is the little radius on the trailing edge at the gun pod junction. It appears to be the curvature found on a donor kit's wingtip.
    - If it is the wingtip, then my measurements still result in the location where the 'root cut' would fall on the B-36 wing to be of insufficient chord, regardless of the wing taper. So, Carlos would be correct in taking his portion from the center in order to allow it to be wide enough - but then what of that radius?
    - The wing 'skin' looks thick enough to be from an injection molded kit (this is visible in the 'cutout'.) Granted, the ILM shop must have had good sized vacuforming machines to allow for forming thicker sheet plastic so that alone doesn't prove anything.
    - Although the wing is relatively thick, it does have a fairly sharp leading edge while the trailing edge appears to be thin but somewhat blunted. Again, nothing definitive.

    Too bad we cannot ask George about it! (Or... can we?) ;^P

    Either way, guess it is time to make a creative judgement call and put something to "paper". Literally, on to the drawing board (or CAD in this case...)

    Regards, Robert
    Yeah I mean the blue B wing, I need to check my pics but I dont think Ive ever seen the orange one in person, it was each time the blue one.

    I think the radius at the pod jonction may just be an artifact of the vacforming process. They probably did not trim the rounded edges of the pull, maybe on purpose or maybe not !

    I was not talking about the thickness but more about the way the parts splitted, an injected styrene part is more rigid than vacformed styrene or resin. And the kitparts tend to become brittle and crack over years instead of what can be seen on the blue (parts are a bit distorded), again I have no definitive answer to how the main wing was done, and like I say they May have used a kitpart and vacform over it to create the master... And this master could have been molded and pulled in resin !
    Anyway I think only Bill George knows it and yes maybe someone could ask him ! He's a member of this board I believe.
  13. rbeach84's Avatar
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    Feb 5, 2016, 5:03 PM - Re: 1/48 B-Wing Scratch Build #63

    Looking at the Orange model, the trailing edge (TE) split appears to be due to 'insufficient gluing surface', which came about when the edge was sanded to a more blunt profile:Click image for larger version. 

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    You can see the split on 'Orange' and how the TE was blunted.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Notice how the leading edge profiles change along the length of the wing (also, good angle to see how the 'blanking plates' are oriented in the slots... one is tilted compared to the others.) Note the visible seam on the leading edge near the root.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Interesting how 'Blue' (below) has a different profile (more blunt) than on 'Orange', indicating they were constructed differently. It would be useful to have some images of the Blue primary wing from above its surface so the taper could be seen and compared to Orange. Very likely they have slightly different taper angles.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    One other thing visible is that the leading edge becomes more blunt (rounded & less 'sharp') the further out from the center. This is again from the armature pipe.

    R/ Robert
  14. rbeach84's Avatar
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    Feb 6, 2016, 5:01 PM - Re: 1/48 B-Wing Scratch Build #64

    Little update: I have confirmed that the Tamiya 1/48 A-10A Thunderbolt II kit (MRC # 61023) is the source of the engine bells, spec. parts #9, 10 & 21 (engine cowlings upper and lower.) I compared the pattern of raised panel detail on the Orange B-Wing as shown in Jason's images and it is an exact match. It also appears that the engine cowling fronts (kit parts #10) from the same are used under the pattern of 'tire tread' that surrounds the Airfix Space Shuttle booster rocket nozzles (I have an example and tested it, near perfect fit though I expect the cowling front parts were reamed out slightly to allow the nozzles to 'seat' in a bit further.

    Pictures are pending...

    Thanks!

    R/ Robert
  15. MonsieurTox is offline MonsieurTox
    Feb 6, 2016, 6:26 PM - Re: 1/48 B-Wing Scratch Build #65

    Nice one ! Cant wait to see the pics.
  16. rbeach84's Avatar
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    Feb 6, 2016, 10:45 PM - Re: 1/48 B-Wing Scratch Build #66

    Okay, pictures of the Tamiya engine cowling parts:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    First, the engine bell comparison:
    ILM model (extract from Jason's picture):
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Note the slightly sunken seam where the pylon was cut off & the gap filled.

    Kit part with same ID markers (red) & approximate joint lines (blue):
    Click image for larger version. 

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    (Click to enlarge)

    Test of Space Shuttle booster nozzle in the A-10's front intake (my candidate for the 'tread' nozzle...) shows that the Shuttle part tapers more than the ILM model. Problem for me is that the 1/144 shuttle booster stack I have is a junk parts bin item so I can't positively ID it as the Airfix shuttle. If my 'specimen' is from another kit, then the nozzle may be different - and a match- on the Airfix kit. The diameter is a good match, so I may use this arrangement on the 1/48 model just as a practical consideration.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Click image for larger version. 

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    Another possibility is that section from the booster rocket's body (with parallel sides) was used, especially if the interior of the intake ring was reamed out to fit. Also possible, instead of the kit part, it was vac'ed over and then that slightly larger piece was used.
    I'll work this up on the drawing to see what looks feasible.

    Regards, Robert
  17. Guy Cowen is offline Guy Cowen
    Feb 6, 2016, 11:14 PM - Re: 1/48 B-Wing Scratch Build #67

    I think the inner engines are turned metal. the thickness of the shuttle part is too thin, and seriously great find on the A10 A engines, that a massive coupe. Though you have now led me to believe more shuttle parts may have been used such as the bay doors, I think these may have been the curved extension to the leading edge of the hornet wings, though Ive not tested for length yet
  18. rbeach84's Avatar
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    Feb 7, 2016, 12:18 AM - Re: 1/48 B-Wing Scratch Build #68

    Guy Cowen said: View Post
    I think the inner engines are turned metal. the thickness of the shuttle part is too thin, and seriously great find on the A10 A engines, that a massive coupe. Though you have now led me to believe more shuttle parts may have been used such as the bay doors, I think these may have been the curved extension to the leading edge of the hornet wings, though Ive not tested for length yet
    Guy, certainly I couldn't make any headway without community help so I am tickled immensely to add even a tiny bit to the "effort".

    I agree about the use of possible metal bits for other than the halogen lamp 'reflectors'. Seems reasonable given the heat those elements generate. It could be that the 'nozzle' portion is just a standard sized brass tube. You can see how the edge of that part was chamfered, leaving some tooling marks. There also appears to be a black layer between the 'nozzle' tube and the reflector, perhaps a rubber O-ring.

    You've hit on a little mystery for me re: the Hornet wings, namely the curved section applied to the kit part's trailing edge. Although I don't have access to an Airfix Shuttle, the Lindberg 1/200 (well, again, ~1/204 scale) kit payload door is certainly long enough. However, checking a Revell 1/144 Shuttle kit I have, it measures at 33% larger than the smaller kit (should be 50% more.) So the 1/144 kit payload door is apparently too short to do the job - unless now we're talking about the Hornet wings being trimmed shorter than I'd supposed up to this point or the Revell kit is way off compared to the Airfix kit.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Don't know if this helps at all! It certainly is smacking me around, aye! ;^P

    Regards, Robert
  19. MonsieurTox is offline MonsieurTox
    Feb 7, 2016, 6:58 AM - Re: 1/48 B-Wing Scratch Build #69

    Thanks for the pics ! That would be great if you could post the A-10 kit scan in the scans thread of the SS section. There are probably more parts from this kit on other ROTJ models.

    I dont the exhaust nozzle ring tapers, I think the slight taper we see is due to resin shrinkage.
  20. rbeach84's Avatar
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    Feb 7, 2016, 3:23 PM - Re: 1/48 B-Wing Scratch Build #70

    MonsieurTox said: View Post
    Thanks for the pics ! That would be great if you could post the A-10 kit scan in the scans thread of the SS section. There are probably more parts from this kit on other ROTJ models.

    I dont the exhaust nozzle ring tapers, I think the slight taper we see is due to resin shrinkage.
    To make things easier with this particular assembly, I propose some standardized names for the parts:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    (This is for the purposes of this thread. In fact, I best start providing the same for all the areas under discussion for clarity's sake...)

    So, Julian you are referring to the 'exhaust nozzle' parts? I had begun to think they are 'tubes' but no, they do have a slight taper... Given the visible tool marks, where the edge was thinned a bit, it may have been a cast part or simply a kit part that was separated from the reflector by an O-ring.

    In any case, I have some options for the 1/48 scale rendition.

    Regards, Robert
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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  21. Guy Cowen is offline Guy Cowen
    Feb 8, 2016, 11:49 AM - Re: 1/48 B-Wing Scratch Build #71

    Rob, are you building the studio scale model or a smaller version? I think your should build the studio scale version as not sure what the 1/48scale would be size wise but your heading in such a researching direction why not go the hole hog?
  22. rbeach84's Avatar
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    Feb 8, 2016, 12:28 PM - Re: 1/48 B-Wing Scratch Build #72

    Guy Cowen said: View Post
    Rob, are you building the studio scale model or a smaller version? I think your should build the studio scale version as not sure what the 1/48scale would be size wise but your heading in such a researching direction why not go the hole hog?
    Guy, I'm going with a 'scale-down' because the 1/32 scale of the original makes it so I don't have to scratchbuild *everything* for my go-to modeling scale, 1/48 (didn't you hear me cackling like a fool when I found out about the Hasbro Falcon?) Plus, I sure I don't have the patience to go 'whole hog', which requires much more time finding donors - once they're ID'ed! ;^P

    This way, I can also exert some creative input of my own in rendering the model. I'm not going so far as doing a 'Rebels' morph, as my intent is to be as true to the original model as practical. Hopefully, keeping to a less restricted scope I can finish the model in a reasonable time frame (reasonable for me-ha!) At risk of repeating myself from other discussions, I like building models of real craft, which in the case of movie miniatures is of course nonsensical. So I have to choose between making a model of the 'real' object (aka, the model itself) or a model of what it was intended to represent. I usually go for the latter which can create it own set of problems when I think "shouldn't those controls make sense?" or "How would that function?" I like to think of it as the "NSEA Protector Paradigm"... in a way, it offers me a taste of what the effects team do, from a creative standpoint.

    Well, of to make those A-10 kit scans! Cheers...

    Regards, Robert

    -----------update--------------
    Posted A-10 scans under Studio Scale 'KIT SCANS' sticky... 9-Feb-2016
    RR
    Last edited by rbeach84; Feb 9, 2016 at 9:03 PM.
  23. rbeach84's Avatar
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    Feb 10, 2016, 1:12 PM - Re: 1/48 B-Wing Scratch Build #73

    Bump! Posted the A-10 scans as noted above (but didn't trigger an update in the queue...)
    R/ Robert
  24. rbeach84's Avatar
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    Feb 24, 2016, 1:43 AM - Re: 1/48 B-Wing Scratch Build #74

    This may be known already, but the 'fan' inside the aft crew nacelle opening appears to be the 1/32 Tamiya F-14 exhaust turbine part. Unfortunately, I haven't yet found a kit scan that shows the 'face' of that disk-shaped part to completely verify. But to explain my thoughts, there are some features on the disk to help ID it. These include:
    - 'D' shaped depression or hole in the center to allow the afterburner flame holders parts to 'socket in' at the correct orientation. This is visible in pix of the 'blue' B-Wing model; the 'orange spot' model has a part glued over the hole.
    - Three concentric rings around the 'fan blades'.
    - Dense pattern of 'blades' that doesn't match the engine compressor (front disk) pattern. This would be an accurate depiction of the power (aka exhaust) turbine's narrower blades.
    - Size is roughly the same as the quad engine's diameters. Being one is the exhaust from a 1/32 scale kit and the other the intake from a 1/48 scale kit, it makes perfect sense.

    One thing I can do is size the disk's diameter and 'mock up' its fitment in the shuttle EFT nosecone.

    Best image I've found so far is from a build over on Carrierbuilders.net by Masa Narita:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    As you can see, pretty sorry example (although fine paintwork) to see the details, though the three rings are visible as is the bit of 'lip'. There is another view more directly on that gives a glimpse of the narrow blade pattern.

    If anyone perhaps has a scan of this part & could share, it would be most appreciated. Of course, this is not necessary for my purposes except to support my search for a comparable part, or the scratching-up if needed. The ideal source would be a 1/48 Tomcat kit but I expect those will all have the flame holders molded with the disk.

    Regards, Robert
  25. rbeach84's Avatar
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    Mar 12, 2016, 11:38 PM - Re: 1/48 B-Wing Scratch Build #75

    Slowly getting my drawings done; here is a taste of what I'm messing with so far:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Click image for larger version. 

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    I am doing these in 2D CAD, so nothing fancy. I will share the drawings in their entirety once I'm finished but will post as I go as well.

    Regards, Robert
    Click image for larger version. 

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