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  1. Vacformedhero's Avatar
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    Jan 31, 2016, 12:24 PM - Re: 1/48 B-Wing Scratch Build #26

    Vacformedhero said: View Post
    Thanks Robert , when I read that early thread I understood that the vacforming was done was over another kit part (either shuttle or Saturn V ) I'll check it again if I can find it .
    here it is
    http://www.therpf.com/showthread.php...=B-wing+saturn

    ralphee said: View Post
    Centre hub is now built in basic form, its showed me a few discrepancies in the cockpit area now. Ive built the centre hub as close to the prop as possible, and its clear the canopy, and rear cockpit module are a few mm undersized in diameter, the rear as much as 3mm or so, canopy, maybe 3 to 4mm?
    After a good chinwag with Guy Cowen, I'm going to agree with him and say the rear Space shuttle booster cone, was possibly vac formed over on the original kit parts, and resin cast? Its really odd, as it does come up larger than the Airfix parts on the actual filming miniature.
    Ill post some pics later, can't say i can scale up my rear module too much, as I'm not going into making a new rear cone and canopy, but ill rebuild it and meet it halfway, just to bulk it up some, but as i said, pics will show what I'm doing later!
    Just to add, this isn't a flame on the kit or pattern, i love it, this is purely a modeller with a passion, wanting to take things a little further where other parties signed off.

    lee
    Test
  2. rbeach84's Avatar
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    Jan 31, 2016, 1:14 PM - Re: 1/48 B-Wing Scratch Build #27

    Hey, that's the one. I couldn't decide what was vac'ed. It appears that the shuttle external tank cone was used to vac over? If so, then my use of a 1/200 scale donor will probably be spot on. Lee seems also to be referring to the forward half as the 'canopy', however he doesn't specify if it was also made in a similar fashion.

    I'll need to spec these parts on the drawings obviously so can make vacuforming 'bucks' (aka 'male molds'). Starting to feel like a rabbit hole, fer sure!

    R/ Robert
  3. MonsieurTox is offline MonsieurTox
    Jan 31, 2016, 2:17 PM - Re: 1/48 B-Wing Scratch Build #28

    rbeach84 said: View Post
    Monsieur Tox, thank you for your input. I must note that I had read the proposal that the engine bells were from an 1/48 A-10 kit in the older "B-Wing thread" (and for the record, as a 'lazy guy', I have scoured through *all* of the threads/posts still extant on RPF that contain the phrase 'B-Wing'). I found the raised details on the bells do match the pattern found on either the Revell (#4503) or Tamiya A-10 kits, though I have not yet been able to dig out my specimens from the stash to confirm which is which (I was going from memory and seem to recall the Tamiya kit had raised panel lines, at least back when first issued - but I could be confusing it with the Revell kit, which although somewhat basic, is still quite accurate in shape.) I used a Tamiya A-10 kit parts scan to confirm the pattern was correct, but the current issue of the Tamiya kit has engraved panel details not raised. Whether the original release was raised or not is still to be answered (update: the original issue was raised detail), though my supposition is that the Revell kit, issued around the same time as the Tamiya kit, may have been something of a copy of the Japanese kit but used the more economical raised panel detailing. The point is, for this project, a 1/72 scale A-10 (Hasegawa or Revell kits being candidates) can provide the needed shapes. The A-10 engine pods certainly are the right size and shape, so perhaps we can add this to the "B-Wing database" when we're done.

    In the meanwhile, here is a teaser from parts images of the Tamiya kit from Flevo Aviation website [http://www.flevoaviationhobby.net/images/kitreviews/1-48/tam61028/tam61028.html]:
    Attachment 584790

    As VacFormed indicated, there is a great deal missing from prior discussions simply because images used for illustration are now dead links. My original query regarding the possible sources for the quad engine body aka 'intakes' & the cockpit nose cone is based on the information not being available elsewhere within the forums. I did finally come across a statement re: the 'nose cone' being vacuformed in, I believe, a FM B-Wing resin kit build, however it was not clear if this mean the original or what the modeler himself was doing (again, missing images...) However, this makes sense as I simply cannot locate a part that 'fits the bill' - and I have been looking! So another 'clue' to solving the mystery, now independently confirmed by yourself.

    RE: the use of the 1/32 F-14 wings for the primary wing, I made this determination from several clues. One, the kit was undoubtedly used as a donor on the B-Wing (drop tanks, figure bits to start.) Two, the taper is an exact match between the two. Third, the wingtip curvature is visible on the front & plan views of the main gun mountings:
    Attachment 584821Attachment 584820

    This said, I suspect the kit wings either served as a core for the wings, being reskinned, or were used as 'bucks' for vacuforming. Either way, this provides useful information for fabricating a 1/48 scale version.

    Vacformed Hero,
    I was a bit confused by your 'parts map' question. As far as I know, there aren't any B-Wing parts maps available, at least not to me. I am working just from the images on Modelers Magic, not Studio Scale forum (which is apparently not taking any new membership requests, or at least not mine...) A quick Google search and [http://modelermagic.com/ ] is one of the links that results. I'm also looking through the parts scans provided here (though many of those have also gone 'dead' or are linked to image archive sites that are not publicly accessible.) Keep in mind, VFH, this is a project to build a 1/48 scale B-Wing model - not to build a replica of the filming model. Of course, if I find anything of use to SS modelers, I will share it, but I will be building only what I see in the pictures, so the number of features shared with the original model (such as multiple mounting points and halogen engine lights) will be just coincidence.

    Bighead5, as MT has indicated, creating vacuforming tools is not difficult. I once even made a vac box from a cardboard shoe box, some window screening, a coat hanger wire and duct tape. The plastic holding frame was roughly cut from scrap masonite siding (tough stuff that!) with thumbtacks to hold the plastic sheet. I cut a hole for a vacuum cleaner hose and used the kitchen oven to heat my plastic sheet. It really isn't a big mystery... I recommend you start searching on the Internet for Vac info (I think I may have even authored a bit of a vac-kit primer on our model club's website - hamptonroadsscalemodelers.com - that may help you get started. I say this because you are really going to need to vac parts (such as apparently the nose cone.) For example, the F-14 drop tanks have a bunch of 'plating' on them. Because the tanks are of complex curvature, you cannot simply glue plastic sheet to the tanks, you'll need to vac a 'skin' over the kit parts in order to make the plating (not to mention the nose cone...) One alternative is to mask off the panels with tape, then lay in some glazing putty to build up the plating, but that would be very time consuming given the amount of plating used on the B-Wing. However, sanding can be therapeutic! ;^P

    So, that is it for now. Kind regards, Robert

    PS: It also occurs to me that the plating might be depicted using self adhesive foil tape, as used on air ducts. The foil is fairly thick and being aluminum, can be burnished over complex curvatures... just a thought.
    My previous post was not aimed at you Robert,

    Anyway, the A-10 was an old "possible" donor however it has never been confirmed and Moe was following an other possibility.

    Regarding the tomcat wing, I can assure it was not used for the main wing. It's true that several parts from this kit are used on the B-Wing (drop tanks, pilot, parts in the cockpit and more), however that's all, the shape is not correct and the 1/32 wing is way underscaled next to the SS B-Wing.

    Lee was probably right regarding the rear cone being vacformed over the Shuttle nose tank. This part was then probably cast in resin.

    The cockpit is vacformed styrene on both B-wing models though, and the additionnal plating is not tape of any kind but vacformed styrene too.

    The plating on the F-14 tanks are also vacformed styrene.

    Hope that helps.
  4. rbeach84's Avatar
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    Jan 31, 2016, 2:59 PM - Re: 1/48 B-Wing Scratch Build #29

    No worries, Julien. Human communications are imperfect normally and here we are, further handicapped by having only written words. I am always glad for your contribution as you have been doing this for a while now. So, onwards! ;^)

    RE: the engine bells, I am confident they did indeed come from the 1/48 Tamiya or Revell kits because of the matching pattern of raised detail visible in Jason's pix especially. Plus, I sized the width of the 'engine box' - at the plane of the central splitter plate - at just about 3.5 inches (ILM model.) Using a 1/48 kit part, I checked visually that it looked quite correct, so I'm happy with this finding (until new info comes up - I'm always ready to be corrected!)

    Regarding the F-14 wings, I see as we've gone through this process that they are not a 'drop-fit' for the B-Wing's primary, being too short and too narrow at the root. For example, on the 1/48 scale model, the trailing edge of the primary should be 7.55 inches in length (measured along the edge, not along the wing axis.) The corresponding measure of the 1/48 F-14 wing, which should stand in for the 1/32 example, is only 5.25 inches. If I then superimpose that length on the B-Wing and measure the perpendicular chord, it comes out as an almost exact match to the 1/48 scale wing. This confirms that the taper angle is the same. So, at least for this project I will be using the F-14 wings (with some extra length spliced in) as the basis for the primary wing. Once I start cutting plastic, I hope my theory becomes more evident.

    [I blame this on the 'ah-hah!' moment when someone explained what parts composed the A-Wing. Now I am seeing these design differently, trying to disconnect the forms from the overall effect, a "decomposing eye" I suppose. I'm no good at greeblie ID's, but even that would happen if I were to spend the required practice reviewing part scans on a particular project. Near 50 years of kit modeling has given me some exposure, so some things I can pick out - perhaps there is hope!]

    [back OT] Of course, I am subject to error in these dimensions since I'm just using a ruler (1/32 increments) and measuring from the AMT 1/100 (further scrutiny shows 1/112 was incorrect) B-Wing kit. However, the numbers are lining up well and barring the sudden appearance of some authoritative plans, I'm okay with things. I'll start drawing my plans shortly, now that I think I've got enough of the angles and dims settled enough for a first draft. Then everyone can have a go at 'em for peer review, aka 'shaking the tree to see if any fruit falls' before I start chopping plastic.

    Like all modeling puzzles, it is fun working this. I've even just found the Harrier refueling probe usage that someone mentioned previously! All serves to help get the sizes right...

    Regards, Robert
    Last edited by rbeach84; Jan 31, 2016 at 3:06 PM.
  5. MonsieurTox is offline MonsieurTox
    Jan 31, 2016, 3:20 PM - Re: 1/48 B-Wing Scratch Build #30

    That would be great if then were from the A-10, another thing to find is the exhaust nozzle that looks like a tyre.

    Regarding the main wing, if I was you, I would look for a B-36 Peacemaker at the correct scale for your scaled down B-Wing (not sure if such a small kit of this plane exists for your project).

    I understand what you explained regarding the F-14 wing, however I still think it's not the right part.
  6. Member Since
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    Jan 31, 2016, 5:36 PM - Re: 1/48 B-Wing Scratch Build #31

    It blows my mind that you guys can identify any of these parts. Are all of the original ships scratched from other kits?
  7. rbeach84's Avatar
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    Jan 31, 2016, 9:38 PM - Re: 1/48 B-Wing Scratch Build #32

    SpamDaddy said: View Post
    It blows my mind that you guys can identify any of these parts. Are all of the original ships scratched from other kits?
    SpamDad, the majority were made using a process of creating the primary shape and then adding suitable bits gleaned from existing kits to add the desired level of visual complexity which made them appear 'full size'.

    Some, like the A-Wing, were actually composed primarily of re-purposed kit parts. Others like the TIE fighter, X-Wing & Millennium Falcon, were made "to spec" to a design drawing or concept. The ILM model shop must have been a whirlwind of creativity at the time - their spares bin must have been amazing given the number of kits they raided for parts...

    This is essentially the story as I understand it, but I am a neophyte in this arena.

    R/ Robert
  8. rbeach84's Avatar
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    Jan 31, 2016, 10:58 PM - Re: 1/48 B-Wing Scratch Build #33

    MonsieurTox said: View Post
    That would be great if then were from the A-10, another thing to find is the exhaust nozzle that looks like a tyre.

    Regarding the main wing, if I was you, I would look for a B-36 Peacemaker at the correct scale for your scaled down B-Wing (not sure if such a small kit of this plane exists for your project).

    I understand what you explained regarding the F-14 wing, however I still think it's not the right part.
    MT, I can see the B-36 wing being a candidate - it certainly is thick enough! I shall pull my copy from the stash & make a check. Scalemates website indicates the kit was first released in 1980 which is when ESB came out; can't recall when the B-Wing first appeared. Okay, just checked that it was for ROTJ, so 1983... bully!

    If this is the case, then I'd need a B-36 wing from a 1/108 scale kit for my project. To my knowledge, there is not a kit even to the fairly standard 1/100 scale. However, because the B-36 wing is of constant taper and sweep back, it would actually be possible to simply use a shorter length of the Monogram kit wing, with a wingtip extension.

    In the end, it might just be easier to make it from scratch! ;^P

    For the 'tire' shape on the nozzle, it occurs to me that the front of the A-10 engine cowling could be used as the basis for fabricating that part. A vac copy 'skin' could be marked up for the segments then cut apart and applied to the intake. Tedious yes, but quite feasible. Then I can cast copies to use.

    Appreciate the tip - it will be most helpful with my drawings.

    Regards, Robert
  9. rbeach84's Avatar
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    Jan 31, 2016, 11:11 PM - Re: 1/48 B-Wing Scratch Build #34

    Just an aside: in my searches for B-Wing info, I stumbled on a very nice looking paper rendition by Aleksandr Kovalenko from 2012:

    http://i-am-modelist.com/2012/11/19/...ter-star-wars/

    I can only hope mine turns out as nice!

    I'm still wondering if the secondary wings, when retracted, line up so much forward of the primary wing leading edge, or is this an artifact from those fictitious plans out of the 'Vehicles' book.

    R/ Robert
  10. Vacformedhero's Avatar
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    Feb 1, 2016, 5:28 PM - Re: 1/48 B-Wing Scratch Build #35

    rbeach84 said: View Post
    Just an aside: in my searches for B-Wing info, I stumbled on a very nice looking paper rendition by Aleksandr Kovalenko from 2012:

    http://i-am-modelist.com/2012/11/19/...ter-star-wars/

    I can only hope mine turns out as nice!

    I'm still wondering if the secondary wings, when retracted, line up so much forward of the primary wing leading edge, or is this an artifact from those fictitious plans out of the 'Vehicles' book.

    R/ Robert
    Here are shots I have , the B&W is obviously legitimate, Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	585642 The others were taken of the studio model by Steve and posted on modelormagic
    it may help, maybe not but if you have contact with someone who has actually built the full studio scale as it's hard to see from the images but I thing they are proud of the main wing , maybe with some photogrammetry you could check it, maybe someone has a shot from a show ......ill keep digging
    be careful as there is a lot of shots out there that look like the studio model but I can't confirm
  11. rbeach84's Avatar
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    Feb 1, 2016, 11:32 PM - Re: 1/48 B-Wing Scratch Build #36

    Vac-Hero, very interesting WIP shot - I can make out another B-Wing in the background, laying just right of the air hose. Interesting that the armature passed through the crew nacelle 'clamp' area. This means, if the front and rear halves both rotated, then likely they were independent. Wait, I guess a relatively thin rod could connect the two, with still enough room for the wires to pass...

    I also noticed what appears to be a rod or tube that is situated on upper primary wing's trailing edge. I wonder what is it's purpose?

    So, I pulled the 1/72 Monogram B-36 out of the stash and compared the top wing half to my only exemplar, the 1/100 MPC B-Wing kit. It wasn't a good match when I ghosted the AMT part (on right) onto the B-36 wing (note the angles and the location of the B-36's engine fairing):
    Click image for larger version. 

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    The F-14 wing part matches the angles much better (note the wing is backwards with the trailing edge matched to the "leading edge" of the B-Wing):
    Click image for larger version. 

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    The result is, if the B-36 wing were cut to the correct length for the studio model, it would be too narrow in chord. Granted, there is plenty of plastic in the part so it could be trimmed to the correct angles (the part is some 18" long and only 9.3" is needed...) In fact, it may have been exactly the case, that the leading edge was trimmed so to reduce the thickness of the assembly so it fit around the armature pipe better. However, for my purposes, it may be easier to achieve the desired result using the F-14 parts even though I'll need a splice job to get the needed length.

    I fully understand the MPC kit may have serious flaws. I would hope at least the major dimensions & proportions are correct, given the obvious access to the real deal - but then there is the Millennium Falcon kit which suffers quite a few problems with basic dimensions. More study of the original's images is required, assuming it will even help in this case.

    One interesting thing I noticed about the B-36 wing. The topside engine fairings (there are three) have a shape very close to the primary wing's gun pod. Each are different which offers some choice. Once I've finished the drawing, I may find these fairings are donor candidates, at least on the original.

    Back to the drawing board!

    Regards, Robert
  12. robn1's Avatar
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    Feb 2, 2016, 1:10 AM - Re: 1/48 B-Wing Scratch Build #37

    rbeach84 said: View Post
    ... Interesting that the armature passed through the crew nacelle 'clamp' area. This means, if the front and rear halves both rotated, then likely they were independent. Wait, I guess a relatively thin rod could connect the two, with still enough room for the wires to pass...
    Look again at the second pic, the armature attaches to the engine box.
  13. robn1's Avatar
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    Feb 2, 2016, 1:29 AM - Re: 1/48 B-Wing Scratch Build #38

    I've been considering different candidates for the wing donor (heh, sounds like surgery) and I came up with three possibilities:

    A-6 Intruder

    F-111 Aardvark

    B-1 Bomber

    At the time there was only a 1/72 kit of the A-6 that I'm aware of, so not likely.

    There was a 1/48 F-111, still too small I think.

    Monogram had a 1/72 B-1, and Revell had one in 1/48 and it was a monster. I'd check that one out.
  14. rbeach84's Avatar
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    Feb 2, 2016, 1:57 AM - Re: 1/48 B-Wing Scratch Build #39

    robn1 said: View Post
    Look again at the second pic, the armature attaches to the engine box.
    I was looking at the hole with the wires coming out, it appears to be the end of the armature 'pipe'. Since there are connections in the central engine 'box' (front, rear and bottom) & the primary wing gun pod, I figured one in the crew nacelle also. Whether it was ever used is another question...

    I hadn't considered the B-1 wing; I thought of the F-111 but only the 1/48 available (ex-Aurora Monogram) so not large enough. If you can get to your B-1 kit, though that would be a good candidate.

    I initially thought the cutout might be a clue, but it is just to accommodate the folded secondary wings' gun pods...

    Thanks for helping!

    Regards, Robert
  15. robn1's Avatar
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    Feb 2, 2016, 2:13 AM - Re: 1/48 B-Wing Scratch Build #40

    Sorry, I missed that top mount. It must have had a thin connection for the cockpit through the armature as you said.

    Also sorry but I don't have the 1/48 B-1. I do have the Monogram 1/72 unbuilt, But I have no idea where it is now.

    ETA: The Revell was released in '83 so it's possibly the one.
    https://www.scalemates.com/kits/1302...ll-b-1b-lancer
  16. Borz666's Avatar
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    Feb 2, 2016, 3:46 AM - Re: 1/48 B-Wing Scratch Build #41

    Has anyone looked at the AMT/ERTL - Italeri 1/72 YB-49 kit? for the main wing? for studio scale that is. for your down scale I'm not sure a kit exists.
    Last edited by Borz666; Feb 2, 2016 at 3:58 AM.
  17. rbeach84's Avatar
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    Feb 2, 2016, 3:58 AM - Re: 1/48 B-Wing Scratch Build #42

    Borz, I believe it would be too broad in chord plus I don't think it came out prior to 1982-3 time frame, though I'm not certain of this.

    Regards, Robert
  18. Vacformedhero's Avatar
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    Feb 2, 2016, 8:44 AM - Re: 1/48 B-Wing Scratch Build #43

    Don't discount italeri kits as they have very nice detail in their smaller kits which match up to other manufacturers larger kits details , example being when I was checking the hurricane lower wing detail for my 1:48 hasbro falcon , I finally bought 1:48 air fix as it matched 1:24 hurricane , however italeri matched it as well.

    intruder was one I was thinking of due to the unique shape of the chord, I also thought the harrier and hurricane could be included, I thought the drop tanks were from the harrier , but I'm happy to be corrected on that .
    For the central engine cowl I thought maybe a large Valentine, but I don't think they made it that large ,
    maybe torpedo boat , ship hulls etc, I'm still going through kit scans , actually something like WW2 LCM/LCU i wonder how many of these were available in the early 80's
  19. Vacformedhero's Avatar
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    Feb 2, 2016, 8:55 AM - Re: 1/48 B-Wing Scratch Build #44

    MonsieurTox said: View Post
    That would be great if then were from the A-10, another thing to find is the exhaust nozzle that looks like a tyre.

    Regarding the main wing, if I was you, I would look for a B-36 Peacemaker at the correct scale for your scaled down B-Wing (not sure if such a small kit of this plane exists for your project).

    I understand what you explained regarding the F-14 wing, however I still think it's not the right part.
    Thank you Tox for that
    when I searched for B36 which is a plane I was never aware of , in relation to the b-wing I found this Flickr site with great builds
    take a look rob , very interesting

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/219685...57606227412273
  20. blakeh1's Avatar
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    Feb 2, 2016, 11:51 AM - Re: 1/48 B-Wing Scratch Build #45

    IIRC, the main wing for the B-Wing does not taper from the top to the bottom. It should be the same thickness along the entire length
  21. rbeach84's Avatar
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    Feb 2, 2016, 12:08 PM - Re: 1/48 B-Wing Scratch Build #46

    blakeh1 said: View Post
    IIRC, the main wing for the B-Wing does not taper from the top to the bottom. It should be the same thickness along the entire length
    Aye, I noticed that in some front views, but I believe it may have a very slight taper - but that could be an optical illusion due to the reducing chord taper. Also, remember that the armature 'pipe' runs through that wing, so whatever parts were used, they are in effect clamped to a constant thickness 'spar' so any taper in the original part is mostly eliminated.

    I have been considering how this wing was made and imagine it involves attaching the 'skin' (which has its leading edge removed) to the armature pipe, then a new leading edge made using a piece of tubing (plastic or brass, all the same in the end.) Then a bit of Bondo or some such used to blend the skin to the tube leading edge followed by cutting the three slots using a grinding bit. The big cut-out would be done during or after all this. Also, a blanking strip of plastic could be inserted down the center of the tube , or perhaps not - I'm not convinced that the back visible in the slots must be flat... could just be the interior of the tubing.

    R/ Robert
  22. rbeach84's Avatar
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    Feb 2, 2016, 12:20 PM - Re: 1/48 B-Wing Scratch Build #47

    Vacformedhero said: View Post
    Thank you Tox for that
    when I searched for B36 which is a plane I was never aware of , in relation to the b-wing I found this Flickr site with great builds
    take a look rob , very interesting

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/219685...57606227412273
    He was doing a great job, too bad he didn't finish (or at least finish posting his WIP diary...) I wonder what he used for the engine bells, they look almost exactly like the MPC kit parts (only bigger of course...)

    I found more stuff by clicking his name; Carlos is obviously a big SW fan; perhaps here in RPF, too - he built a Boba Fett helmet...

    R/ Robert
  23. MonsieurTox is offline MonsieurTox
    Feb 2, 2016, 1:03 PM - Re: 1/48 B-Wing Scratch Build #48

    Here's another WIP pic of Bill George



    You can clearly see the white vacformed cockpit and the the white vacformed pulls (probably for the cockpit plating).

    You can also see the second B-Wing in the foreground.
  24. Vacformedhero's Avatar
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    Feb 2, 2016, 2:46 PM - Re: 1/48 B-Wing Scratch Build #49

    Very clear photo , shows the secondary wing alignment much clearer
  25. Pedro's Avatar
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    Feb 2, 2016, 3:32 PM - Re: 1/48 B-Wing Scratch Build #50

    This RPF member used the big B-29 wings as well. His site is currently down, but I was just looking at it the other day, so it's probably temporary.
    http://www.therpf.com/showthread.php?t=52

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