Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Post-release)

DaddyfromNaboo said:

...What I am asking myself is at what point into the movie did those people who complain about the similarities to ANH started to predict the outcoming of the movie?

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For me it was pretty much the first moment they showed the Starkiller Base in action. They had already shown Poe Dameron to be a more-than-capable pilot, so my first thought was, "Okay, that's not going to make it to the end of the movie."

That being said, I'm not one of those who have complained about the similarities. Yes, there are things in The Force Awakens that I have issues with, but they're minor quibbles and I like the movie anyway.

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/showdowns/chart/?id=liberge.htm

I don't think it'll catch Avatar, but does it really have to? There's a lot of great info in that link.

- TFA has been open for just about 4 weeks. Avatar was in theaters for 34 weeks.
- 70+% of Avatar and Titanic's worldwide box office came from the foreign market... TFA foreign take is just over 50% of it's total box office.

It's hard to tell what type of legs the movie will have after only 4 weeks. I'll bet that TFA gets a theatrical re-release sometime before Rogue One comes out(both Avatar and Titanic did this as well which boosted their overall totals) as well.

The Wook said:

Ad hominem attacks are not allowed on the RPF. Even passive-aggressive ones, in which you don't have the guts to call me by name.

The Wook

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Wow, congratulations on making everything about you. That's a pretty bold assumption. Guilty conscience? Sorry to disappoint, but no I wasn't making a passive aggressive ad hominem attack on you. Though I can see why you might think that, with all the hate you're spewing.

Zombie_61 said:

For me it was pretty much the first moment they showed the Starkiller Base in action. They had already shown Poe Dameron to be a more-than-capable pilot, so my first thought was, "Okay, that's not going to make it to the end of the movie."

That being said, I'm not one of those who have complained about the similarities. Yes, there are things in The Force Awakens that I have issues with, but they're minor quibbles and I like the movie anyway.

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For me it was when I saw the starkiller base on the poster.


That's when it shifted from "continuing saga" to "soft reboot"

Michael Bergeron said:

Funny, amongst common movie goers I don't think I've heard ANY bad press.

Most of my co-workers used to roll their eyes if I ever talked about Star Wars, now as the resident geek I have people coming up to me all the time wanting to talk about it. Almost all want to see it again.

Also, my social media feed and most reviews I've read have beed positive with a few very vocal exceptions.

Sounds to me like some people just desperately WANT the idea of bad press hurting it to be true. Using a mediocre Chinese launch, that was predicted, as evidence is really scraping the barrel.

Box office retention has been good. No, it likely won't beat Avatar worldwide but to call that a failure is just silly.

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I've heard nothing but praise for TFA, even from people in my age group who saw the originals back in the seventies, so mid to late fifties then. Many commented on some of the similarities but most thoroughly enjoyed it. The younger generation appears to have embraced it even more strongly.
I agree it will decline more steeply from now,but that was because cinemas showed it on many multiple screenings from 10.00am to 10.00pm far more than is usual for any release, even a Marvel film. Talking to staff at my local cinema yesterday they said they had a fantastically busy christmas with it but the sheer quantity of showings meant just about everybody who wanted to see it GOT to see it then. They had sell outs for shows for weeks and the weekends are still very busy.
And the manager said ,that unlike Avatar, that had a slower box office build over a longer period on a far more limited number of screens ( because the equipment changes in theatres to show the NEW 3D was at a very much more smaller number then) the market has changed drastically since ,so the rule is hit it hard and fast now, before copies start flooding the internet.They are even carrying the advert for the DVD release with the film and advertising the on line release of it via Sky movies.
But its ridiculous to say its a "failure". It has faults true but sometimes, its worth giving things a little time to just to sink in.I watched it for a second time yesterday, almost a month since I saw it first. So it was ,unsurprisingly , a better, more relaxed and enjoyable experience (and I liked it well enough the first time!) and I was able to absorb so much more. It also helped to get my favorite spot smack bang in the middle of the theatre and at a quieter time.
It really does deserve the praise ( and box office) its been getting. Having watched all the other six again and having had time to think things over .I really would advise anyone who dislikes TFA on a first viewing to give it a second chance ,particularly with all the benefits of reading some of the posts in this thread. But as there are more than a few points I want to comment on (and I may be repeating stuff but at a hundred pages thats not a shock) I'll list them separately.

Well here's the thing. Starkiller base at least for me was a bit of background noise to the whole finale. For people who weren't spoiled then the whole Hans son killing him and the story arch of the new characters and finding Luke would not have been predicted. That's all the story with starkiller base esp the x-wing attack was to me,background noise while the whole Han/Ben thing was happening. Tell me,to people unlike us who didn't know would it have been predicted?


Ben

Agreed.The bit that most people comment on as a direct copy is the Starkiller base, but the first half of the film is very much its own beast, particularly regarding the three main characters. Watching Daisy and John also felt quite different to ANH. Its a much more dynamic openning than ANH and continues that way through out the entire film, though this time it did seem to have more of the quieter moments I missed the first time, simply I think because it was brand new to me then.
They do try to present the SKbase as a "hyperlight" weapon to that of the lazers of the Death Star ,though quite how that works didn't come across well but it sounds like it drains the dark matter energies from a sun, which then shut its normal thermal reactions down. It did feel a bit different, now I'm over the "Oh bloody hell its another DS" first reaction and I'd have preffered something better but it still works. I found I didn't react as strongly against it as I first did.
What I also got this time was the central star systems are also very much closer together, not so spread out like the thousands of the outter rim ones, so that helped to account ( to a certain degree) as to why everything happens so quickly and closely together (and just why Luke could hide in the outer reaches for so long and so undetected).It also explained why everyone could see what happens to the New Republic planet system from Mazs castle and the Resistance base. Still not good but its a better pass.
You also saw the NRs huge fleet being wiped out in the blast ,and I noted there were several FO SDs glimpsed orbiting the SK base during the first attack in the background which I missed the first time . So I guess the reason we didn't see much in the way of space battles in this one is that there will be plenty now in VIII. I do wish they had done a better job explaining the political situation by leaving some scenes (or sentances in), but I guess they felt Leias reveal when she first meets Han at the resistance base was a more impactful introduction. And their coversation seems more natural and less contrived this time as well. It certainly felt better
Ben does appear to have been pushed by Leia into training with Luke, which makes me wonder if he was as strong in the Force as we might have thought originally. And its that disagreement over his future and Kylos terrible act that finally forced Han and Leia apart.
Han clearly says Snoke is using Ben and will cast him aside and its interesting that Kylo doesn't disagree with him with any anger at all. I really did feel Kylo was handing over his sabre to Han with open palms on the bridge, yet just at the moment the star dies he suddenly grips it, ignites the blade and spears his father and he does seem shocked by his actions.And Chewie really does smack him with the bowcaster and he doesn't go down with his wounds ( I just wish Han hadn't made the same joke twice about how powerful it was though, once on the freighter ,the second time at the castle). Second time around it was a very powerful scene.
Other things I picked up on was that its two separate spies at Mazs castle that alert the Resistance and FO to the presence of BB8 there ,which is why both forces turn up almost together.
And I don't know quite why but both Snoke and Maz looked much better this time around and the soundtrack was much clearer and cleaner. Yet it was on the same screen as I saw it the first time. Has anyone else noticed any difference?
This is also getting a bit long so I'll post a whole other section on Rey.

This:

Zombie_61 said:

For me it was pretty much the first moment they showed the Starkiller Base in action. They had already shown Poe Dameron to be a more-than-capable pilot, so my first thought was, "Okay, that's not going to make it to the end of the movie."

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and this:

astroboy said:

For me it was when I saw the starkiller base on the poster.
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are my personal main gripes about the new movie. Apart from IMO looking really silly how the Starkiller Base was placed in the poster layout ("Goldarn it, a POKEBALL is an important character in the new SW?!" it of course gave away a plot device.
But then again, we have a main difference to SW here. The main agenda of our heroes in ANH was the destruction of the Death Star. The destruction of the DS was the McGuffin.
In TFA the Starkiller Base is not much more than a side note in the first two acts. And the hastily cobbled together plan for its destruction almost fails. If Finn had not fooled the Resistance into believing that he could disable the shields, just so he could save Rey, the Starkiller Base wouldn´t have been destroyed.

If TFA is a "Carbon copy" of ANH, then TFA is IMO actually the better ANH.

I saw it again with my son today and the soundtrack seemed to pop a bit more this time. It was a lot louder. Maybe they've had issues?On another note I'm getting more familiar with the soundtrack too. Picking up certain themes.I love Rey's theme and the opening with the star destroyer too.I have to say I'm most looking forward to following Rey's future adventures. Not just because she cute. She's adorable in every way and Ridley is just a fantastic actress.


Ben

Yeah again I totally agree. Whether its because I've been listening to the soundtrack alot I felt John Williams score for Rey (and the film) was much stronger than the first time I heard it ,more haunting and filled with trepidation for the future, as is her journey through the story . I also noticed alot more about her this time.
For example alot of people have problems with her piloting skills but she does say she was a pilot "but never off world" to Finn after their escape in the MF and she obviously already has a strong knowledge of the Falcon because of the work she'd done on it before ie it sounds like she discussed fitting the compressor and had been trying to get the ship flxed for her "boss" Unkar. Which kind of makes sense when you see him holding her hand as a child. That and her working knowledge of spacecraft from the parts she has recovered over the years really fits in well with everything else her character does. Shes already a very strong fighter before she gets her hands on a sabre, as you can clearly see by the kind of beating she gives those guys (and Finn) for trying to steal BB8 with her staff (interestingly shes still carrying it when she goes to see Luke).
This time I felt she had had a huge falling out with Unkar Plutt, which was why she was living like she was. He ,in effect, was reducing her rations ,for some reason, to punish her. This may have linked to the Constables Zuvio subplot that disappeared in the cuts but I can only guess. But I have to say Daisy Ridley manages to give her character such depth and honesty at the proper moments that she really pulls off a hugely impressive performance. I really bought into Rey this time, particularly as regards her awakening to the Force.
She does seem almost to be brain washed (as is the case in the power of her force vision) that one day her "family" will return for her , so she has to remain on Jakku but she doesn't truely seem clear at all as to who that is (but she looks awfully young in that shot anyway so what would she really remember), but the X wing pilot puppet and helmet could be suggestive.
It does seem strange that its Unkars hand she is holding, I'd have thought it would be Max Von Sydows character, BUT if Plutt got the Falcon in exchange for keeping her (rather than it being stolen as Solo thinks ) that the impulse to remain on Jakku when she seems to have all the mechanics skills that would get her off planet on a ship does seem more odd now.
Was the Force used on her ? Certainly her latent force skills, triggered once she touches the lightsabre which are then really accelerated when interrogated by Kylo Ren do feel more reasonable when you take it into consideration this time around. Something is pouring into her, but I'm not certain what side of the Force it is. Her fighting style with Ren at the end seemed more like that of Darth Sidious in ROTS than anyone else I've seen , and her powers felt darker than Lukes. She'd literally have made toast of Kylo if that ground hadn't torn open. She is obviously hugely more powerful that he ever was (or may ever be).
And her fear of the sabre after the visions was almost like part of the mindblock had been taken away . Maz would surely have known if Luke had had a daughter ,given her interest in the Jedi. And Maz Kanatas name also interests me. Didn't catch it the first time but if you shifted the "t" and "n" around you get "Katana", which is the japanese word for a samurai sword, which is rather ironic when you consider she had Lukes sabre there all the time.
So this time I really don't feel this time she is directly related to either of the two Skywalkers despite all the linked visions particularly at the end. Luke doesn't seem to recognise her at all,nor seem to really want to even acknowledge her presense there even as she offers him his sabre and I saw only pain and uncertainy in his face more than anything else.He makes no move towards her at all. So shes probably not his daughter but may have links to the students he may have trained and lost. He'd have kept tabs on her on Jakku via Max Von Sydow otherwise, who having worked with Leia and Luke and knowing Kylo would surely have given the map to her NOT Poe to find Luke at the proper time.
Han obviously doesn't know her,even though he offers her a job, its more like he needs her skills and youth more than it being anything else. And I feel that when Leia walks right past Chewie at the end its because she feels she has such a strong Force connection with Rey and her pain, just like she did with Luke in TESB and ROTJ, rather than anything else. Remember this is the first time shes come into mental contact with any "Jedi" since the loss of Luke and her son, so its bound to overwhelm her along with her grief.
And Chewie who is still injured and in terrible grief from Hans death needs to seek treatment at the resistance base from the nurse at the same time as Finn ( and he had already got a fine hug and greeting from Leia when he first arrived with Han, so seeing her so immediately after his death was probably too painful to bear).
But it is noticable that R2 comes to life WHEN Rey appears for the first time at the base at the end. Don't ask me why, but it is R2 that does accompany her with Chewie to see Luke, NOT BB8. So there is some connection there.
So I think the choice of her parentage could be from anywhere. Nobody knows what relatives Palpatine had before he became a Sith or Shimi Skywalker, and IF the Knights of Ren were hunting down ALL the new Jedi that Snoke feels so threatened by it would make sense to split people up, but it must have been extreme to leave a small child with such as Plutt .
Interestingly I think this has been mentioned before but the name Rey translates in Latin as King or Queen

Disney releases full soundtrack www.jwfan.com/?p=8489

Speaking of Rey being lwft in Unkar Plutts care. I cannot imagine what this may have done to her emotionaally wise. Maybe far worse than what happened to Luke and especially Anakin.
Perhaps we are going to see a reversal in the force teachings once she is reunited with her parents?

Yeah that's a strong point, most of everything we see could be the result of that emotional trauma. No parent would ever have left their child in such a precarious situation unless the alternative was absolutely terrifying. And Rey marking the AT AT walls with the single days passing made it look like she was totally a prisoner of circumstance but was expecting a rescue, even if as a small child that was just the desperate hope she was still clinging onto like a dream. Literally like a war orphan very switched into an utterly self survival mode. Which is why I felt she felt more dangerous than Kylo when she "awoke" ,he was more like thrashing,kicking stallion, she had all the quiet deadly intent of a tigress. It is perhaps one of the best performances of any SW actor, well up there with Marks Luke in TESB with Yoda.
I doubt that I will watch it again now before it comes out on bluray DVD. I just want to let it sink in a bit deeper then look at it again with the benefit of even more hindsight. I hope do they correct a couple of things ,like BB8 rolling past the quadflyer on his way to the Falcon AFTER its already been blown up, and a couple of other things.I hope that we get an extended addition later on ,particularly covering the first half of the film on Jakku, it would real help bring out even more of Reys character and that Abu Dhabi shoot was terrific ,as were nearly all the built sets. I didn't know until I read the " Art of "but the pine forest at the end was completely made in a studio! Brilliant work there and in many other places. It has some of the most realistically beautiful shots of any SW film yet. I've increased my appreciation of it by a good margin this time around.

DaddyfromNaboo said:

Wook, have you read the article?
What I am asking myself is at what point into the movie did those people who complain about the similarities to ANH started to predict the outcoming of the movie?

Aren't e.g. James Bond movies always following the same structure to the point of being carbon copies of each other and aelf referencing?

I think those who did not like the movie and because of it lost their sw love should wait for Ep8 for a final verdict.

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For me, it was one eye roll after another, at the egregious plot line ripoffs from ANH. I was so appalled, so nonplussed at what I was watching, I couldn't imagine the ripoffs would continue throughout the entire film.

I walked out of the theater crestfallen. Saw it a second time a week later...same result, just slightly less shocked, since it was my second viewing.

The TFA FAIL hasn't caused me to lose my love of SW. I still rank ANH and ESB as my favorite films ever! And this TFA turd has made the Prequels look better. I'd rather watch any one of them, including TPM, instead of TFA again.

I went into TFA spoiler-free, and cautiously optimistic, that JJ being one of us, a fan who fell in love with Star Wars as a kid in that magical summer of '77, and who didn't like the SEs, and who didn't love the PT, would create a new SW film that captured the look and feel of ANH & ESB, while giving us a new original story. Well, he failed miserably--on both accounts, but especially the latter.

So, ever the optimist, I hope Disney, and Rian Johnson and Lawrence Kasdan and Trevor Somebody and whomever else makes the next Star Wars movies, will come up with something new, recapturing...NOT THE PLOTLINES...but the look and feel of ANH & ESB. Having said that, after the total FAIL of TFA, if Disney keeps putting out crappy SW movies--carbon copy crap or original crap--I will not be a bit surprised.

The Wook

They could have had a great film if only they trusted themselves to make one.

Lucas was raked over the coals for making a second death star.

And the first criticism of TPM people had were it's token nods to ANH. even the Droid control ship looked like the death star.


"It's like a poem. It rhymes"

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astroboy said:

They could have had a great film if only they trusted themselves to make one.

Lucas was raked over the coals for making a second death star.

And the first criticism of TPM people had were it's token nods to ANH. even the Droid control ship looked like the death star.


"It's like a poem. It rhymes"

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?
Nods to ANH

Kevin Gossett said:

Wow, congratulations on making everything about you. That's a pretty bold assumption. Guilty conscience? Sorry to disappoint, but no I wasn't making a passive aggressive ad hominem attack on you. Though I can see why you might think that, with all the hate you're spewing.

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Who were you calling a hack, then? Michael Bay? M. Night Shyamalan? Dee, the sarcastic sister from What's Happening?!

C'mon, let's see if your answer passes the giggle test.

The Wook

I don't completely disagree with some of the sentiments of those that are disappointed by elements of TFA but here is the real rub:
Get the first one wrong by taking a risk with the entire direction and story of the franchise and they'd have put themselves in desperate trouble for the rest of it. Just look at the bile that is continually heaped on the Prequels to this day and, lets be honest, it looks like some were hopeful that the same kind of disaster would have happened to Disney just for daring to buy it off Lucas. They would have been severely attacked from all quarters, by the fans ,by the critics,by the on line bloggers, media and press , the shareholders, all those valuable merchandising contacts would have gone up in smoke. Really ,there was a number of people just sharpening the knives, ready for a slagging festival.
So they were forced to play safe.Mostly. But they still took a lot of risks with the story eg Rey as a lead character . SW ,like most sci fi is a notoriously male dominated arena ,yet ,"Hunger Games" style,they went with Rey (and cast Daisy Ridley) and it was a brilliant move. Rey is one of the strongest characters ever to grace the SW universe. The same with Finn,as a rebeling stormtrooper. And the small matter of Han being killed by his own son, who is a borderline pyschopath. Vader was evil, but Ren comes across as being genuinely disturbed. Oh and Luke Skywalker barely appears in any of it. When you consider all of that, then there were some very uncertain decisions that could have been disasterious for the film . But its actually these elements that are being most applauded, and so many of the critisisms are thus reduced to simply knocking the remaining similarites to the OT, and they are quite entitled to an extent. These are weaknesses BUT they are not the fatal ones, not like the Prequels ,where just about everything felt as possibly wrong as they could have got it.
The real risk comes with the next two. If you've read any of the EU stories you'll release alot of them completely repeat everything in the OT or have very old sci fi tropes drafted in and so its going to be hard to bring in anything that is seen as being FRESH and ORIGINAL. They've managed to do that with the character set ups with this one alone. Its what they WILL do with them now thats going to really count with the audiences.
Given how this movie has ended we are left with that hopeful option. We could actually see the new beginnings of the Jedi order ,rather than jumping in, just like the prequels, with Luke having an already established order (so there will be no critisims of "oh they are just copying Anakins story" with Kylo and Snoke). Hiring Rian is a BIG risk, because his style of writing is VERY edgy and upredictable, which is why Looper and Brick are such a great films, they are very strong character pieces who skim the edge of the moral precipice.
So don't worry all is not lost if you hated this one. I've a gut feeling that the next two are going to be as dark and unsettling as you may have hoped for in a SW movie. And then there is "Rogue One" plus the Solo and Fett movies. They could go in another direction, as different in tone as the Marvel films. The success of this film with the broader audiences now buys them the safety to take gambles with all the others, especially risky ones like a Boba Fett movie.

Just back from watching it.

My neck is sore from shaking my head.

Appalling screenplay

Appalling cast (maybe rey was okay)

Appalling dialogue

Appalling director

Some really shoddy special effects.

I was actually embarrassed i had dragged my friend to see it.

I can't think of one single thing that impressed me.

-z

zorg said:

Appalling dialogue

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It's odd to me that people keep bringing up the great dialogue. One of the aspects I was looking forward to when it was announced, was seeing the foursome together again. Now, not only will that never happen, but the scenes between Han and Leia were easily as cringe-inducing as the worst of the prequel dialogue.

Mostly, Han and Leia weren't talking to each other. They were talking to the audience, it was extremely poorly executed exposition. Just awful. A totally wasted opportunity. Part of the reason Han's death didn't affect me, was that it just didn't feel like the character I grew up with was who died onscreen. Not to mention (as I think I already did) that Leia and Chewie hug when they first see each other, then ignore each other after Han dies. Don't tell me that maybe Chewie blames Leia, etc. That could have been handled with a half second shot of Chewie glaring at her. It was just extremely sloppy filmmaking.