SmilingOtter
Master Member
I posted the above back in August...And yep, I feel really bad.
Last edited by a moderator:
Star Trek: Discovery (2017)
- Thread starter mkstewartesq
- Start date
I posted the above back in August...And yep, I feel really bad.
robn1
Master Member
Bore drive :sleep
@PotionMistress, @CessnaDriver, @CutThumb... What you guys have said? I feel that to the marrow. I, like others in this thread, feel like the people making this haven't watched Star Trek -- beyond maybe some gif-sets that gave them some tropes to work in to make it "look like Star Trek". There are so many things that people think they "know" about Star Trek from public zeitgeist. Kirk the womanizer, the Vulcan death grip, "Beam me up, Scotty"... And then are amazed when it's pointed out them that there is no Vulcan death grip, "Beam me up, Scotty" was never uttered in the entire series, and Kirk...
Kirk is one of the most romantically tragic figures I've ever run across. He was so focused on being in Starfleet he hardly left his room when he didn't need to be in class. He had to be fixed up on dates and was an utter bookworm. Somewhere in there, he met and dated Ruth, but left her for his career, a choice which haunted him for over a decade. He got together with Carol Marcus, but she broke things off with him over philosophical differences. He fell in love with Edith Keeler and had to watch her die in order to save his whole reality. He fell in love with Miramanee, and had to watch her die when the two of them got stoned (in a bad way) by the other villagers. He fell in love with Rayna, and had to watch her die when she couldn't cope with the emotional conflict she was going through over both him and Methuselah. He loved and married Lori Ciana, only to watch her die in a transporter malfunction (TMP). He retired from Starfleet, met and took up with Antonia, and -- as with Ruth years before -- felt he had to leave her to go back to Starfleet.
In several instances in TOS, he did take advantage of various female heads-of-state or otherwise useful positions who were attracted to him in order to save his ship and/or crew. A couple he was actually fond of, but not to the point he felt the need to invite them to come with.
But one thing he wasn't was how he was presented in JJ-Trek. He's frikkin' Horatio Hornblower.
I say all this because there is a way to present the period, in line with what is already known, and have it be good. And they're not. It's agonizing. First and foremost, they need to reach some kind of agreement where they can actually frikkin' use TOS imagery -- the consoles, the uniforms, the props... That'd go a long way. But... *thinks* ...Start in the 2220s with the "disastrous" First Contact with the Klingons, with whatever reciprocal misunderstandings were involved. Southern, Chang-style, smoother-headed Klingons. Around the same time is when the Starship Project was initiated, which would lead to the Constitution class in another twenty years.
Or else start in the 2240s, where that's already happened, and the Constitution is just being launched (or, per the lore, the Enterprise, under Captain April, as the Constitution had construction delays that resulted in it being launched second). Show the conflict between April's idealism and the deteriorating relations with the Klingons.
Or else, as Discovery is trying to do, as Axanar was purporting to be intending to do... Start it in the 2250s. Pike and the Enterprise are off somewhere else. But, even with the high rate of attrition, there are other Constitution class vessels around. You know, big, well-equipped starships with warp-8 engines and lots of defensive and scientific systems, intended to go out and explore unknown space? But there's plenty to mine. Things are tense with the Klingons. They attack a Federation colony on Archanis IV. Captain Garth of the USS Xenophon tracks the raiding force back to Axanar and counterattacks. This leads to open war, later known as the Four Years War. The Andorians get closer to the Humans at this time, being a warrior race. They become more participatory in Starfleet, culminating in the Andorian-designed Loknar class Frigate. The Vulcans are coldly disapproving of the conflict, and refuse Starfleet's attempts to get them involved (echoes of the Romulans in the Dominion War?). Ultimately, the Humans pull themselves back and end things diplomatically. "Newly fledged cadet" James Kirk is part of the Axanar Peace Mission, and is awarded the Palm Leaf of Axanar (all that can be utterly easter-egg cameo level content).
War, in and of itself, isn't "un-Star Trek". How it's handled is important, though. How it starts and why, how it's waged, how we wrestle with it, how it's ended. It's actually a spectacular way to grapple with moral and philosophical questions. At least as good as juxtaposing us against new alien races we encounter. In both cases, if it's handled well. When it's handled badly... Well, IMO, we get Enterprise, Discovery, and JJ-Trek. No offense to those who like those series, but I feel they drop the ball, and hard.
The best part of the Four Years War would be the denoument. A little while after, Starfleet gets exasperated at the Vulcans still not acknowledging that they ended the war diplomatically rather than militarily, and sent an expeditionary force to their world. They sent all their newest and best starships, showing off their science labs and sensors and science specialists... Laid out for them the notion of the Five Year Missions, of discovery and peaceful exploration. And finally getting them to participate. Spock enrolling in Starfleet preceded this, yes, but we know that story -- he wasn't representative of his people or their attitudes. No, the immediate result of the Vulcanian Expedition would be the entirely-Vulcan-crewed Miranda class Starfleet science vessel USS Intrepid. The first step toward the cooperation we see over the next century-plus.
The scaffolding of the story is already there. No torture. No bad science. No unlikable characters. No Idiot Plots. No redundant hero ship. No Human raised on Vulcan (so far, I'm not seeing what relevance that adds to Michael's character at all). I've seen people argue that the Prime Directive doesn't exist yet. I call BS on that. It's Starfleet's General Order #1. #7 forbids contact with Talos IV and doesn't exist yet, but will soon. General Order #1 would have been codified around the Founding of the Federation, or Chartering of Starfleet, adapted from the Vulcans' own non-interference guidelines. At any rate, it's been around for a while by this point, so there's no excuse or justification for Our Heroes to be acting like thugs and war-criminals right out of the gate.
--Jonah
Kirk is one of the most romantically tragic figures I've ever run across. He was so focused on being in Starfleet he hardly left his room when he didn't need to be in class. He had to be fixed up on dates and was an utter bookworm. Somewhere in there, he met and dated Ruth, but left her for his career, a choice which haunted him for over a decade. He got together with Carol Marcus, but she broke things off with him over philosophical differences. He fell in love with Edith Keeler and had to watch her die in order to save his whole reality. He fell in love with Miramanee, and had to watch her die when the two of them got stoned (in a bad way) by the other villagers. He fell in love with Rayna, and had to watch her die when she couldn't cope with the emotional conflict she was going through over both him and Methuselah. He loved and married Lori Ciana, only to watch her die in a transporter malfunction (TMP). He retired from Starfleet, met and took up with Antonia, and -- as with Ruth years before -- felt he had to leave her to go back to Starfleet.
In several instances in TOS, he did take advantage of various female heads-of-state or otherwise useful positions who were attracted to him in order to save his ship and/or crew. A couple he was actually fond of, but not to the point he felt the need to invite them to come with.
But one thing he wasn't was how he was presented in JJ-Trek. He's frikkin' Horatio Hornblower.
I say all this because there is a way to present the period, in line with what is already known, and have it be good. And they're not. It's agonizing. First and foremost, they need to reach some kind of agreement where they can actually frikkin' use TOS imagery -- the consoles, the uniforms, the props... That'd go a long way. But... *thinks* ...Start in the 2220s with the "disastrous" First Contact with the Klingons, with whatever reciprocal misunderstandings were involved. Southern, Chang-style, smoother-headed Klingons. Around the same time is when the Starship Project was initiated, which would lead to the Constitution class in another twenty years.
Or else start in the 2240s, where that's already happened, and the Constitution is just being launched (or, per the lore, the Enterprise, under Captain April, as the Constitution had construction delays that resulted in it being launched second). Show the conflict between April's idealism and the deteriorating relations with the Klingons.
Or else, as Discovery is trying to do, as Axanar was purporting to be intending to do... Start it in the 2250s. Pike and the Enterprise are off somewhere else. But, even with the high rate of attrition, there are other Constitution class vessels around. You know, big, well-equipped starships with warp-8 engines and lots of defensive and scientific systems, intended to go out and explore unknown space? But there's plenty to mine. Things are tense with the Klingons. They attack a Federation colony on Archanis IV. Captain Garth of the USS Xenophon tracks the raiding force back to Axanar and counterattacks. This leads to open war, later known as the Four Years War. The Andorians get closer to the Humans at this time, being a warrior race. They become more participatory in Starfleet, culminating in the Andorian-designed Loknar class Frigate. The Vulcans are coldly disapproving of the conflict, and refuse Starfleet's attempts to get them involved (echoes of the Romulans in the Dominion War?). Ultimately, the Humans pull themselves back and end things diplomatically. "Newly fledged cadet" James Kirk is part of the Axanar Peace Mission, and is awarded the Palm Leaf of Axanar (all that can be utterly easter-egg cameo level content).
War, in and of itself, isn't "un-Star Trek". How it's handled is important, though. How it starts and why, how it's waged, how we wrestle with it, how it's ended. It's actually a spectacular way to grapple with moral and philosophical questions. At least as good as juxtaposing us against new alien races we encounter. In both cases, if it's handled well. When it's handled badly... Well, IMO, we get Enterprise, Discovery, and JJ-Trek. No offense to those who like those series, but I feel they drop the ball, and hard.
The best part of the Four Years War would be the denoument. A little while after, Starfleet gets exasperated at the Vulcans still not acknowledging that they ended the war diplomatically rather than militarily, and sent an expeditionary force to their world. They sent all their newest and best starships, showing off their science labs and sensors and science specialists... Laid out for them the notion of the Five Year Missions, of discovery and peaceful exploration. And finally getting them to participate. Spock enrolling in Starfleet preceded this, yes, but we know that story -- he wasn't representative of his people or their attitudes. No, the immediate result of the Vulcanian Expedition would be the entirely-Vulcan-crewed Miranda class Starfleet science vessel USS Intrepid. The first step toward the cooperation we see over the next century-plus.
The scaffolding of the story is already there. No torture. No bad science. No unlikable characters. No Idiot Plots. No redundant hero ship. No Human raised on Vulcan (so far, I'm not seeing what relevance that adds to Michael's character at all). I've seen people argue that the Prime Directive doesn't exist yet. I call BS on that. It's Starfleet's General Order #1. #7 forbids contact with Talos IV and doesn't exist yet, but will soon. General Order #1 would have been codified around the Founding of the Federation, or Chartering of Starfleet, adapted from the Vulcans' own non-interference guidelines. At any rate, it's been around for a while by this point, so there's no excuse or justification for Our Heroes to be acting like thugs and war-criminals right out of the gate.
--Jonah
Last edited:
I still don't get how anyone who knows Trek lore can say Discovery is a SJW wet dream. Also, last I checked, plenty of Trek alums were involved in the show at some point.
Anyway, as much as I don't want to give people I've been debating a chance to say I TOLD YOU SO, I feel like the last episode jumped a shark or seven. I'll finish out the season, and I still love the look of it-- but I agree its losing touch with it's core ideals. Which, btw-- is not antiSJW rhetoric, pure exploration stories, or anything tangible like that-- it's about a sense of hope for the future and being better humans-- not winning a war.
I will say that instead of saying the show was going to be terrible from the second it was announced, then only watching it just to complain and edify my opinion, I gave it a chance at judged it on its own merits.
Anyway, as much as I don't want to give people I've been debating a chance to say I TOLD YOU SO, I feel like the last episode jumped a shark or seven. I'll finish out the season, and I still love the look of it-- but I agree its losing touch with it's core ideals. Which, btw-- is not antiSJW rhetoric, pure exploration stories, or anything tangible like that-- it's about a sense of hope for the future and being better humans-- not winning a war.
I will say that instead of saying the show was going to be terrible from the second it was announced, then only watching it just to complain and edify my opinion, I gave it a chance at judged it on its own merits.
To be fair, I only said it was marketed in that way. I never said it delivered on that marketing promise.
Zombie_61
Master Member
If the rumors are true, Meyer is already working on a "double secret" Star Trek series directly for CBS--allegedly actually set in the Original Series timeline, and showing what Khan Noonien Singh was doing on Ceti Alpha V all those years. So he may yet show Discovery's behind-the-scenes crew how it's supposed to be done.
I’ve watched all four episodes with an open mind and was really hoping that Star Trek was back. I do not mind CBS trying new things but after four episodes, I just cannot get into this “Walking Trek” series.
I miss the single episodes and this last episode was just a filler episode where absolutely nothing happens that interested me. I have not been able to relate or care about anyone on the series as not one character is likeable and most are killed off immediately before you even get to know them or care. That really sums up the series for me: I don’t care about anyone or anything that is happening. Sad. I was really pulling for it to be a success.
I cannot see Nicholas Meyer’s input in any of this but maybe I am wrong.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
I miss the single episodes and this last episode was just a filler episode where absolutely nothing happens that interested me. I have not been able to relate or care about anyone on the series as not one character is likeable and most are killed off immediately before you even get to know them or care. That really sums up the series for me: I don’t care about anyone or anything that is happening. Sad. I was really pulling for it to be a success.
I cannot see Nicholas Meyer’s input in any of this but maybe I am wrong.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
jlee562
Sr Member
There's nothing inherently wrong with most of the decisions that have been made (Klingon war; serialization; etc), but the execution is off. And the poor execution is the most consistent thing about the show.
There are bits of Trek sprinkled throughout. Obviously they were going for something approaching the Horta storyline here, but then it gets so convoluted with a "super computer" mutant tardigrade who eats space mushroom spores, but also "communicates" with said space mushrooms (and oh yeah, space mushrooms are a thing for some reason).
There's a kernel of a good plot there, about Starfleet exploiting a sentient lifeform for its own gains, but it's buried beneath a mountain of nonsense, like so much Klingon prosthetics.
I did tune into the aftershow....don't bother. One of the writers did mention that next week's episode would delve more into the spore drive. That makes me think that the rollout of the show has actually been done in the worst way possible. Even if they wanted to use it to launch their streaming service, they should have put the whole season online like Netflix does. The first episode needed the second to be worthwhile. Now if this episode needs the next episode to make any sense of their technobabble, they should have let us binge watch it. Or, you know, structure the narrative so that the audience knows why they're supposed to care.
There are bits of Trek sprinkled throughout. Obviously they were going for something approaching the Horta storyline here, but then it gets so convoluted with a "super computer" mutant tardigrade who eats space mushroom spores, but also "communicates" with said space mushrooms (and oh yeah, space mushrooms are a thing for some reason).
There's a kernel of a good plot there, about Starfleet exploiting a sentient lifeform for its own gains, but it's buried beneath a mountain of nonsense, like so much Klingon prosthetics.
I did tune into the aftershow....don't bother. One of the writers did mention that next week's episode would delve more into the spore drive. That makes me think that the rollout of the show has actually been done in the worst way possible. Even if they wanted to use it to launch their streaming service, they should have put the whole season online like Netflix does. The first episode needed the second to be worthwhile. Now if this episode needs the next episode to make any sense of their technobabble, they should have let us binge watch it. Or, you know, structure the narrative so that the audience knows why they're supposed to care.
The problem with the Klingon redesign is you can tell they are wearing full face masks and no emotion can be seen through them. I was watching their scenes carefully and literally their mouths just open and close like “muppets.” Again no reason to relate or care about them or anyone else on the show.
Why is the tone of the show so dark? Reminds me of what WB is doing with the DC universe.
[QUOTE =AJK001;4330551]The problem is they have not given us anything or anyone to care about. Frankly the only character I'm caring about is the Klingon Torchbearer, I can't remember his name which is bad in of itself, that got double crossed and left behind.[/QUOTE]
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Why is the tone of the show so dark? Reminds me of what WB is doing with the DC universe.
[QUOTE =AJK001;4330551]The problem is they have not given us anything or anyone to care about. Frankly the only character I'm caring about is the Klingon Torchbearer, I can't remember his name which is bad in of itself, that got double crossed and left behind.[/QUOTE]
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Bones_68
Sr Member
Meyer could do something great if the executives stay out of his way, although a show about Khan seems like a pretty limited storyline. I imagine there won't be a whole lot of Trekkin' going on with a guy marooned on a planet.
I'm sure CBS would be happy with that. They wouldn't have to build any sets and can just go shoot the entire series in the desert outside of LA using a couple of cargo containers.
The past few years have made me hate prequels as a rule.
Zombie_61
Master Member
IMDb has him listed as a "consulting producer" on two episodes, and as part of the writing staff on "unknown episodes", so we really have little idea about how involved he is or how much influence he has.
I thought the same thing when I first heard about the rumor; to me it made even less sense than a Star Trek series set on a space station in the middle of nowhere. Meyer himself has reportedly made some vague comments about it in semi-recent interviews, and if there's any truth to it at all I'm hoping the "Khan on Ceti Alpha V" talk is a smokescreen to hide what they're really up to.
BenCozine
Active Member
Disgusting hateful response, I wish I was surprised, but the hate people like you harbor lasts a lifetime. Please stop personally attacking members here who are not part of your attack plan.
Very sad.
Klingons eating their dead enemies? Was this established before at any point that Klingons are more savages than warriors?
The dialogues and single lines are sometimes so damn bad. So much unnecessary exposition.
Example: The security officer pointing out the style in which Michael Bernam is fighting as being Vulcan. Why? To add what, nerd depth? Heck, this is Trek, let US fill in the voids.
Example: The Captain explaining why he is in a dimly lit room and what he thinks how that may bring him across as a character. The captain having a bowl of fortune cookies on his table, offering his guest some, accompanied about a story about family business.
Example: Michaels roommate´s monologues, so damn over the top. NO need to over-characterize!
Example: The 1st Officer with those Fear glands eating blueberries while walking down a hallway to a Laboratory, and a small conversation about replicator quality. What the?!
It really feels like they are trying to FORCE Trek onto the audience. And maybe someone has a competition going about how to fill a Star Trek Wiki with as much unimportant stuff or "facts" as possible. Because nobody except for hardestcore desperate fans would remember such stuff. Blueberries?!
By the way and regarding "Force" was anyone else reminded of Qui Gons´ speech in Episode 1 when it came to space spores? So Treks tech is essentially using midichlorians for tracvelling, right?
Klingons eating their dead enemies? Was this established before at any point that Klingons are more savages than warriors?
The dialogues and single lines are sometimes so damn bad. So much unnecessary exposition.
Example: The security officer pointing out the style in which Michael Bernam is fighting as being Vulcan. Why? To add what, nerd depth? Heck, this is Trek, let US fill in the voids.
Example: The Captain explaining why he is in a dimly lit room and what he thinks how that may bring him across as a character. The captain having a bowl of fortune cookies on his table, offering his guest some, accompanied about a story about family business.
Example: Michaels roommate´s monologues, so damn over the top. NO need to over-characterize!
Example: The 1st Officer with those Fear glands eating blueberries while walking down a hallway to a Laboratory, and a small conversation about replicator quality. What the?!
It really feels like they are trying to FORCE Trek onto the audience. And maybe someone has a competition going about how to fill a Star Trek Wiki with as much unimportant stuff or "facts" as possible. Because nobody except for hardestcore desperate fans would remember such stuff. Blueberries?!
By the way and regarding "Force" was anyone else reminded of Qui Gons´ speech in Episode 1 when it came to space spores? So Treks tech is essentially using midichlorians for tracvelling, right?
I'm going to stick it out for a little while longer but if things don't get a LOT better soon I'm going to be cancelling my subscription.
I can't stand the subtitles and about the only characters I'm liking is the 1st Officer and the Chief Engineer because they are the only ones that don't seem to have some sort of agenda, at least not yet, and call people on their BS. It is like they are going out of their way to make some of the characters as repugnant as possible.
I can't stand the subtitles and about the only characters I'm liking is the 1st Officer and the Chief Engineer because they are the only ones that don't seem to have some sort of agenda, at least not yet, and call people on their BS. It is like they are going out of their way to make some of the characters as repugnant as possible.
SmilingOtter
Master Member
Last night I got mostly caught up on The Orville. It's much more Star Trek than Discovery is.
Don't get me wrong - it's certainly possible to do a darker, grittier Star Trek, and do it well. You just need different writers and designers than what Discovery has.
Don't get me wrong - it's certainly possible to do a darker, grittier Star Trek, and do it well. You just need different writers and designers than what Discovery has.
Lightning
Master Member
an upcoming plot twist may have been figured out, spoilers if true:
In the next episode they rescue Lt. Ash Tyler, who has been a POW of the Klingons since the Battle of the Binary Stars. But he isn't the real Tyler, he's the Albino Klingon Voq altered to appear human.
SmilingOtter
Master Member
My thoughts on that:
Is that their nod to TOS Klingons? They seem to be ignoring the augment virus.
Last edited:
Similar threads
- Locked
