Defining the OWK tunisia saber. Is it even possible?

did you look at my pic?

Yes. It looks nonslanted to me, but it gets less crisp from the background at the top edge. There does look to be a very dark lip (possibly) right in the middle at the end of the frag too. I'd just like to authenticate with more evidence.

...also, it just came to me, the error cut being long might also require the nonslanted ring. Other frags I've seen with cuts into the top ring are typically short, unless deep. The Tunisia saber error cut is long and appears to not change in depth drastically.
 
I think it's a different prop, probably the saber with the cone is the tunisia.
However it may be possible it the same prop, because nobody actually saw the pommel cap on archive saber, so it's possible there is no cap, as on the tunisia prop.
If so, this can be possible they made the tunisia and wanted to try a motorized version, that failed and rebuilded a new saber from the existing parts and replacing damaged parts (grenade?!), the tunisia has a cone, the archive has not.

About the grenade-windvane I share you opinion, the tunisia has different grenade variation, with "short" ring with no groove, and the frag body is different but I would more think about the parks version, small slope with cylindrical area.
The machines used for grenades have made many variation depending on settings, with no slope to a very strong slope, single grooves or double grooves (asymetric design), position of cubes can differ, making a less or more long sloped section, different brass trunks, with slope, diameter variation, different bases, with large or narrow rounded section, 4 or 5 different windvanes, from straight 1àmm short to grooved 13mm long, with or without engraving, there was at least two different engravings.
Only one thing looks constant, the brass base diameter is always 34mm in diameter or correct grenades variations, there is a smaller diameter but on a later version that is really different.
Wo seems there were also shorter diameters, edraven, would you have pics of entire grenades, are the threads identicl, I mean can a windvane from first go on second? and what is the diamter measurment on both?
If the variation is very small, I think it's just do to the very rough settings on machines, as they do for the groove or slopes, and not a different design.
About the pommels, there are at least 3 different caps for same cube and other parts, but I think there were no cap on obi sabers, reason why I machined a special core for the saber I sold.
Would be interesting to compare the emitter, clamp, booster and pommel on both sabers to check if these are the same pieces (especially emitter and clamp, easier)
I think one saber on death star is probably the tunisia, because of the cone.
 
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Might as well add these to go along with the one Dan posted.
 

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It's certainly possible there were two. I thought I had heard the story that the death star drop pretty much jacked it up though and it needed fixing... hence the chronicles version.

Either way, here's the best I have

View attachment 527060

There's a picture of the saber on the ground in Tunisia which some have taken of evidence that the saber was dropped. But I think it's actually more likely that AG just took it off his belt between shoots. These things do weigh a bit

Great version of the Tunisia pic. I think this one really shows the weird frag body. Also, since the groove in the top most ring doesn't flare or shrink towards the end of the frag body, this in my eyes lends credence to the idea that that last ring has no slope.

Dan
 
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Made this comparison so we have all OB1 sabers Tunesia vs Chronicles in one frame :

OB1 Chronicles vs Tunesia.jpg


OB1 Chronicles OB1-3.jpg


When I 'boxed' in the Tunesia saber from above picture with some blue transparent line ... I see this :

OB1 Tunesia01.jpg


Shadows and lights play tricks when judging props from pictures alone ... however I do notice the more rounded light 'blobs' on some of the fragment parts of the rings of the Tunesia grenade and to me, this does seem to suggest it is a much heavier damaged WW1 relic than the one from Chronicles with it's sharp edges, otherwise the light would reflect more evenly and not like 'blobs' as seen in the top comparison picture.
Here's another real grenade to emphasize these uneven light 'blobs' when the surface is more damaged :

15image_zpsqnf3e25v.JPG


Now another matter that's always bugged me ... is the shape of the
windvanes . . . most grenades I've seen for sale are 'smooth' :

hale%202-01_zpspz2xjbi7.JPG


Whereas the Chronicles saber windvane has clearly a 'ridge', for lack
of a better word, as seen perfectly on this grenade :

hale%205-02_zpsjxwvk7sl.JPG


Question is ... could the windvane for OB1 Chronicles have come from
a No.3MkII grenade with this neck instead? :

hale%204-01_zpszxbmdvme.JPG


And what is on the Tunesia lightsaber ... a windvane with or without a 'ridge'?

Chaim
 
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Thanks . . . now if the grenade is as you suggest Dan, which is all straight on top, . . . then it's a lot
more damaged than seen on this one :

No.3MkI%20-%20IWM2_zpsfpqsn7xb.JPG


and this previousy posted picture could suggest it does have a 'smooth' windvane :

OB1%20grenade-05_zpsn11ueq97.JPG


Chaim
 
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My other question for you guys is, do you see a different booster here?

To my eye, the fins look a little bit wider on the booster and the back of the booster (by the handwheel) looks to have a much more rounded edge to it then the chronicles version.

Dan
 
Thinking about these grenades:



If one is 33,5mm diameter and other 34,5mm diameter, it would just be the machining tolerances, probably one machined in a shop and other in another shop, but based on similar plans.

If you can forgive the crappiness of big yellow here, it appears that the diameter of my relic stem is about 31-32 mm... if you're saying that the normal diameter is about 34 mm... that's a pretty big difference...

IMG_1865.JPG

I also found this site last night trying to see if I could fine the picture that Dan was looking for:

http://flickrhivemind.net/Tags/alecguinness/Recent

It has some nice pictures in it but are low res, like this one:

 
The 34 mm diameter is the one I calculated on original chronicle saber photo, based from a 38mm outer diameter on frag body, and ID on the clamp.
I also calculated grooves depth, cubes lenght and slope from this picture, and then I compared with the real grenade I get ( 3 or 4, don't remmeber exactly) and found the exact 34mm diameter, also visible on parks grenades (rods can be switched, not easily, the replicas need to be forced to go in old ones, or vice versa, don't remember exactly)
These measurments are the one I gave to romans for his own grenade.
I have seen some variations, slopes groove shape and depth, cube lenght etc, but always found a 34mm average brass rod section, and always less or more switchable with romans parks stuff, sometimes would need some work, but nothing under or over half a millimeter.
If I remember correctly it's a 6mm long slope then a 5mm groove a 2,5mm cube etc etc
But adding these new informations, it would mean there are much more variations than I expected.
From 31 to 35 mm diameter, very large variations, can you confirm the threads are identical, or different?
If different threads exist, it would explain why russrep grenade si so different, even I never saw a different thread INSIDE the brass rod, on the windvane and on the rod base, If I remember correctly he used a 1/18" 60° tool (UNF or UNC, don't remember)and original are 1/14" 55° tool (withworth)(I may confuse with other threads values, it's quite a long time ago now)
I don't remember exactly the threads on the original stuff I get, but all were compatible with romans parks stuff for now, except a strange brass part like the one of bottom from chaim post, smaller thread diameter (about 30mm if my memory is correct)on mine.
Even the windvane grooves shape shown by sym cha can confirm there are many variations without any groove, with a very light groove shaped by deformation, or larger groove machined, U shaped like the russrep romans replicas, or half u shaped as the parks replicas.
I personnaly get the straight, very slight groove both about 10 or 11 mm long, and large U groove (longer windvane ring, about 13mm, all 3 were bent sheet, no machining, unlike actual replicas, but it's easy to see one from chaims photo has partially machined groove)
For me the tunisia has no groove and looks closer and closer to the weird grenade without slope.
Another photo from symcha also show a very soft slope even some grenades have quite stronger slope (archive saber), makes me think the tolerency variations were very larger than I expected, war time products, as the civil war era guns lol.
 
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I see a different "connection" between the balance pipe and the grenade in Chaim,s amazing comparison shot. The Tunisia seems to have the gap filled in, smooth, maybe even with a ridge. The chronicles shot has the sticky glue and we can see the rim/inside the BP.

i also see smoother corners on the Tunisia booster, as well as damage that is not on the chronicles shot.
 

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Here's a theory I've had for a while. We know the balance pipe and grenade from the Chronicles were in England due to the production stills from the Art Dept as seen in the Making of SW book.

I think the saber was designed and built in England, but a second was build in Africa due to the strict laws about inporting weapons into the country. Remember how the Sterlings the Sandtroopers used on location were those cut/welded/boltless ones also used in Zardoz? I think LFL only brought along the balance pipe, clamp set-up and hand wheel and they sourced the grenade and booster in country.

With the presence the British had in North Africa for so long leading up to 1976 it's not impossible to think that getting those parts locally and not having to import them through customs would have been easier. Although it probably means either the entire prop was left, or pieces were left, so it didn't have to go through British customs either (grenades/gun parts).
 
Here's a theory I've had for a while. We know the balance pipe and grenade from the Chronicles were in England due to the production stills from the Art Dept as seen in the Making of SW book.

I think the saber was designed and built in England, but a second was build in Africa due to the strict laws about inporting weapons into the country. Remember how the Sterlings the Sandtroopers used on location were those cut/welded/boltless ones also used in Zardoz? I think LFL only brought along the balance pipe, clamp set-up and hand wheel and they sourced the grenade and booster in country.

With the presence the British had in North Africa for so long leading up to 1976 it's not impossible to think that getting those parts locally and not having to import them through customs would have been easier. Although it probably means either the entire prop was left, or pieces were left, so it didn't have to go through British customs either (grenades/gun parts).


I don't think this makes sense because if this happened it would mean that they would have to set up a prop shop abroad and also they'd be travelin on a hope and a prayer that production doesn't get slowed down if they can't find the part they needed.
Remember the stunt blasters were used in Tunisia, but they were constructed at bapty.

Before that I think they would have just made the prop out of some non restricted materials. Like a resin or cast aluminum grenade.


I have considered that a replica grenade could have been used in the past. For the reason you're saying. But traveling to anot her country and hoping you'll find a 60 year old piece of ordinance when you get there doesn't sound likely to me
 
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Well I didn't mean they bought a grenade from some street peddler, I meant supplied by a gun dealer, military, or film production company.

Importing deactivated Sterlings is one thing, this is a grenade. Based on the info from the Making of SW book the grenade was in the Art Dept prior to filming and it looks like the Chronicles saber. Why they didn't take that one to Tunsia and took a different complete saber would be a mystery.

While some photos do look like a different grenade and booster I still don't think there were 2 separate props unless one was constructed in Tunsia and the 'Hero' prop never left England for whatever the reason.
 
We know that between Tunesia and Mechanismo/Chronicles books the OB1 lightsaber has been altered ... we also know that originally most of the military parts belonged to and were rented from Bapty. So what if after production all those parts were returned, except for the G R A F L E X Clamp, Derwent Balance Pipe, TI Exactra bubblestrip and AS Handwheel (that was also kept in loose pieces with the D-ring still attached) which were nicely archived and kept in a box marked Lucasfilm Ltd./ILM lightsaber parts, perhaps even together with Luke's many G R A F L E X flashguns and Vader's MPP's, who knows.

So when it turned out that STAR WARS became a huge success ... and Harry Harrison was making his Mechanismo SF book ©1978 ... Lucasfilm needed new shots from OB1's iconic lightsaber as well as the Stormtrooper blaster made, as to supply Harry with his request to publish them in his new book along with a cut out illustration made by Brian Lewis :

SW_Saber_Large.JPG


. . . so they took the lightsaber parts from the Lucasfilm Archive and went back to Bapty with the request to having put back together OB1's lightsaber for a photoshoot.

Now you have to understand that Bapty's has a huge arsenal of weapons and parts ... among them probably many different WW1 grenades ... and let's for argument's sake pretend you just stepped into Bapty's workshop with your OB1 parts in your precious box ... and then found some of the grenades presented in this next picture :

No.3MkI%20-WW1_zpsoeysocn3.JPG


. . . yet nicely displayed on the table together with some boosters, which were taken off the ANM2 machine guns once more. Given some tools, screws, bolts and nuts . . . which grenade would you pick, without having examined and scrutinized the movie-prop as much as we have, and perhaps with just a sloppy continuity picture, or even the one with Alec Guiness in the desert celebrating his birthday, lying next to you?

Alec%20Guinness%20as%20OB1_zps7av7kvn9.JPG


Of course ... most of us would pick the dark one from the top shelf ... which is possibly what the person from Bapty or Lucasfilm did having seen above picture . . . but what if the actual grenade used for production . . . was the third from the bottom row . . . yes, that ugly beige coloured grenade with the awkward bottom, which by then had been probably restored back to it's original colour by removing the black lightsaber props paintjob, immaculately done by the guys from Bapty . . . now have a look at the top ring . . . it's slightly different and . . . the cuts on the body run further up into the first ring. It has less of a slope and a smooth windvane as opposed to the No.3MkI on the top shelf.

Here's a wonderful close-up of that same beige grenade ... now in black and white and the same position as in my comparison picture :

No.3MkI%20-WW1-FX2_zpsernpg6wb.JPG


Did these events actually happen as described? . . . Or is my imagination getting the better of me? It's very plausible if you'd ask me :wacko

Chaim
 
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