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  1. Firefox3D's Avatar
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    Jun 8, 2015, 3:15 PM - Re: Firefox MIG-31 movie aircraft #26

    Hi Al, just out of interest where did you get your starting plans from?

    Jon
  2. IEDBOUNTYHUNTER is offline IEDBOUNTYHUNTER
    Jun 8, 2015, 3:20 PM - Re: Firefox MIG-31 movie aircraft #27

    A friend of mine whos into Firefox and has been doing research for many years had it drawn up. And we are going to print it out and mold and cast it. Its scaled to 1/18 for now. We may make a larger version after, we both like large scale models
  3. Chara limit is way too sm RPF Premium Member Nwerke's Avatar
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    Jun 8, 2015, 10:19 PM - Re: Firefox MIG-31 movie aircraft #28

    “The 3D printer did nearly go out the window a couple of times in the first week”

    I know that feeling. I still get weird mystery failures that are sods to track down and can’t print adequately with ABS; the stuff just will not stay down. I’ve not yet tried blue tape – it should work on Kapton, but even if I get adhesion, the print head itself clearly isn’t happy. The stuff is just that bit too viscous at any temperature; it jams all the time and I end up having to strip the head. I’ve got an E3D aftermarket head but haven’t installed it yet. Got to try that.

    “extruder motor will not run unless the hot end is at at least 180 degrees.”

    Yeah, that’s fairly universal I think. You don’t want to be trying to drive a 1.75mm solid through a 0.35mm nozzle. Re the bed, you’ll need to re-level it from time to time. Automatic bed levelling is a nice feature to have that has been coming in with some newer machines, but I wouldn’t pay a large premium for it. The huge number of quite small build-volume machines is something I don’t get; you have to ask why they don’t provide for enlarging Reprap types at least, as part of the design. I’d get frustrated with anything less than a 250mm long bed. (300mm would be nice, print a helmet with that. Been eyeing off Taz machines lately.)

    “However I have done some research into PLA as I thought biodegradable meant it would literally rot away with time”

    Well that’s a little reassuring, but my understanding was that it’s something like ten years ish, and it does weaken/rot/something or other. Ten years would have seemed like forever once, but decades seem to fly by these days…
    We get up to about 45 deg C here in summer but there have been days over 50 in some places, fortunately Baghdad weather is rare and yeah, don’t think I’d survive it. And yeah there’s quite a few new filaments coming out, bit by bit. (Laybrick is a lot of fun for printing buildings, for example.)

    “You can pause mid print no problem”

    Huh? In Cura, or some other host? Belts are a problem if you don’t keep them good and tight. Mine have started to leak fibreglass so I suppose I’d better find some spares. Re PLA colours I like blue and green, for some reason they’ve worked best for me out of all the coloured stuff. I’m using some red PLA right now that’s way undersized at 1.3mm. Upping the feed rate to a value which worked took a crazy amount of experimenting; in the end I’ve found a feed rate thickness setting of 1.72mm only is what works. Any more than that is far too much. Surprising. The red stuff also doesn’t produce as nice a finish, for some reason.

    “Yes the supports were not great in Slic3r but I think they have improved them, having said that a number of people seem to say build the support into the model so you know what you are going to end up with.”

    It’s not a bad way to go but I go with Cura ‘line’ support 90% of the time; it’s effective and easy to remove. I think about print orientation a lot and design overhangs on an angle wherever possible, avoiding the need for support.

    Re canards, it’s been an age since I’ve watched the film, but don’t we see them move? Sliding doors would be my guess. But yeah - steel rods for both versions would keep it nice and simple.

    IIRC one of the flying models was converted into a stage model. It might have been epoxy-glass construction for light weight. Not sure about the others, they might be heavier polyester-glass.

    OMG, 1/18. It’s getting like buses around here. You wait for hours, then three come past together.
  4. Firefox3D's Avatar
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    Jun 9, 2015, 5:38 AM - Re: Firefox MIG-31 movie aircraft #29

    "I know that feeling. I still get weird mystery failures that are sods to track down and can’t print adequately with ABS; the stuff just will not stay down."

    ABS printing does seem a bit of a nightmare that's why I was looking at alternatives, the one thing people talk about are Elmers glue stick, basically the glue stick you used as a kid to stick paper together. Also something I saw yesterday mentioned PEI sheet which I had never heard of seems to to work very well http://reprap.org/wiki/PEI_build_surface

    "You can pause mid print no problem”

    "Huh? In Cura, or some other host?"

    You can pause with the standard web control interface, the custom firmware fork someone called dc42 did adds the speed and extrusion control

    "The huge number of quite small build-volume machines is something I don’t get; you have to ask why they don’t provide for enlarging Reprap types at least, as part of the design. I’d get frustrated with anything less than a 250mm long bed. (300mm would be nice, print a helmet with that. Been eyeing off Taz machines lately.)"

    Yeah, I went to an expo about 2 years ago and all the print machines had tiny build volumes, and were about 1000, crazy. I mentioned increasing the Z axis on mine, thinking about it it wouldn't be that hard to increase the Y also. I was tempted by a brand new unused Taz machine on ebay UK a little while ago, it sold for about 1/2 retail, but that was still about twice what I paid for mine.

    "Re canards, it’s been an age since I’ve watched the film, but don’t we see them move?"

    One place but it's a pretty much a top down shot which that frame is part of, obviously they tried to hide it.

    "IIRC one of the flying models was converted into a stage model. It might have been epoxy-glass construction for light weight. Not sure about the others, they might be heavier polyester-glass."

    They aren't specific in the Cinefex article, it does say they were trying to do carbon fibre for the RC ones but was too tricky in a short time so used straight epoxy is the wording. The RC ones flew well in testing but they didn't end up using them as where they were shooting the ground was to rough and the wind too severe.
    "OMG, 1/18. It’s getting like buses around here. You wait for hours, then three come past together. "

    I know but things seem to happen that way, all or nothin', least we are working on different sizes, lol
    Last edited by Firefox3D; Jun 9, 2015 at 6:21 AM.
  5. Firefox3D's Avatar
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    Jun 19, 2015, 4:07 PM - Re: Firefox MIG-31 movie aircraft #30

    First want to say thanks to Will who started the original Firefox project on here as I found out the 2D plans I started with were actually drawn up by him. Wouldn't have got this far without his help.

    Been working on the rear section for the past few evenings, needs some smoothing and detailing but think I have got the complex end of fuselage section right.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Going to add some panel lines and do a test print of the engine section over the weekend to see how it works out.

    Bit ahead of myself but started looking at colours. The original paint job is going to be near impossible to replicate, take the often asked what colour is the Millennium Falcon (hope saying that doesn't bring anyone out in boils) and multiply it by about 10. There was a basecoat upon which many layers of shading and lacquers were added. So I started looking for a base colour which covered the majority of the paint scheme. Spent a few hours looking at car colours and for some reason Toyota/Lexus seem to have a wide range of shades similar to what I was looking for. Found a handy website with multiple pictures of the same car colour in different lighting conditions, so armed with a few possibilities visited my local car paint supplier.
    Took a number of pics in daylight of about 20 different colours in the same colour palette, noted my phone showed them a bit over blue to real life and came home. On uploading the photos was pleased to see they appeared less blue on screen so it was going to be ballpark right. Quickly realised that what I thought was my starting point colour was way too blue and light, but luckily in a random last 4 selection hit one that is very close.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Second from left highlighted in black. If you base the colour on the full scale one or the ice flow model you will probably think I am loosing it, but the 1/12 hero is pretty close to that overall. It will need darker almost slate grey shades and silver/blue, in fact the colour to the right of the highlighted colour in the pic would probably work well for the lighter shades in misted over the main colour.

    Jon
    Last edited by Firefox3D; Jul 1, 2017 at 2:57 PM. Reason: Fix broken pic links
  6. Formerly GELForever Martin-El's Avatar
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    Jun 19, 2015, 5:42 PM - Re: Firefox MIG-31 movie aircraft #31

    Superb Jon - Keep it coming
    I also wasn't aware Will was responsible for the renders - he really did his homework
    The colour choice is fascinating - as it appears a different shade in most every shot I guess its subjective but its great to have a starting point.

    Did you see these? found them while searching for thinkinrussian.org
    (which does seem to have disappeared

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Looking forward to seeing these test prints..!!
    Last edited by Martin-El; Jun 19, 2015 at 5:55 PM.
  7. Chara limit is way too sm RPF Premium Member Nwerke's Avatar
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    Jun 23, 2015, 11:24 AM - Re: Firefox MIG-31 movie aircraft #32

    Jon I'm right there with you on colour. For me it's the hero miniatures every time; that's what gets the bulk of screen time and that enigmatic bluish silver-grey has always been fascinating to me. I think you've done a great job finding a good colour match there and can't wait to see it on a model. It's rare to see a fan model built in anything other than black and that just doesn't work, for mine! Others will disagree of course but I'm delighted you're going this way.
  8. Firefox3D's Avatar
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    Jun 26, 2015, 7:53 PM - Re: Firefox MIG-31 movie aircraft #33

    Held off the test printing as I realised that there were a few things off, and decided it wasn't worth doing before all the structural parts were done. So many small tweaks, you realise how accurate you can be when you are moving things only around an inch in real scale terms on a 63 feet long plane!

    Anyway, the inset sections around the exhausts I am calling done after many hours tweaking, mainly because there was never any real detail there as the engines are always lit on the hero so there didn't need to be as it would get obscured.
    Had a hard time getting it right as I had made a couple of assumptions about angles of certain pieces which I realised were wrong, once those were corrected it was a eureka moment as it started matching the reference pics, had a celebratory cup of java over that one

    Took a bit of artistic license with the exhaust manifolds as they are kind of plain. So found reference pics of the SR-71 Blackbird engine internals and detailed them in a similar fashion, after all it's the only plane that's got anywhere near the Firefoxs Mach 6...

    Tail planes are mostly there, they were slightly undersized and the tilt angle was wrong, now they match the hero shots. Built the defence pods, undecided if the ones by the engine should be blended in or left as is. That section comes out with the engine internals on the hero and I think there may have been two sets that were a bit different - one lit and unlit as some of the shots just don't seem to show the same thing.

    Have done a bit of test printing of the exhaust manifold sections which were a pain as the edges get so thin, needs a bit more adjustment on print settings for that.

    So current state
    Click image for larger version. 

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    and a close up with lighting/shadows
    Click image for larger version. 

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    More tomorrow.
    Last edited by Firefox3D; Jul 1, 2017 at 2:59 PM. Reason: Fix pic links
  9. Chara limit is way too sm RPF Premium Member Nwerke's Avatar
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    Jun 27, 2015, 2:41 AM - Re: Firefox MIG-31 movie aircraft #34

    It's great isn't it, when your project starts matching the ref in multiple self-reinforcing ways and you know you've got it right, haha.

    Looks good!
  10. Firefox3D's Avatar
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    Jul 6, 2015, 6:37 PM - Re: Firefox MIG-31 movie aircraft #35

    Had some 3D printing problems, kept getting issues, partly down to cheap filament, and partly down to learning optimal settings for what are complex shapes. Kept getting problems, and after starting the same print 3 times, realised I was going through - insanity is doing the same thing but expecting a different outcome situation!

    Realised I was trying to print probably too fast, and with not enough infill, trying to save time on prints, but probably wasted more time in the process. I was trying to get the print time down as most of the complete engine section was quoted at about 12 hours, which sounds a long time but not a big deal if you leave it reliably printing overnight, and it is quite a big portion of the model.

    I have pinned down what the main problems are including a banding effect I was getting on the engine exhaust, which seemed to be down to certain layers getting infill rather than just a perimeter when the thickness went from somewhere between 2-3mm, turning off infill and adding more perimeters fixed it, but have realised it's down to a default infill overlap to perimeter setting of 15% causing a bulge.

    I had to stop the rear section print shown in the pics about 3/4 through, again know why it happened and how to stop it, but though what the hell and kicked of the rest before going to bed last night, sure enough it screwed up in the same way, see the insanity quote above!

    Anyway nearly threw it in the bin this morning, but coming back to it this evening quickly glued it together and realised it didn't look that bad, al least it looks right, which was why I was doing it. There are shots of the exhaust version 1 and 2, version 2 I split it into two parts and I realised I was going to have printing problems otherwise. To give a sense of scale the entire engine section in this one is about 200mm wide.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Have also tested producing panel lines, the test slices shown are about 8mm high and the panel "cut" lines about 0.5mm wide, you can see the 0.2mm layer resolution in the second one. I don't think this will reliably work at anything less than 1/24th scale, maybe 1/32.

    All pics in this folder https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...2QwR2h6SEQ1cjA

    Have some new material quality filament on it's was which from what I have read will help with some of the issues I am having, and I need to mod the printer to stop the show stopping issues. What happens is you get a small curl or lift on a perimeter edge where there isn't complete infill, this seems to be a trait of using PLA filament as it stays soft for some time, good for layer bonding, but bad for stuff like this. When that happens high enough the Z axis sensor by the head runs into it and either a) knocks the part off the bed, or b) if it's stuck well enough, as in this case case it causes the drive belt to skip so everything after that is offset or in other words screwed up.
    Might not happen with the new type of material as from what I have read although you print at a higher temp is sets (glasses) faster, really hope so as I have 2.2kg coming to make to price reasonable.
    Last edited by Firefox3D; Jul 1, 2017 at 3:03 PM. Reason: Fix pic links
  11. Chara limit is way too sm RPF Premium Member Nwerke's Avatar
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    Jul 8, 2015, 4:36 AM - Re: Firefox MIG-31 movie aircraft #36

    Your 3D print experience sounds a LOT like mine, haha. Did any of your problems also stem from filament diameter consistency issues? I had a lot of trouble with that before I realised the experts really meant it when they said it makes a huge difference, aheh. I've started paying a lot more attention on that front, and slowed my prints down. I go with about 22% infill for most jobs. I find you can usually leave a printer going overnight without supervision and expect an OK result provided the reel isn't badly wound (ugh, that's cost me a few print jobs) and you have good initial bed adhesion (which is why I almost always use rafts). And, obviously, that all your other settings are good for the reel you're using.

    Try playing with your settings for lifting the head - there should be some Z axis settings that could help with that curl problem. Also, your bed fan - does it have a shroud forcing the air around the nozzle/on to the part? If not there's bound to be a mod part on Thingiverse. One of the first mods I made and is great for *everything* to do with PLA. Oh yeah - also, check your "time per layer" setting. If it is too fast, especially on a small layer (i.e. especially if you don't have infill - sounds like the case here) - the print is retaining too much heat and you get warps etc. Um, and playing with bed fan speed too.

    And nozzle temperature haha. Oh god these things are a nightmare of interrelated settings factors ain't they?

    I use 10% infill overlap most of the time. You shouldn't get bulges even with 15% so I'd check that filament thickness if you haven't already - if the system thinks it is eating less plastic than it really is, that's when I get bulges.

    - - - Updated - - -

    PS you pretty much have to adjust your settings for each new roll of PLA. When you find something that works well stop experimenting and just get on with it, is my advice. Don't be me, I keep trying different colours and makes, can't help myself.
  12. Firefox3D's Avatar
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    Jul 14, 2015, 9:29 PM - Re: Firefox MIG-31 movie aircraft #37

    Small update, worked on the tricky geometry of the wing to fuselage shaping and the intake inlet cut outs which flare outwards so the narrow tips nearest the front of the plane are as wide as the front fuselage widest point, something people seem to miss.

    The wing body join looks a bit obvious at the moment as they are two separate pieces of geometry so there is no visual smoothing being added by the software.

    Done a few other things, found some subtle shaping and angles on the front of the underside intake/gun port, added the rear underside fins and defence pods. Keep checking by using the match photo feature in SketchUp where you can adjust the perspective to get an almost perfect match to any of my reference pics.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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  13. Chara limit is way too sm RPF Premium Member Nwerke's Avatar
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    Jul 15, 2015, 7:35 AM - Re: Firefox MIG-31 movie aircraft #38

    You are really, really nailing this thing down!

    It's never really occurred to me before but this thing is actually area-ruled. I wonder if that was intentional or a complete accident? Pretty amusing and probably a one-off for fictional aircraft!

    You should post some comparos against the refs.
  14. Firefox3D's Avatar
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    Jul 15, 2015, 8:58 AM - Re: Firefox MIG-31 movie aircraft #39

    I have had to use a combination of Photoshop and Coreldraw to create this as inside SketchUp unless you can zoom in and out it it's really hard to see what's going on!

    Realised I saved it after I was trying to line up what I have now realised as slightly sagging wing-tips, so my model is tilted towards the camera a tiny bit more than the hero orientation, like 1 degree or something, but it doesn't affect the horizontal dimensions. I will do some more, but they take time.

    This is one of the best pics to match to as it looks like it was taken at a distance with zoom, which I have found reduces the distortion artefacts somewhat.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Forgot to post this, using this pic from Cinefex, I scaled and overlaid dimensions in Coreldraw, gives a good scale reference as the mount pipe must be 1.5 inches diameter, as far as I can tell that's what they used, certainly from that sizing it scales the hero correctly.


    Click image for larger version. 

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    Realised this is probably the shot where they are moving the canards back, sorry about the male nudity, must have been hot in there!
  15. Chara limit is way too sm RPF Premium Member Nwerke's Avatar
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    Jul 15, 2015, 10:26 AM - Re: Firefox MIG-31 movie aircraft #40

    Niiiiiice! Thoughts:

    * that nacelle section really isn't as tall as I've always thought
    * on the nacelle outer side walls, is there a facet demarcation at the level of the wing, which carries aft?
    * or is that only a panel line and change in the line of the sweep of the trailing edge of the nacelle?
    * do you need to move the leading edge of your lower main intakes forward a little, possibly?
    * I think you need more of a 'step' back to the main nacelle at the lower edge of the nozzle shrouds.

    Overall, mindblowingly close to perfect.
  16. Firefox3D's Avatar
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    Jul 15, 2015, 11:04 AM - Re: Firefox MIG-31 movie aircraft #41

    Nwerke said:
    * on the nacelle outer side walls, is there a facet demarcation at the level of the wing, which carries aft?
    * or is that only a panel line and change in the line of the sweep of the trailing edge of the nacelle?
    If I have the right part you are talking about there are various small changes in angle, if you can mark the bit you mean I can answer better.

    Nwerke said:
    * do you need to move the leading edge of your lower main intakes forward a little, possibly?
    I think it's because the angle is a little off in my view, and the hero is mostly in shadow there, I looked at that area against a number of shots right back at the beginning, I have a side on shot to compare too, if it is off I will show and fix it.

    Nwerke said:
    * I think you need more of a 'step' back to the main nacelle at the lower edge of the nozzle shrouds.
    Ok that bit lost me, lol, can you point it out?

    Nwerke said:
    Overall, mindblowingly close to perfect.
    Thanks, makes the insane amount of time I have spent on this worth it.

    Jon
  17. Chara limit is way too sm RPF Premium Member Nwerke's Avatar
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    Jul 15, 2015, 11:14 PM - Re: Firefox MIG-31 movie aircraft #42

    OK, marked up both pics. Yeah, I didn't describe the 'step' thing well. It's just perspective - the shrouds seem like they could maybe use a tiny bit more sweep-back, low down? In the photo there's a gap vs. the triple rocket booster bit, which doesn't appear on the render. Hopefully the marked up pic explains what I'm rambling on about.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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  18. Firefox3D's Avatar
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    Jul 16, 2015, 8:16 AM - Re: Firefox MIG-31 movie aircraft #43

    That whole section has a lot of small angle changes, a rear parallel projection view shows it best, pretty much none of it is straight.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    The triple booster bit - TBH I wasn't 100% on that part, but I think I have worked out what it is, so thanks for the poke. Will have a go at it later.

    I don't think they were thinking that technical about the booster jets, but if it "was" a real Mach 6 plane, the main turbofans would be near useless above mach 4-ish. Actually people talk about being able to see the engines from the front, you actually never would as there would have to be a mechanism like the SR-71 Blackbird to slow down the incoming air to below the speed of sound other wise you get a shockwave inside the engine = REALLY not good.
    So I "think" the boosters would be ramjets/pulsejets fed air by the big underwing intakes, basically just compressing the air by reducing the volume it passes through and throwing fuel in. This is what the classified Aurora aircraft is said to use.
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    Jul 17, 2015, 3:10 PM - Re: Firefox MIG-31 movie aircraft #44

    Hi,
    Timeless hobbies do a model of this.
    http://www.timeless-hobbies.com/firefox.html
    Al
  20. rbeach84's Avatar
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    Jul 17, 2015, 4:33 PM - Re: Firefox MIG-31 movie aircraft #45

    That just doesn't look right somehow... too short or wrong proportions? (the kit noted in prior post, not the work being done here...)
    R/ Robert
    Last edited by rbeach84; Jul 17, 2015 at 4:42 PM.
  21. Firefox3D's Avatar
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    Jul 17, 2015, 4:36 PM - Re: Firefox MIG-31 movie aircraft #46

    I don't have enough time this evening/weekend to describe how wrong that one is, that makes the Studio 2 one look like a masterpiece, LOL

    Actually it looks more like one of the prototype models before they got to the final design, maybe that's what they were aiming for...
    Last edited by Firefox3D; Jul 17, 2015 at 4:42 PM.
  22. rbeach84's Avatar
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    Jul 17, 2015, 4:44 PM - Re: Firefox MIG-31 movie aircraft #47

    Well, if even a non-guru like me can *see* there is a problem, then it is pretty far off from accurate. It is recognizable in a distorted lens kind of way, granted. Good enough for the unwashed masses, perhaps...

    R/ Robert
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    Jul 18, 2015, 1:00 PM - Re: Firefox MIG-31 movie aircraft #48

    Timeless hobbies 1/72 firefox.... Think I'll give it a miss. There are more accurate lego models out there!
  24. Firefox3D's Avatar
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    Jul 18, 2015, 7:34 PM - Re: Firefox MIG-31 movie aircraft #49

    Certainly looks more like the Firefox design prototype, but doubt if that was intended!

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Have spent all evening scanning and cleaning up the whole Cinefex article uploaded here

    https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...HZKaG9xdUhsajA
    Last edited by Firefox3D; Jul 1, 2017 at 3:05 PM. Reason: Fix pic links
  25. Formerly GELForever Martin-El's Avatar
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    Jul 19, 2015, 2:10 PM - Re: Firefox MIG-31 movie aircraft #50

    Those scans are a gift- thank you!!

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    Last Post: Oct 2, 2007, 9:22 AM