joshvanrad
Sr Member
That horse sure is mighty high.
Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker (Pre-release)
- Thread starter Bryancd
- Start date
Axlotl
Master Member
Wait... what?
When I stop laughing I'll try to put together a coherent rebuttal.
Hopefully someone more eloquent beats me to the punch.
In the meantime... ROFL!
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If the Empire was Vietnam-era America, he sure went out of his way to make it instead look like Nazi Germany. One has to dig no deeper than the term, Stormtroopers.
I don't believe a word out of George Lucas' mouth, and haven't for decades.
The Wook
joshvanrad
Sr Member
He retconned his own memories. George Lucas: The Master Of Retcons.
MrSouthpaw
Sr Member
It's ironic that you claim others don't understand the underlying themes in SW when you made the completely wrong assertion that the empire mirrored the soviets and was anti-religious. You actually go so far as to call it a "major point", when the bulk of inspiration behind the Empire is actually the Nazis. And not just visually, although considering movies are a visual medium, that would actually be a pretty major component to it's character.
CT1138
Sr Member
The "bad guys," the Empire, clearly establishes itself as an anti-Force entity, with the Force being a clear symbol of religion in the Star Wars movies. Meanwhile, the "good guys," the Rebellion, is established as pro-Force. The biggest anti-religious government at the time were the Soviets, who happened to be a authoritarian dictatorship. These analogues are incontrovertible.
mattycsi
Master Member
This.
Every minute of it was utter drivel, and it boils my pee when some patronising eejit tries to tell me I didn't like it because of how Luke was handled! I was near puking in my popcorn tub with disgust long before Luke even showed up. Literally every scene, every shot, the plot, the dialogue was pitiful. It opened with a crank phone call, Star Wars opened with a crank phone call!!!
And it got worse and worse as it went on.
The iconogrphy for the Empire were Nazi's however as George point out in the interview with Cameron, the inspiration for the Rebellion were the Viet Cong, ergo the Empire was a representation of US and western Imperialism.
MrSouthpaw
Sr Member
While the Empire is a pastiche of different countries. It is mostly Nazi Germany with tiny bits here and there from other countries.
GL directly calls the Empire Nazis.
https://www.starwars.com/news/from-world-war-to-star-wars-imperial-officers
Also, feel free to establish how the Empire is anti-Force. And the Rebellion pro-Force.
As noted above the Empire was mostly Nazi Germany with only minor elements of other countries. Tail does not wag the dog. Also, just because one side is based on one thing, does not automatically mean the other side is based on it's real world opposite. That is drawing conclusions.
Also, on the 2004 ROTJ DVD. GL was quoted as saying the Viet Cong inspired the Ewoks.
https://screenrant.com/ewok-star-wars-trivia-facts-you-didnt-know/
And John Mollo has been quoted as saying GL wanted the Rebellion to look like US forces.
https://www.starwars.com/news/from-world-war-to-star-wars-imperial-officers
sztriki
Sr Member
I'm sure I don't need to dig out the comparison videos where ANH's dogfight scenes are beat by beat mirrors of WW2 movies' dogfight beats...? Star Wars is a fairy tale at heart, therefore there's good vs evil, simple as that and the most clear-cut war with these regards in the eyes of the Western civilization is WW2. I know everyone chooses what they want to believe but I highly doubt that George wanted to make an anti-corporate/imperialist analogy of HIS OWN country and picture the Viet Cong as the good guys. That comes from a guy who know states he always wanted SW to be about the rise and fall of Anakin Skywalker, that he always had it all planned out that Vader will be Anakin (even though in an interview from the 80s he flat out denied he has it all mapped out).
I do believe however that the Vietnam war had a major part in the overall reception of SW exactly because of the overall impact and general atmosphere around the war a simple, pure-at-heart space war fairy tale movie full of optimism and black-and-white players was able to leave a massive uplifting mark.
I do believe however that the Vietnam war had a major part in the overall reception of SW exactly because of the overall impact and general atmosphere around the war a simple, pure-at-heart space war fairy tale movie full of optimism and black-and-white players was able to leave a massive uplifting mark.
laszlo
Sr Member
It is a fools errand to start equating 'Facist/ Empire' & 'Democracy/ Rebels' with real world left and right political parties.
Our real world left and right parties are both democratic and are the 'goods guys'. This is why TLJ fundamentally didn't understand Star Wars as it introduced real world politics which shattered the fairy tale illusion and needlessly divided fans.
Our real world left and right parties are both democratic and are the 'goods guys'. This is why TLJ fundamentally didn't understand Star Wars as it introduced real world politics which shattered the fairy tale illusion and needlessly divided fans.
Axlotl
Master Member
My knee-jerk response yesterday was pretty rude. I apologize for that, CT1138.
Let me try this again...
Politics was not a theme in the original Star Wars saga.
The politics of the OT are the setting - the backdrop against which the themes are played out.
The themes of the OT are good triumphs over evil, love conquers hate, and friendship wins the day.
You do see the irony in accusing us of not understanding the saga's themes when you don't seem to understand what a theme is, right?
I have more to say about "the current politics" of Disney Star Wars, but I need to get some work done.
Maybe I'll come back to it later.
Solo4114
Master Member
Politics in Star Wars...yeesh. Where to begin...
Well, at the time it came out, many were quick to point to how the Empire was CLEARLY a stand-in for Soviet Russia. Then later, people focused on how it was OBVIOUSLY the Nazis who were the inspiration. Actually studying the background of the Empire, how it came into existence, and how it operated after it took over, I think there are aspects that track to at least two, possibly three other "empires" in history. First, there's the Roman empire, which came into being after Octavian (later Augustus) who defeated his political rivals in the course of a civil war, then was basically elected Emperor by the Roman Senate. It also tracks VERY closely with the rise of Hitler and the fall of Weimar Germany. I won't go into that in great detail, but if you're curious, I can recommend two excellent books that detail Hitler's political machinations that brought him to power. You can also look at the anti-religious (of sorts) sentiment of the Empire in Star Wars and compare it to the same sentiments in Soviet Russia. And, of course, most of the iconography of the Empire harkens back to Nazi Germany, and this is even more so in the sequels with the First Order.
Lucas, in interviews dating back at least to the early 80s, seemed interested in the notion of a smaller, less well-equipped military force defeating a larger, much more militarily powerful one. The most proximate example of that in '77 is the Viet Cong, although many have drawn parallels with the overall contours of the American War for Independence and the Vietnam War, the Viet Cong and the Minutemen, and so on. The larger parallels are there to be seen. I don't see any of these things as being overtly political within the OT. They aren't portrayed as, say, commentary on American society or Russia or whatever. It's more about using the iconography and themes to tell a more universal story.
The Prequel trilogy...had fairly convoluted politics. TPM is completely confusing with respect to the blockade of Naboo, the rise of Palpatine to Chancellor, etc., etc. I don't think it tracks perfectly to a whole lot, although I may be forgetting some moment in history that maps to it nicely. It's mostly meant to be a moment where Palpatine uses a crisis to get one leader voted out and to take over himself...and that's about it. I think it's in AOTC that you see Padme's "So this is how democracy dies..." line, and that was ABSOFRIGGINLUTELY taken as a political statement on the climate of the time in the U.S., in which people were arguing that our own government had voted to undermine our freedoms with the Patriot Act. I don't raise this to start a dispute about the accuracy of that notion or to discuss its merits, but simply to illustrate that "That was the message, whatever one thinks of it." I think that was quite deliberate on Lucas' part. But aside from that, it's not like the Republic was meant as an allegory for America. He was simply doing what he'd always done with Star Wars: lifting something from somewhere else and adding it to his story.
I don't see the sequel trilogy as being all that overtly political, other than "Space Nazis are bad, and the people who fight them are good." The other political stuff has been less about political parties or structures of government, and more about social and sexual politics, especially with issues surrounding gender/sex equality, and racial inclusion (although that's more a factor of casting, since nobody ever mentions race in the Star Wars films, except maybe Watto talking about Toydarians). I don't see the story of the films as being particularly political. What's political is the imagery there, but that harkens back to Leia in '77 turning out to be anything but a helpless princess. Trapped, yes. Helpless, hardly. Leia was a badass, but it's important to remember that images of that sort were still pretty uncommon.
While I can see how people who align with the modern Republican party might dislike what they see as "identity politics" getting into Star Wars, and people who align with the Democratic party would like what they see as inclusive casting, I don't see the films themselves as particularly partisan. You can like or dislike it on a bunch of levels that have nothing to do with political party.
To me, the most political thing about TLJ is the spirit of "Stop looking to the older generation to save you and fix the problems they created. It's time for you to do it yourself, and yes, any of you can do it." But I don't really see that as being uniquely Republican or Democratic. That's more about demographics, if you ask me.
Well, at the time it came out, many were quick to point to how the Empire was CLEARLY a stand-in for Soviet Russia. Then later, people focused on how it was OBVIOUSLY the Nazis who were the inspiration. Actually studying the background of the Empire, how it came into existence, and how it operated after it took over, I think there are aspects that track to at least two, possibly three other "empires" in history. First, there's the Roman empire, which came into being after Octavian (later Augustus) who defeated his political rivals in the course of a civil war, then was basically elected Emperor by the Roman Senate. It also tracks VERY closely with the rise of Hitler and the fall of Weimar Germany. I won't go into that in great detail, but if you're curious, I can recommend two excellent books that detail Hitler's political machinations that brought him to power. You can also look at the anti-religious (of sorts) sentiment of the Empire in Star Wars and compare it to the same sentiments in Soviet Russia. And, of course, most of the iconography of the Empire harkens back to Nazi Germany, and this is even more so in the sequels with the First Order.
Lucas, in interviews dating back at least to the early 80s, seemed interested in the notion of a smaller, less well-equipped military force defeating a larger, much more militarily powerful one. The most proximate example of that in '77 is the Viet Cong, although many have drawn parallels with the overall contours of the American War for Independence and the Vietnam War, the Viet Cong and the Minutemen, and so on. The larger parallels are there to be seen. I don't see any of these things as being overtly political within the OT. They aren't portrayed as, say, commentary on American society or Russia or whatever. It's more about using the iconography and themes to tell a more universal story.
The Prequel trilogy...had fairly convoluted politics. TPM is completely confusing with respect to the blockade of Naboo, the rise of Palpatine to Chancellor, etc., etc. I don't think it tracks perfectly to a whole lot, although I may be forgetting some moment in history that maps to it nicely. It's mostly meant to be a moment where Palpatine uses a crisis to get one leader voted out and to take over himself...and that's about it. I think it's in AOTC that you see Padme's "So this is how democracy dies..." line, and that was ABSOFRIGGINLUTELY taken as a political statement on the climate of the time in the U.S., in which people were arguing that our own government had voted to undermine our freedoms with the Patriot Act. I don't raise this to start a dispute about the accuracy of that notion or to discuss its merits, but simply to illustrate that "That was the message, whatever one thinks of it." I think that was quite deliberate on Lucas' part. But aside from that, it's not like the Republic was meant as an allegory for America. He was simply doing what he'd always done with Star Wars: lifting something from somewhere else and adding it to his story.
I don't see the sequel trilogy as being all that overtly political, other than "Space Nazis are bad, and the people who fight them are good." The other political stuff has been less about political parties or structures of government, and more about social and sexual politics, especially with issues surrounding gender/sex equality, and racial inclusion (although that's more a factor of casting, since nobody ever mentions race in the Star Wars films, except maybe Watto talking about Toydarians). I don't see the story of the films as being particularly political. What's political is the imagery there, but that harkens back to Leia in '77 turning out to be anything but a helpless princess. Trapped, yes. Helpless, hardly. Leia was a badass, but it's important to remember that images of that sort were still pretty uncommon.
While I can see how people who align with the modern Republican party might dislike what they see as "identity politics" getting into Star Wars, and people who align with the Democratic party would like what they see as inclusive casting, I don't see the films themselves as particularly partisan. You can like or dislike it on a bunch of levels that have nothing to do with political party.
To me, the most political thing about TLJ is the spirit of "Stop looking to the older generation to save you and fix the problems they created. It's time for you to do it yourself, and yes, any of you can do it." But I don't really see that as being uniquely Republican or Democratic. That's more about demographics, if you ask me.
Axlotl
Master Member
This is where Star Wars tracks to Hitler's rise to power and the fall of the Weimar Republic.
Solo4114
Master Member
Not really. Well, not exactly. TPM is entirely focused around the Trade Federation's blockade and invasion of Naboo, all orchestrated by Sidious. The vote of no confidence in Valorum leads to Palpatine becoming Chancellor. But Palpatine at the time had just been a minor senator, as I recall. He hadn't led major political movements. By contrast, Hitler had led the Beer Hall Putsch, and had been head of the Nazi party for over a decade by the time he became Chancellor. It's more the events of AOTC and ROTS (and the Clone Wars cartoon) that, in my view, more closely follow Hitler's rise, at least in terms of the behind-the-scenes political stuff (obviously, Germany wasn't actually fighting a civil war while Hitler was Chancellor).
Axlotl
Master Member
Yah, I didn't mean the trade embargo stuff in TPM, I meant Palpatine's machinations in the other movies.
Hitler took over the nazi party by doing shady crap (blackmailing, framing, murdering), made the party a major political force by doing shady crap (blackmailing, framing, murdering), got elected chancellor by doing shady crap (blackmailing, framing, murdering), then sealed the deal with some shady crap.
It doesn't track perfectly, but it's the parallel my brain immediately went to.
Maybe someone else will say it tracks better to Napoleon. I honestly don't know anything about Napoleon.
I also honestly know very little about the prequels. I'd be happier if I could forget them entirely.
Bigdaddy
Master Member
How is the Empire anti religion and the Rebellion pro religion? Aside from the one comment in ANH from a single officer (seemed like his opinion rather than the veiw of the Empire) I never got that from the OT. If the Jedi and Sith are considered religious orders then it's more like one religion crushing another rather than an anti-religious movement. However there's no indication the masses are worshipping in Jedi or Sith temples.
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