Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker (Pre-release)

I love it when prequel fanboys use the old "I suppose you could have done better?" argument.
Yes. I could have. Anyone could have. Even Rian Effing Johnson could have.
Hell, YOU probably could have. A dozen monkeys with typewriters could have.

Far from a prequel fanboy BTW, just laugh at keyboard warriors who hate on visionaries, even flawed ones.
 
This coming from a guy who's racked up a thousand posts and made an RPF career out of hating on Rian Johnson for the past 4 months.
LOL. :cheers

Yeah and he is a real visionary isnt he.:lol:cheers. You just saw his movie and posted crap on him straight after.
 
Couple things... Luke hasn't been on Ahch-to "all those years". Bloodline is set about five years before TFA. Ben is still training with Luke, and, per Leia, the two of them are somewhere out in the back of beyond looking for something and unreachable. I presume this is hunting for leads as to the whereabouts of the original Jedi temple. At some point, they come back, Ben finds out about Vader being Leia's -- and Luke's -- dad. Something was happening to him already during the searching, and this revelation threw him into deeper turmoil. Then Luke's moment of weakness, Ben pulling a Sampson, and all that resulted.

There's still a murky sequence of events that hasn't been established. When and how did Luke get the missing info? How did Lor San Tekka have it? How long after the destruction of his academy did he actually "disappear"? When did anyone come looking? Did Luke meet with Leia after he and Ben returned and warn her about Snoke? She knew about him, and about his influencing Ben...

But as of TFA/TLJ, Luke's been missing for a couple of years. Three, four tops. I feel he told Leia what happened, left Artoo with her, and took his trusty old X-Wing to try and track down the last missing pieces. Leia probably thought he wanted to learn more to come back stronger. He was actually already decided on his course to eradicate any remaining Jedi lore because look at all the crap the Jedi keep causing. However long it took him to find it, however long he's been on Ahch-to, I feel he cut himself off from the Force before he ever even got there to prevent anyone from being able to track him that way. He sunk his ship, never intending to leave. And spent the next however long, probably psyching himself up every several days to go torch the tree. Even in his last attempt, his nerve failed, and it was Yoda who did it.

So it's not like he's been hiding out there for decades.
 
I hadn't realised Luke was dressed that way in order to burn the books, but if that's the case, it maybe suggests he wants to destroy those books respectfully? As you point out he's had plenty of time to do this and yet still hasn't, so he's conflicted on the whole 'end the Jedi' thing despite what he's saying, which is why he keeps his robes folded neatly. They'd be the first things to go if he'd really renounced the Force.

Luke changed his mind at the end anyway and used the Force even though it killed him, and the fact that his body vanishes when he dies means he can't be completely cut off from it.

.. I didn't care for TLJ much at all, there a loads of problems with the film, but to be honest I didn't see this as one of them.

Agreed, there’s plenty wrong with the film but the small nitpicks are not the ones that sink it. The only thing is that for some reason Rian and co feel compelled to rationalize these nitpicks and they usually don’t make much sense as explanations. Imagine JJ saying Han used the force to know when to come out of lightspeed at Starkiller base without smashing into the surface. It’s a dumbo scene, I rolled my eyes and moved along coz the rest of the movie made up for it.

To me, hating on George Lucas for not making the prequels you wanted is like throwing shade on Alexander Fleming for inventing penicillin because some people are allergic to it.


Ah come on man, you know better than this. Nobody is infallible, even visionaries. There was nothing visionary about the prequels other than ILM developing fancy new graphic softwares. They were badly written boring looking films with the moviemaking competency of a Brazilian soap opera director. The only parts with a bit of creativity were the sfx action shots done by ILM but those were largely unrelatable coz either the story was dumb or characters were unrelatable.
Don’t get me wrong, I have a lot of respect for the young Lucas who had the courage to go through all that crap to bring his uniuque vision to life, but that’s not a get out of jail card (at the same time, credit where credit is due, ANH’s script was heavily doctored, pacing was vastly improved during editing and the best film of the saga was largely done by other people based on his ideas, much like the Indy movies). Coppola made Godfather and Apocalypse now. Does that mean Jack is a great and respectable movie?
The parallel is more accurate as people hating (hating is a misplaced word still) on Fleming for coming up with a horrible tasting soda 25 years after inventing penicillin while he deliberately made several changes to the original penicillin to make more people allergic to it and called it improvement.

This is utterly untrue. It was some random fan petition that somehow became a “rumor”.
Thank god...
 
Ah come on man, you know better than this. Nobody is infallible, even visionaries. There was nothing visionary about the prequels other than ILM developing fancy new graphic softwares. They were badly written boring looking films with the moviemaking competency of a Brazilian soap opera director. The only parts with a bit of creativity were the sfx action shots done by ILM but those were largely unrelatable coz either the story was dumb or characters were unrelatable.
Don’t get me wrong, I have a lot of respect for the young Lucas who had the courage to go through all that crap to bring his uniuque vision to life, but that’s not a get out of jail card (at the same time, credit where credit is due, ANH’s script was heavily doctored, pacing was vastly improved during editing and the best film of the saga was largely done by other people based on his ideas, much like the Indy movies). Coppola made Godfather and Apocalypse now. Does that mean Jack is a great and respectable movie?
The parallel is more accurate as people hating (hating is a misplaced word still) on Fleming for coming up with a horrible tasting soda 25 years after inventing penicillin while he deliberately made several changes to the original penicillin to make more people allergic to it and called it improvement.

Please, dont tell me what I know and dont know. Yes, I have torn shreds off Ruin Johnson and his destructive movie but have never told anyone how they should feel about him or his work.

Yes, Lucas has made a lot of dud films but I see the Star Wars OT as a great gift that for me, makes up for all those duds. Yes, he had a lot of help getting them on the screen but without his vision they would not exist. I never said he was infallible. Not everyone holds the prequels in the same contempt that you and others obviously do and the recent Disney efforts so far have in fact made many feel differently towards them. I feel there were some great moments in them but aren`t really bothered either way.
 
Please, dont tell me what I know and dont know. Yes, I have torn shreds off Ruin Johnson and his destructive movie but have never told anyone how they should feel about him or his work.

Yes, Lucas has made a lot of dud films but I see the Star Wars OT as a great gift that for me, makes up for all those duds. Yes, he had a lot of help getting them on the screen but without his vision they would not exist. Not everyone holds the prequels in the same contempt that you and others obviously do and the recent Disney efforts so far have in fact made many feel differently towards them. I feel there were some great moments in them but aren`t really bothered either way.
“You know better than this” was figure of speech and I merely alluded to the fact that you are capable of critical thinking instead of jumping on a bandwagon or swallowing whatever if it comes from a certain hand. At least that’s the impression I got, I don’t know you personally.
Fair point on the prequels, but the previous comment stating “people hating on Lucas because they didn’t get the prequels they wanted” is equivalent to “people hating on TLJ because they didn’t get the sequel they wanted”. It’s both true as a bare fact and totally erroneus in simplifying it.
 
While wearing his Jedi robes as a disguise!
That’s an example of backwards writing again, nowhere did it say those were Jedi robes until the prequels came in. The only small bit was the Analin forceghost at the end of ROTJ, other than that even Uncle Owen was wearing similar robes and tons of others on Tatooine. But then hey let’s make those Jedi uniforms coz...you know, it’s something you’ll recognize, wink wink.
 
Star Wars is a fairy tale at heart and I might be naive here, but those usually end with "happily ever after". Also, the main point of the sequel trilogy is to be a trilogy. The fact that Nightmare on Elm street 3 didn't end with a bow and final conclusion is not an issue because it wasn't a trilogy that was supposed to be a three-piece act. It was just the third sequel and it wasn't as connected as SW movies were.
So what are our options if it's not a pretty bow and good's triumph over evil?
A Mass Effect-style ending? If you think the negativity towards TLJ is because fans are disappointed that they didn't get their fan-service then wait for the reaction to an ending of that sort.
Or just open-ended? The battle keeps raging on with our Saturday morning cartoon show? How is that a conclusion to a trilogy? And I emphasise that this should be a conclusion because it's planned to be a three-act work from the start. Had they said we're just going to carry a story it would make more sense, but they straight away said it'll be a new trilogy.
I wouldn't mind a kind of bittersweet ending, ROTJ was supposed to end with a tired Luke "walking into the sunset alone" like a spaghetti western hero instead of the ewok disco and I don't think that would've been too bad, even for a fairy tale. Nevertheless it would have been a conclusion too, so Ep 9 does need to be conclusive in a way. Daisy already said she doesn't want to do any more SW films after Ep9, so it kinda needs to end somehow I guess...?

Star Wars, I think, has grown beyond its "fairy tale" origins and into more of a large scale "space fantasy." It's also worth noting that its origins are also heavily rooted in serials like Flash Gordon and Commando Cody (source for Commander Cody's name), which tend to go on and on, although they do have a resolution. As such, I don't think it needs to end with a bow on it, or with a necessarily happy ending with the total defeat of the First Order.

As for Daisy, she's come out after the initial Rolling Stone story and stated that it isn't true that she doesn't want to do more, and thinks acting in these films is "awesome." Kathleen Kennedy has said that LFL is exploring where to take these characters (Finn, Poe, Rey) in the future, so it doesn't sound like this will be it for them. To the contrary, I think they view these characters as the future for the franchise.

So, as to "What comes after Ep. IX?" I would say....Ep. X! I don't know where the story will go, but if I had to guess, it'd be that Ep. IX will end with resolution to several factors, and open-ended on others. Here are my predictions for what gets resolved:

- Rey's parentage (to the extent it's still a question). I don't think it is still a question, but they could always say "Surprise! Snoke was lying to her and playing on her own doubts! She's actually a Kenobi. Hooray!" I think that'd be a lame cop-out at this point, but it could happen.

- Character arcs for Rey, Ben, Poe, and Finn. Rey, I think, has to find comfort in herself and a sense of herself and her purpose in the galaxy as the new "keeper of the flame" (so to speak) for the Jedi. What will Jedi look like with Rey as a leader? Something different from anything we've seen, I'd wager. Poe will likely move from the hotheaded "blow stuff up" pilot to a more sober, stable commander who looks at the bigger picture. The Rebellion/Resistance/Whatever will need him in that role, even as he's still able to hop in an X-wing and kick ass. Finn still has his own road to travel in terms of accepting himself as a hero, his ongoing grudge-match with Phasma (she's not dead yet. She's feeling better!), and what will likely be his desire to free the kids who are being stolen and brainwashed into Stormtroopers. If Finn could avoid his conditioning, could others? (Note: this raises some moral questions about shooting Stormtroopers -- how many are true believers, and how many are just poor kidnapped brainwashed kids? Also, MAN the First Order is evil...**** those guys...) Finally, Ben...he's probably one of the most interesting characters in the series, or at least has the potential to be. We've seen what happens when Anakin turns to evil and then finally returns to the light in a last sacrificial act. What we haven't seen is what it looks like when someone does the things Ben did...and then has to live with the guilt afterwards. He's clearly conflicted. He's clearly full of rage. But...can he be redeemed? Can he give up the mantle of Kylo Ren? Can he give up the darkness? And what would that mean for him if he survived? I could easily see him surviving into subsequent films. In fact, I'd actually really enjoy watching what happens with the character if he ends up as an antihero, rather than a villain.

- Some discrete plot arc for the film. Maybe that'd be the sabotage of the First Order's Stormtrooper facilities or something, kinda like the Droid Army's attack on Kamino. Taking that out and freeing the kids would make for a FANTASTIC ending to this part of the trilogy, and would be incredibly upbeat, I think, and would play nicely into Rose's comment about winning by protecting what we love. And it'd sure beat another superweapon, while still allowing for a kind of large-scale battle.

I actually think you can sort of look at these trilogies as "phases" a la Marvel, just not ones that are fed by a bunch of disparate films with only a few points of connection. Rather, they're kind of like "Season arcs" which conclusively end a "season" but don't end the story overall. So, the "Sequel Trilogy" season would end with a huge blow being dealt to the First Order, the Order becoming leaderless (for now -- you know there's some ******* waiting in the wings to take over), and basically allowing for the next "season" to depict an ongoing battle with the First Order on a more even footing. Or the order might be so crippled by the end of this trilogy that it mutates into something else (and taking out their brainwashing capabilities would certainly do that). Basically, though, you open the door to more stories with these characters in new positions, allowing them to grow as characters, allowing the galaxy itself to grow as a "character" instead of repeating the previous iterations, and show new sides to all of it.

Again, I know I'm just one guy, but I said it many times I really don't mind that Rey is nobody, in fact I really really like that idea. Not too fussed about Snoke either. The main issue is that TLJ hardly offers anything else. Take those away and you have the slow space-chase, the casinoplanet (both of which you yourself have issues with), Luke sulking and a final stand and resolution which left many of us wondering regarding motivations and consequences and a movie that doesn't seem to find balance in tone.
I'm pretty sure most people would have no problem with how Rian played those mysteries off if the rest of the movie was more streamlined, focused and gave something genuinely interesting, and most of all well executed.

I actually liked aspects of the Casino planet, but I do think that the Finn raid was handled kinda poorly. That, however, ties back to the decision to have the slow moving chase, which I do think was a mistake. I mean, I get it sort of in an artistic sense (since it subverts the expectations about how space battles in Star Wars work), but I think it could've been handled better and made more dynamic. Not as dynamic as what JJ usually does (which gets bewildering after a while, and doesn't allow time for characters to breathe), but something a little more action-oriented.

That said, I absolutely disagree that the film offers "nothing." It's just that it's a way more character-oriented film than a plot oriented one, which is really really different for Star Wars. Star Wars characters and characterization in its films is...pretty thin. They tend to be more archetypes than true characters, at least in the films. (The EU stuff obviously develops them a lot more.) Their decisions, however, often spring from fairly minimal characterization. Luke wants to leave Tatooine and have a grand adventure, balks when the opportunity presents itself, and then decides to go after the death of his family. From there, he's mostly just reacting to his surroundings, and we're meant to glean his character from the choices he makes in the films. Empire is the best of the films because it actually goes deeper into his motivations and why he makes the choices he makes. And Empire doesn't "have a lot" going on in it, either, when you break it down. Big battle on Hoth goes poorly for the Rebels, they all run away, and then the most action we see is Han evading Imperials only to get captured and put on ice. Meanwhile, Luke lifts rocks, talks with a muppet, and cuts his training short to go save his friends, at which point he loses his hand, loses Han, and finds out his dad is actually the Big Bad. And yet, everyone loves Empire, with many regarding it as the best of the franchise. I submit that this is because it has the best characterization, and characters' actions are dictated by who they are as people, rather than by "The plot needs to move you over to here." TLJ does the same thing, but does it in a somewhat less dynamic way. Instead of a chaotic chase through an asteroid field, we get...the slow-mo space chase, plus a side jaunt to Macau. But the bulk of the decisions in the film are firmly influenced by who the characters are, rather than just arbitrarily setting up dominoes to get the characters from A to B.

With regards to your dislike of the mystery box approach, I understand and I agree that it usually leads to more disappointment when it's not played off well. But here's a parallel and I'm gonna be stuck in the world of cooking again. I watch Masterchef Australia, it's an elimination-based cooking show. Every Monday the challenge is (guess what) a mystery box challenge. Contestants get a box full of random ingredients plus they can use a set of staples (sugar, eggs, milk, flour, cream, vinegar) and using at least one ingredient from the mystery box have to cook a dish. And guess who's the winner? The one who can cook the best dish from a set of ingredients that they didn't know about and were not collated based on any specific concept. Not the one who makes an omelette from the staples and puts the thyme leaves on top from the box. On top of that, JJ did have outlines for the story that Rian decided to bin and come up with his own (contradictory to his earlier tweet though). As Mark said in the BTS docu "if it turns out to be great it's only because of him (Rian). But if it's terrible then it's also his fault".

Everything I've heard suggests that Rian was told "There's no answer to these questions", or that the answer was exactly what we saw: she's nobody. JJ probably had a plan for playing out further teases of the "mystery," but the resolution itself was always "Rey is nobody." It's even hinted at in TFA (although that might've been cut and only seen in the trailer). People keep asking Rey "Who are you?" and there's never an answer other than "I'm Rey. I was a junk trader on Jakku. I'm nobody." So, Rian may have decided to bin all of the stuff JJ had written up for further teases of Rey's ultimately meaningless ancestry, but...yeah, I'm good with that. I prefer it, actually.

See, I HATE being teased with a "mystery" when there's no actual resolution, or where the resolution is something that makes the questioning feel pointless. I hate this technique in storytelling, because it strikes me as a way to gin up audience investment without actually doing any real heavy lifting. It's relying on meta-storytelling conventions to sell the story itself, and usually indicates that the underlying story is weaker than it should be. Put another way, if the mystery of Rey's parentage is not central to Rey's own journey, or central to the story itself, then it's only being included to make the audience wonder about it, and it's ultimately just a gimmick. It isn't really part of the story -- it's part of the audience's experience of the story. Not the same thing.

If Rian simply dispensed with all the hooplah about building up the mystery for the audience then I'm fine with it. See, Rey knows who her parents were. Or at least, she knows who they presented themselves to be to her. So, the mystry for Rey is only important insofar as it helps to explain her powers to her and to provide her with a sort of ready-built identity. Instead, the answer reveals that she has no ready-built identity, and that means she has to chart the course for herself, making her growth as a character ultimately sui generis. I find that to be a lot more powerful than Rey being a Skywalkernobi, and thereby immediately claiming the mantle of that legacy like putting on a suit of armor. This, again, is how Ben Solo operates: he puts on a suit of armor and adopts a "nom du Evil" just like his grandpappy did to help provide him with an identity. Prior to that, he went into the Jedi order, just like his unkie Luke did, because mom pushed him into it, which also provided him with a kind of identity. I would argue that he kills his own father to try to find his own identity, too. But all of this is just him button-mashing, flailing about to find something -- anything -- onto which he can latch to tell him who he is. It is, I would argue, his greatest weakness, as well as the source of his rage and all his pain. It all stems from this profound sense of emptiness and not knowing who he is. It's also why he and Rey are so connected to each other. In Rey, Ben sees a kindred spirit of someone looking to find who she is, who feels much of the same weight of expectations that he does. But the immense difference between them is that Rey ultimately finds peace in that search, and Ben does not, even as their connection continues.

So, where in all of that does teasing the audience with hints and suggestions at Rey's identity come into play? Nowhere. None of that is meaningful to the characters. All of that is metatextual. All of that is about the audience's experience, and is not remotely organic to the tale itself. All of that is about the audience's journey to learning the truth, rather than Rey's journey. That's why I think it's hacky. You can take an audience on a journey of discovery, but it works best when that discovery is as a result of the audience-proxy character within the story who is on the same journey. It doesn't work as well when the characters know things that the audience doesn't know, and the audience is the one putting the info together.

Again, I'm okay with the decision but there is a difference between character-driven writing and saying that the character wrote the story as an excuse. At the end of the day it's Rian who decided what the character finds important and I think he got it backwards. He first put down the pointer to say this is how I want this character then tried to find a way to tweak the character's mindset to get to his desired point. This is apparent for me when it comes to Luke and his motivations. They are just illogical and all over the place. Rian wanted Luke to be tragic and bitter and tried to reverse engineer how he became that instead of coming up with a plotline that goes from A to B to C based on what we know about them. This is apparent in many places when the movie repeatedly contradicts itself.

Here's another example of character driven writing: Ren offers a place by his side for Rey. What would Rey choose? Considering that she really is a nobody, just been let down badly by a grumpy old guy who was supposed to be a legend and the only person she really had some emotional depth with is Kylo and they just saved each other's asses she may as well do it. She might even have enjoyed the taste of power and success during the fight. Character driven? Yes, because it takes the character's emotions and motivations into consideration. Rian didn't go with it because HE did not want to go with it. It's HIS decision what Rey's decision is. It's HIS decision what's important for Rey. And it's also HIS job to make it clear for everyone in the movie why characters make their choices. Not in the novelization or a Q&A or in an interview.

This gets back to a central issue that I think a lot of people had with the film: Luke's behavior and where it comes from. I understand why people were upset by this, and why they feel like the film doesn't do enough to convey Luke's decision process. I think it makes sense, but I think a big part of the problem is that too much happens off screen to contextualize it, and that requires what may be a heavier lift or greater leap than some in the audience are willing to make. That said, I don't think it conflicts with Luke's character necessarily to have him become so disillusioned in himself, in the Jedi, etc. as a result of the events that precede the film. He's not the head-in-the-stars farmboy he is in ANH. He's not the impulsive warrior we see in ESB. And he's not the calm, collected Jedi we see in ROTJ. He's someone different, who has an additional 30 years of experience, including some pronounced trauma and several years of total isolation. I also don't see Luke's core as being fundamentally changed. Not even in the sense of his moment of weakness. To me, that all fits. But I can see where, if you don't get a bunch of lead-in from background info on what happened during those 30 years, if the fate of the Jedi temple Luke founded is, say, stuck inside a stupid mystery box, then yeah, it will be jarring when you find out the real story.

As for Rey's behavior, I think it's entirely in keeping with what we've seen. Rey goes out of her way to help BB-8 in TFA. She works with Finn to get BB-8 back to the Resistance, too. She's someone who's committed to her friends, and who will act to protect people instinctively. It makes perfect sense, therefore, that she'd reject Ben's offer to rule the galaxy beside him. That's not her, that's not what she wants. Not the way Ben pitched it, anyway. At the core, I think Rey is a protector, and Ben wants to control things. That's going to come into conflict, as we see in the film.

I agree with this 1000% (except that I never really cared for the EU). The problem is that this franchise though seems like it's set in a vast galaxy with endless opportunities is simply just limited, because it's a simple fairy tale that you can only tell so many ways and if you try to break the mold a lot it will not work as a Star Wars movie. There's just not much more there and I think this is where my cynicism towards the series comes from and this is why some loudly declare Star Wars to be dead. They realized this too, most of us swallowed TFA as a reboot and wanted to see what happens with TLJ and just realized that you're either stuck in the same old same old or if you try something new (tonally for example) it won't work. As Jay said in Half in the Bag, it's like trying to squeeze a cinematic universe out of Back to the Future. It's three solid fantasy movies and that's it.

I think that's a narrow view of what Star Wars is or at least what it can be. True, the OT is just a fairy tale, but it's set in a galaxy that has many interesting aspects to it, and that setting hints at the possibility for additional stories. To me, Star Wars is a setting and, to a lesser extent, a "vibe." There's an adventurous spirit to it, and there's definitely an underlying tale of good vs. evil, but the main attraction to me for Star Wars is the setting itself, not the fairy tale. I love the fairy tale, but I love the setting more, in a way, because I see immense possibilities for telling cool stories.

I do think there's a limit to how far you can push the boundaries and tell tonally different stories, but for me at least, I haven't hit that boundary yet. For me, stuff like The Clone Wars and Rebels are good examples of how you can tell wider-ranging Star Wars stories. Rogue One was another good example. I'm hoping that Solo will turn out well, although I'm concerned about its production hiccups and Ehrenreich's performance. We'll see, though.

I absolutely agree that a desire to somehow reproduce the OT but make it different is impossible. It's trying to bottle lightning twice, or worse, like a drug addict chasing the thrill of that first high again and again with increasingly diminishing results. So, I say...don't bother. Focus on the setting and try to stay relatively close to the tone of the originals without just falling into "It's the same fairy tale again!" If one can look beyond the confines of the OT, then I think there's a ton of great stories to be mined from Star Wars. But it's a fool's errand to try to recapture the precise magic of the OT.

That's one of the major reasons I like TLJ. I think it still has the underlying tone of a Star Wars film, but it breaks much of the mold of the OT and in so doing, offers a chance to really tell some interesting new stories. I see that as a feature, not a bug. But I get why people dislike that it does just that. I'm just saying, if what you want is "The same as the OT, but make it feel fresh and new," you're always going to be disappointed. You're different. The world is different. Filmmaking is different. The experience will never be the same, and while I think people understand that on an intellectual level, a lot of them still want Hollywood to give them "The same, only different." I'm glad that TLJ isn't really trying to do that, and I'm glad that it seems like LFL is moving away from that.

My hope is that films like the Star Wars stories will be launchpads for future tales that move away from our familiar characters and settings, and into new territory. Like, maybe Emilia Clarke's character is going to be explored after Solo comes out. Or maybe we'll tell some other stories of the same kind of underworld within which Han and Chewie exist, but which doesn't involve them. Rogue One proved to me that you can tell stories about largely disconnected characters within the Star Wars universe, and still have it (1) feel like Star Wars (and not just because of the OT callbacks), and (2) make it feel different and interesting. TLJ doubled down on that, for me. I'm looking forward to what comes next.
 
Or maybe they just weren`t looking for them.

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To me, hating on George Lucas for not making the prequels you wanted is like throwing shade on Alexander Fleming for inventing penicillin because some people are allergic to it.

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No, please no.

Where is this notion that they weren't looking for them?

Yoda was the most powerful jedi, period. Palpatine knew he wasn't dead. They would definitely be looking for him. Obi wan kicked the snot out of anakin and left him for dead on the banks of the lava river. They'd definitely be looking for him. Furthermore, in ESB/ROTJ BOTH were looking for Luke, big time. Yet they couldn't find him through the force then either. If you could just find someone that way, Old ben never would made it to be old and Dagobah would have been blasted into dust. There were no incidents to suggest that the empire had any reason to think either of them were dead. Maybe that's something that'll be addressed in a stand alone obi-wan flick. Who knows. But now, there's nothing. The writing in ANH make the implication that they though he was dead due to basically age...'old man' and all. In ROTS, he's around 40 and ANH being 18 years or so later doesn't remotely put him in the area death from advanced age. Again, the implication was 'thought you were dead cause i hadn't seen you in so long'.

Hell, presumably the only threads to the emperor/vader between ROTS and ANH were other force sensitives. Would you not be searching for them, then? And if you were, you'd stumble on giant sensations of yoda and ben.

Then in TLJ alone where this 'searching though the force' for people pops up - why did they never stumble upon Rey who has major force ability then? Wouldn't all those force sensitive people out ther kinda, you know, get in the way?

This is the major problem with adding a new concept in chapter 8 - it has to fit with everything that came before or it simply doesn't work. And in this case it doesn't fit when you go back and look at 1-7.
 
That’s an example of backwards writing again, nowhere did it say those were Jedi robes until the prequels came in. The only small bit was the Analin forceghost at the end of ROTJ, other than that even Uncle Owen was wearing similar robes and tons of others on Tatooine. But then hey let’s make those Jedi uniforms coz...you know, it’s something you’ll recognize, wink wink.
I agree, except the retcon happened with Yoda's clothes in ESB.
 
I agree, except the retcon happened with Yoda's clothes in ESB.
I have to admit I hate those robes and the vast majority of the Jedi. The robes don't look like the most appropriate garb to wear when wielding a laser sword while doing all those crazy acrobatics, but even within the Star Wars universe they look lame unless its like Darth Maul with his hood up or something. Beyond the robes I just think the whole Jedi thing has been played out which is why I liked that Rogue One didn't involve them unlike every other Star Wars film. It's great watching normal people in the universe doing heroic things and not just those who can do twenty back flips over a river of lava.
 
Star Wars, I think, has grown beyond its "fairy tale" origins and into more of a large scale "space fantasy." It's also worth noting that its origins are also heavily rooted in serials like Flash Gordon and Commando Cody (source for Commander Cody's name), which tend to go on and on, although they do have a resolution. As such, I don't think it needs to end with a bow on it, or with a necessarily happy ending with the total defeat of the First Order.
Yes, but at its core it’s about good versus evil, dark side versus light side. A political, morally grey Star Wars would be alien to the original concept. Sure it can be done, and after making 6 of those and a tv series they will outweigh the original concept. People for decades thought that Batman is campy, silly with POW and HIT cards and had no concept of the darker nature of the originals. So yea it certainly can be done.

As for Daisy, she's come out after the initial Rolling Stone story and stated that it isn't true that she doesn't want to do more, and thinks acting in these films is "awesome."
It’s funny how much people need to go back on what they said when it comes to this series recently. I didn’t think not wanting to play the character for 20 years and currently working on it being awesome are mutually exclusive anyway.

Kathleen Kennedy has said that LFL is exploring where to take these characters (Finn, Poe, Rey) in the future, so it doesn't sound like this will be it for them. To the contrary, I think they view these characters as the future for the franchise.
Which I think would be more in vein of Rebels and Clone Wars or a standalone film here n there.

So, as to "What comes after Ep. IX?" I would say....Ep. X! I don't know where the story will go, but if I had to guess, it'd be that Ep. IX will end with resolution to several factors, and open-ended on others. Here are my predictions for what gets resolved:

- Rey's parentage (to the extent it's still a question). I don't think it is still a question, but they could always say "Surprise! Snoke was lying to her and playing on her own doubts! She's actually a Kenobi. Hooray!" I think that'd be a lame cop-out at this point, but it could happen.
Agreed 200%, would be a cheap retcon.

- Character arcs for Rey, Ben, Poe, and Finn. Rey, I think, has to find comfort in herself and a sense of herself and her purpose in the galaxy as the new "keeper of the flame" (so to speak) for the Jedi. What will Jedi look like with Rey as a leader? Something different from anything we've seen, I'd wager. Poe will likely move from the hotheaded "blow stuff up" pilot to a more sober, stable commander who looks at the bigger picture. The Rebellion/Resistance/Whatever will need him in that role, even as he's still able to hop in an X-wing and kick ass. Finn still has his own road to travel in terms of accepting himself as a hero, his ongoing grudge-match with Phasma (she's not dead yet. She's feeling better!), and what will likely be his desire to free the kids who are being stolen and brainwashed into Stormtroopers. If Finn could avoid his conditioning, could others? (Note: this raises some moral questions about shooting Stormtroopers -- how many are true believers, and how many are just poor kidnapped brainwashed kids? Also, MAN the First Order is evil...**** those guys...) Finally, Ben...he's probably one of the most interesting characters in the series, or at least has the potential to be. We've seen what happens when Anakin turns to evil and then finally returns to the light in a last sacrificial act. What we haven't seen is what it looks like when someone does the things Ben did...and then has to live with the guilt afterwards. He's clearly conflicted. He's clearly full of rage. But...can he be redeemed? Can he give up the mantle of Kylo Ren? Can he give up the darkness? And what would that mean for him if he survived? I could easily see him surviving into subsequent films. In fact, I'd actually really enjoy watching what happens with the character if he ends up as an antihero, rather than a villain.

- Some discrete plot arc for the film. Maybe that'd be the sabotage of the First Order's Stormtrooper facilities or something, kinda like the Droid Army's attack on Kamino. Taking that out and freeing the kids would make for a FANTASTIC ending to this part of the trilogy, and would be incredibly upbeat, I think, and would play nicely into Rose's comment about winning by protecting what we love. And it'd sure beat another superweapon, while still allowing for a kind of large-scale battle.

I actually think you can sort of look at these trilogies as "phases" a la Marvel, just not ones that are fed by a bunch of disparate films with only a few points of connection. Rather, they're kind of like "Season arcs" which conclusively end a "season" but don't end the story overall. So, the "Sequel Trilogy" season would end with a huge blow being dealt to the First Order, the Order becoming leaderless (for now -- you know there's some ******* waiting in the wings to take over), and basically allowing for the next "season" to depict an ongoing battle with the First Order on a more even footing. Or the order might be so crippled by the end of this trilogy that it mutates into something else (and taking out their brainwashing capabilities would certainly do that). Basically, though, you open the door to more stories with these characters in new positions, allowing them to grow as characters, allowing the galaxy itself to grow as a "character" instead of repeating the previous iterations, and show new sides to all of it.
You know what? Pretty much everything here makes sense. It even reinvigorated a bit of interest in Ep9 and that’s no small feat, sir.
My main gripe though is that it’d be still the same old conflict in one iteration or the other that drags on. What you described is pretty much the ending of ROTJ. A bow on current affairs with space given for further exploration (how will the Republic be rebuilt, what’s with the remnants of the Empire, what’s with Luke’s Jedi agenda, Solo and Leia as a couple, etc) which was explored in the EU that as you said as well had the characters stuck in amber. I’d much rather they put a bow on this trilogy and move on to something much more detached from this civil war and characters.


That said, I absolutely disagree that the film offers "nothing." It's just that it's a way more character-oriented film than a plot oriented one, which is really really different for Star Wars. Star Wars characters and characterization in its films is...pretty thin. They tend to be more archetypes than true characters, at least in the films. (The EU stuff obviously develops them a lot more.) Their decisions, however, often spring from fairly minimal characterization. Luke wants to leave Tatooine and have a grand adventure, balks when the opportunity presents itself, and then decides to go after the death of his family. From there, he's mostly just reacting to his surroundings, and we're meant to glean his character from the choices he makes in the films. Empire is the best of the films because it actually goes deeper into his motivations and why he makes the choices he makes. And Empire doesn't "have a lot" going on in it, either, when you break it down. Big battle on Hoth goes poorly for the Rebels, they all run away, and then the most action we see is Han evading Imperials only to get captured and put on ice. Meanwhile, Luke lifts rocks, talks with a muppet, and cuts his training short to go save his friends, at which point he loses his hand, loses Han, and finds out his dad is actually the Big Bad. And yet, everyone loves Empire, with many regarding it as the best of the franchise. I submit that this is because it has the best characterization, and characters' actions are dictated by who they are as people, rather than by "The plot needs to move you over to here." TLJ does the same thing, but does it in a somewhat less dynamic way. Instead of a chaotic chase through an asteroid field, we get...the slow-mo space chase, plus a side jaunt to Macau. But the bulk of the decisions in the film are firmly influenced by who the characters are, rather than just arbitrarily setting up dominoes to get the characters from A to B.
See, this is where I think misunderstanings regarding why TLJ was received badly by some come from. What you said I agree with fully. The issue is ESB pulled it off really well and TLJ did not. It’s about execution.

So, Rian may have decided to bin all of the stuff JJ had written up for further teases of Rey's ultimately meaningless ancestry, but...yeah, I'm good with that. I prefer it, actually.
This is purely your speculation. JJ might have had perfectly good answers. Unlikely, I admit, but since we’re not privy to what those outlines were we can only speculate.

See, I HATE being teased with a "mystery" when there's no actual resolution, or where the resolution is something that makes the questioning feel pointless. I hate this technique in storytelling, because it strikes me as a way to gin up audience investment without actually doing any real heavy lifting. It's relying on meta-storytelling conventions to sell the story itself, and usually indicates that the underlying story is weaker than it should be. Put another way, if the mystery of Rey's parentage is not central to Rey's own journey, or central to the story itself, then it's only being included to make the audience wonder about it, and it's ultimately just a gimmick. It isn't really part of the story -- it's part of the audience's experience of the story. Not the same thing.
I absolutely agree with that. Terminator Genisys pissed me off big time with planting mysteries to be resolved in sequels which then never happened.
And again, I’m happy with the decision to make Rey just Rey. It wasn’t even such a massive mystery in TFA from a story point of view. What I’m saying is that it was Rian who decided what to do with the mystery. Ultimately it was he who decided that there is no mystery. If you think he made the right choice and played off JJ’s mystery box well then where’s the problem with having that mystery box?

So, where in all of that does teasing the audience with hints and suggestions at Rey's identity come into play? Nowhere. None of that is meaningful to the characters. All of that is metatextual. All of that is about the audience's experience, and is not remotely organic to the tale itself. All of that is about the audience's journey to learning the truth, rather than Rey's journey. That's why I think it's hacky. You can take an audience on a journey of discovery, but it works best when that discovery is as a result of the audience-proxy character within the story who is on the same journey. It doesn't work as well when the characters know things that the audience doesn't know, and the audience is the one putting the info together.
Again I’m not arguing with this in principle. What I’m saying is that Rian took the job to follow up on TFA. He made his decisions about the plot. And whatever went pear-shaped or was not well received is suddenly JJ’s fault? I thought the Masterchef parallel was demonstrative enough. Yes there are people who just put random ingredients in a box and pass it on to the next guy. There are people who have no idea what to cook and there are some who can make it a real masterpiece.
And I really don’t get why everyone thinks “well Rey is Skywalker/Kenobi/forceborn would have been lame so it’s better like this”. Are these really our only options? Nowhere in TFA was it said that Rey knows exactly who her parents were. The question why the saber called to her is completely omitted. And for the millionth time I’m okay with her being Rey and Snoke being Snoke, I hated all the hype and speculation. What I don’t get again is why you act like JJ set an impossible task with the mystery boxes and flame him when Rian had total control over what to do with them and you’re happy with the way he played them off.


This gets back to a central issue that I think a lot of people had with the film: Luke's behavior and where it comes from. I understand why people were upset by this, and why they feel like the film doesn't do enough to convey Luke's decision process. I think it makes sense, but I think a big part of the problem is that too much happens off screen to contextualize it, and that requires what may be a heavier lift or greater leap than some in the audience are willing to make. That said, I don't think it conflicts with Luke's character necessarily to have him become so disillusioned in himself, in the Jedi, etc. as a result of the events that precede the film. He's not the head-in-the-stars farmboy he is in ANH. He's not the impulsive warrior we see in ESB. And he's not the calm, collected Jedi we see in ROTJ. He's someone different, who has an additional 30 years of experience, including some pronounced trauma and several years of total isolation. I also don't see Luke's core as being fundamentally changed. Not even in the sense of his moment of weakness. To me, that all fits. But I can see where, if you don't get a bunch of lead-in from background info on what happened during those 30 years, if the fate of the Jedi temple Luke founded is, say, stuck inside a stupid mystery box, then yeah, it will be jarring when you find out the real story.
I think you are slightly obsessed with this mystery box blaming. :)
I’m perfectly fine with the disillusioned tragic Luke. How it’s pulled off and what reasons and motivations are given is my problem.
Same applies to AOTC. I’m okay with the idea of star-crossed lovers and developing their relationship and the way it steers Anakin from the Jedi way. It was however executed extremely poorly where the characters hardly had any reason to be star-crossed and even less reasons to be lovers.
I was okay with a mystery villain in TPM but the whole plan of his made no sense.
I was okay with Palpatine playing the Separatists and the Republic against each other in ROTS but again the whole plan made no sense.


As for Rey's behavior, I think it's entirely in keeping with what we've seen. Rey goes out of her way to help BB-8 in TFA. She works with Finn to get BB-8 back to the Resistance, too. She's someone who's committed to her friends, and who will act to protect people instinctively. It makes perfect sense, therefore, that she'd reject Ben's offer to rule the galaxy beside him. That's not her, that's not what she wants. Not the way Ben pitched it, anyway. At the core, I think Rey is a protector, and Ben wants to control things. That's going to come into conflict, as we see in the film.
I simply wrote that to show that you can make poles apart different storylines and still call it character-driven. It’s ultimately the writer’s choice what to do with the characters and why.

I think that's a narrow view of what Star Wars is or at least what it can be. True, the OT is just a fairy tale, but it's set in a galaxy that has many interesting aspects to it, and that setting hints at the possibility for additional stories. To me, Star Wars is a setting and, to a lesser extent, a "vibe." There's an adventurous spirit to it, and there's definitely an underlying tale of good vs. evil, but the main attraction to me for Star Wars is the setting itself, not the fairy tale. I love the fairy tale, but I love the setting more, in a way, because I see immense possibilities for telling cool stories.
So as long as there’s X-wings and Star Destroyers and walkers and Stormtroopers...?

That's one of the major reasons I like TLJ. I think it still has the underlying tone of a Star Wars film, but it breaks much of the mold of the OT and in so doing, offers a chance to really tell some interesting new stories. I see that as a feature, not a bug. But I get why people dislike that it does just that. I'm just saying, if what you want is "The same as the OT, but make it feel fresh and new," you're always going to be disappointed. You're different. The world is different. Filmmaking is different. The experience will never be the same, and while I think people understand that on an intellectual level, a lot of them still want Hollywood to give them "The same, only different." I'm glad that TLJ isn't really trying to do that, and I'm glad that it seems like LFL is moving away from that.
This was said many times but I think it’s just the built in defense mechanism of TLJ, whoever didn’t like it can’t take anything that’s different.

Rogue One proved to me that you can tell stories about largely disconnected characters within the Star Wars universe, and still have it (1) feel like Star Wars (and not just because of the OT callbacks), and (2) make it feel different and interesting. TLJ doubled down on that, for me. I'm looking forward to what comes next.
This is where we’ll have to agree to disagree and just accept that our boats kept afloat by different waters. Which is ultimately not a problem whatsoever, because without that there would be no real discussion.:cheers
 
I want to see a really intense and long saber battle, and with nice scenic long shots.

The duels have been pretty short and the last really great lengthy one was the Anakin vs. Obi-Wan duel.

I know it's not Star Wars related, but still one of the coolest fights i've seen that wasn't even a final battle was between Neo and the Smiths in Matrix: Reloaded. If I remember right that sucker clocked in a good 6 minutes and was very interesting to watch!
 
I didn't think that was great either. It fell apart with the dueling while climbing up/over that multi-story support by/over the lava and got downright stupid by deuling while surfing on molten lava, which, would just cook you.
 
I didn't think that was great either. It fell apart with the dueling while climbing up/over that multi-story support by/over the lava and got downright stupid by deuling while surfing on molten lava, which, would just cook you.

They were obviously using Leia-esque force shields. We just didn't know it yet.
 
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