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  1. SethS's Avatar
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    Feb 12, 2018, 1:05 AM - Re: STAR WARS Episode IX #551

    Here’s a great little polemic on how/why this happens from the man I learned everything from:
    http://www.wordplayer.com/columns/wp...e.Failure.html
  2. RPF Premium Member
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    Feb 12, 2018, 1:15 AM - Re: STAR WARS Episode IX #552

    SethS said: View Post
    Here’s a great little polemic on how/why this happens from the man I learned everything from:
    http://www.wordplayer.com/columns/wp...e.Failure.html

    And this quote from that article sums up my frustrations with the ST quite well:

    (As an aside, what is it that draws people to classic properties, only to then get excited about screwing them up? Call it SES, the Starship Enterprise Syndrome. The thought process goes, "Cool! We get to make a film about the Starship Enterprise!" "Bitchin'!" "So, what should we do with it?" "Uh, I got it... let's blow it up!" No... how about instead you tell a great story, a classic story that does justice to the franchise?)

    RJ asked himself what to do with the character of Luke, and decided, "Uh, I got it... let's blow him up! Make him an ornery old man that has withdrawn from the Force and spends his day spear fishing for food and squeezing sea giraffe teats for drink! Then kill him off after a 5-minute remotely projected redemption scene!"

    How about instead RJ could have told a story that achieved justice for Luke's character as opposed to contemptuous subversion?
  3. Member Since
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    Feb 12, 2018, 3:01 AM - Re: STAR WARS Episode IX #553

    I'll wait to read audience reviews for 9 before buying tickets.
    And that's a sad thing for me to say Księgowa Kraków.
    Hopefully 9 will "subvert my expectations," like everyone is throwing around now.
    Last edited by Nifuri; Feb 13, 2018 at 6:33 AM.
  4. sztriki's Avatar
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    Feb 12, 2018, 4:32 AM - Re: STAR WARS Episode IX #554

    SethS said: View Post
    Here’s a great little polemic on how/why this happens from the man I learned everything from:
    http://www.wordplayer.com/columns/wp...e.Failure.html
    This is a great little article, thanks for sharing it! Lots of good ins-and-outs of plot mechanisms and character motivations.


    Spyhunter2k said: View Post
    RJ asked himself what to do with the character of Luke, and decided, "Uh, I got it... let's blow him up! Make him an ornery old man that has withdrawn from the Force and spends his day spear fishing for food and squeezing sea giraffe teats for drink! Then kill him off after a 5-minute remotely projected redemption scene!"

    How about instead RJ could have told a story that achieved justice for Luke's character as opposed to contemptuous subversion?
    I'll be totally honest, I'm okay with the idea of Luke being a disillusioned bitter old man. Execution is the problem for me. And that probably stems from the quote from the article and that it wasn't an inspired story. If someone really wanted to tell the story of Luke being a bitter old person and how he gets his act together and finds the way back to the light I'm sure the outcome would have been much more credible. The thought process was probably more like "let's draft a list of what people would expect, do the opposite and try to fit something of a story around it".

    Something of Ep 9 relevance, I wonder if they will try (intentionally or not) to top the runtime of TLJ. I wouldn't be too surprised if it was as long or even longer to get a proper wrapup to things.
  5. Collectorchris's Avatar
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    Feb 12, 2018, 6:23 AM - Re: STAR WARS Episode IX #555

    sztriki said: View Post
    This is a great little article, thanks for sharing it! Lots of good ins-and-outs of plot mechanisms and character motivations.




    I'll be totally honest, I'm okay with the idea of Luke being a disillusioned bitter old man. Execution is the problem for me. And that probably stems from the quote from the article and that it wasn't an inspired story. If someone really wanted to tell the story of Luke being a bitter old person and how he gets his act together and finds the way back to the light I'm sure the outcome would have been much more credible. The thought process was probably more like "let's draft a list of what people would expect, do the opposite and try to fit something of a story around it".

    Something of Ep 9 relevance, I wonder if they will try (intentionally or not) to top the runtime of TLJ. I wouldn't be too surprised if it was as long or even longer to get a proper wrapup to things.
    I almost think they have to make it as long or longer considering we only moved 12 or so hours forward in TLJ. Either that or have one hell of a time span go by and a very long opening crawl!
  6. TheMechanic's Avatar
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    Feb 12, 2018, 10:27 AM - Re: STAR WARS Episode IX #556

    I hope they return Hux to the bad ass leader he was in TFA. Rian Johnson took a character who was not only a General but the commander of Starkiller Base, Snoke's true right hand man, military tactitian and the man who destroyed 4 or 5 planets and turned him into an inept moron. He should have succeeded Ren and became the Supreme Leader but instead we get crybaby Kylo who can't or won't even own up to the fact that he killed Snoke and blames in on Rey. What?

    Ren did nothing in TFA that shows he's a leader or someone who would even inspire fear or loyalty in his men. He screwed up everything he was told to do in TFA. Fails to acquire BB8, can't get the info from Rey, get's bested by her again in a lightsaber fight, throws tantrums etc. If anything he's the inept moron.
  7. joshvanrad's Avatar
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    Feb 12, 2018, 11:25 AM - Re: STAR WARS Episode IX #557

    I also hope they turn Hux back to where he was in 7. The conflict between Hux and Ren could have been really cool in 8. It was another dynamic that was established and just barely addressed in 8. I wanted to see Hux and Ren struggling for power and acceptance from Snoke. The way they handled that in 8 left me wanting more out of it. Hux is a tyrant. He is the bad guy that you feel nothing but contempt for. In 8 his arc went from tyrant to sniveling dog... What a waste.
  8. SethS's Avatar
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    Feb 12, 2018, 12:05 PM - Re: STAR WARS Episode IX #558

    sztriki said: View Post
    I'll be totally honest, I'm okay with the idea of Luke being a disillusioned bitter old man. Execution is the problem for me. And that probably stems from the quote from the article and that it wasn't an inspired story. If someone really wanted to tell the story of Luke being a bitter old person and how he gets his act together and finds the way back to the light I'm sure the outcome would have been much more credible. The thought process was probably more like "let's draft a list of what people would expect, do the opposite and try to fit something of a story around it".
    This is where I am. I am ultimately okay with what was done with Luke-- but I fully agree there could have been better about it.

    Just spitballing...

    But say in TFA, right after leaving Jakku, the Falcon goes into autopilot. Dirch the 20 minute Rathar scene. Go directly to Maz's place, where Han is waiting, having been alerted his ship was finally activated after a decade. Get all the Han and Maz stuff done at the same time.

    After Kylo takes Rey, instead of going to Leia, Han takes Finn to Luke. Luke can be the same bitter disillusioned dude he is in TLJ, blaming himself for what happened to Kylo Ben. He begrudgingly joins them as they then go to Leia-- and pick up with things as they are-- only with Luke grumbling in the background, and not going on the rescue mission.

    After the battle turns poor for Poe, Luke hops in an X-Wing and goes to help, after Leia tells him he's being an ass. During the battle, he senses Kylo Ren, and lands. Then we get the end that Mark Hamill pitched-- that Luke shows up to save Han, but is too late. He does something heroic, lake maybe he takes out the base, so Rey can still face off against Kylo on her own.

    You could then start TLJ in more or less the same place. Luke can still be apprehensive, but he doesn't need to spend 2/3 of the movie denying he can help. Maybe just the first act.
  9. JPH's Avatar
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    Feb 12, 2018, 12:35 PM - Re: STAR WARS Episode IX #559

    Star Wars has become 2 incompetent armies killing each other. Hux is an idiot. Was Hux ever competent? Lost a planet killer and a dreadnaught AND a flagship. Hux ain't dead yet? Was Snoke his dad? Fickle Kylo is in charge and has no problem with beating Hux. What five-year-old wrote this?

    Arms makers are getting rich. No more epic good vs evil.

    Low self-esteem asian girl falls in love with a guy who had his bags packed and was ready to bail eighteen hours ago, yadda yadda...

    Maybe we can have a 19 hour chase in the next movie, because the 18 hour chase wasn't enough. or...OR an 11 PARSEC Chase!?

    ********CONCLUSION*******************

    If people are done with Star Wars, it isn't their fault, it is on the people who took a dump on the franchise.

    Here is a parallel example: Gee, this restaurant was really good 30 years ago, but the last 2 times I ate there, I got sick. A minority of the people who went there with me are also in the ICU, having been poisoned by the very same restaurant, but they told me I should give the restaurant another try.

    If episode IX is another dare, pushing to see how bad of a film the audience can tolerate, the real question should be, "how much bad film-making will people who really-want-to-love-anything Star Wars tolerate?"

    Unless Yoda sings...then all is forgiven...
  10. SethS's Avatar
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    Feb 12, 2018, 12:55 PM - Re: STAR WARS Episode IX #560

    JPH said: View Post
    Here is a parallel example: Gee, this restaurant was really good 30 years ago, but the last 2 times I ate there, I got sick. A minority of the people who went there with me are also in the ICU, having been poisoned by the very same restaurant, but they told me I should give the restaurant another try.
    .
    Man-- I know this restaurant makes me sick, but I'm going to keep eating at it and posting yelp reviews about how much I hate it cause it used to be good.
  11. JPH's Avatar
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    Feb 12, 2018, 1:15 PM - Re: STAR WARS Episode IX #561

    SethS said: View Post
    Man-- I know this restaurant makes me sick, but I'm going to keep eating at it and posting yelp reviews about how much I hate it cause it used to be good.

    better than incessantly posting review how you're going back after you can tolerate solid foods again
  12. cboath's Avatar
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    Feb 12, 2018, 1:33 PM - Re: STAR WARS Episode IX #562

    This is what i was trying to get away from a page or so ago. This should be about what happens in 9, not complaining about 8.

    I did think it odd people think it needs to be over 2.5 hours to wrap things up. What's left to wrap up?

    Hard to see how things go from the end of 8, to ostensibly the final battle versus the first order in even a 4 hour movie unless you skip a lot of important stuff. The resistance has to, you know, grow to a lot bigger than the group that remains that fits in the falcon. That takes a good while. You have to acquire the equipment (i.e. tons of ships) to actually mount a fight and then actually fight capably and show you can win. They seemingly have to skip all that and jump to a last battle.

    But what's at stake? The FO lost their leader. The next two in line are morons. That's tough to recover from frankly Point is, while an enemy, not one you feel hopelessly outmatched by. In the OT, not only were the two biggest bads still around, they were both percieved as nearly invincible and on top of that the empire controlled everything. At this point, the big bad is dead, the next two are iditiots and the FO doesn't control much of anything. The resistance simply has to get the existing republic worlds to send ships to ward them off or destroy them. Might be a hard argument, but it pales in comparison (massively) to what was at stake in 3 and 6.

    Things change a bit if that's now how they end.

    Flip the PT and OT. Imagine the PT being the first movies and ending with the goods guys getting their butts handed to them and losing everything - only to hot have another movie for 16 years.

    What if the end of 9 sees the FO winning and you have to wait for 10-12 to resolve that? I don't believe they'll do that as the public isn't likely to go for it. Seems more compelling though than the good guys winning and ben dying, etc. None of that's a surprise. They said originally we'd see the making of a villain. We haven't seen the making of anything yet, really. We were presented with a bad guy and he hasn't change since the first scene of TFA. If anything, he's regressed. 9 being him becoming a leader would very much be the making aspect.

    Can the powers that be afford to end it on that note?
  13. JPH's Avatar
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    Feb 12, 2018, 1:53 PM - Re: STAR WARS Episode IX #563

    the point is that the movies are on a rapid descent into cacapoopoo.

    Episode 7 was entertaining if you didn't think about it. Give it a B- or a C.

    Think about it, give it D.

    Episode 8, from the opening crawl about brave rebels fleeing was an F-
    I would give it a G if that was a possible grade.

    Yeah,I know people loved it.

    So now, Episode 9. How do they wrap it up? No more epic love, no more good vs evil, now Star Wars is now about incompetence and arms merchants are getting rich. Does the galaxy finally respond to Leia's distress call? Does it matter? They already took out Star Wars at the knees.

    Actually, Disney already took out basic story-telling/film-making at the knees. I am pretty sure the sound and special effects will be polished, but might as well have Danny McBride as the main, where he finishes every line with double middle fingers, saying, "Biotchezzz."
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    Feb 12, 2018, 2:13 PM - Re: STAR WARS Episode IX #564

    I think Rey should kill Kylo on the bridge of a Star Destroyer in front of the FO top brass. After she kills him she inadvertently finds herself the leader of the FO. What would she do? Demand they all surrender? Merge them with the Resistance which would now have nothing to resist? (What was the resistance resisting in the first place?) Would she make them all stand trial? It would be interesting to see what someone like that would do with all of that sudden power and authority. At least it would be different but I'm feeling they're really going to play it safe with Ep. 9.
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    Feb 12, 2018, 2:57 PM - Re: STAR WARS Episode IX #565

    Why are the Resistance even paranoid about the FO to begin with? Starkiller Base is gone... what leverage does the FO have now?
  16. TheMechanic's Avatar
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    Feb 12, 2018, 3:19 PM - Re: STAR WARS Episode IX #566

    Beats me. What was the Republic 'resisting' in TFA? They ruled the galaxy didn't they?
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    Feb 12, 2018, 4:15 PM - Re: STAR WARS Episode IX #567

    JPH said: View Post
    Star Wars has become 2 incompetent armies killing each other. Hux is an idiot. Was Hux ever competent?...
    Thank you for pointing this out. Hux was never a bad ass leader, even in TFA he was more like a snotty upperclassman at military school. He had some power because of seniority but he doesn't project the vibe of a leader, and he's too young to be believable as a general. Poe played him for a fool with the phone call bit which is just how I saw him anyway.
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    Feb 12, 2018, 4:25 PM - Re: STAR WARS Episode IX #568

    cboath said: View Post
    This is what i was trying to get away from a page or so ago. This should be about what happens in 9, not complaining about 8.

    I did think it odd people think it needs to be over 2.5 hours to wrap things up. What's left to wrap up?

    Hard to see how things go from the end of 8
    I agree shouldn't be long at all Disney can get the lad with the broom at the end of 8 to sweep it all under the mat
  19. Mr Webber's Avatar
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    Feb 12, 2018, 4:36 PM - Re: STAR WARS Episode IX #569

    I`m just looking to Ep Nein to be over and done with so we can all move on from the terrible era of McDisney cherry picking all the bests bits from the OT and filling in the rest with nonsense. I have high hopes the new guys will give something that will restore order to the galaxy.
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    Feb 12, 2018, 5:03 PM - Re: STAR WARS Episode IX #570

    Mr Webber said: View Post
    I have high hopes the new guys will give something that will restore order to the galaxy.
    Have you learned nothing?
  21. Mr Webber's Avatar
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    Feb 12, 2018, 5:18 PM - Re: STAR WARS Episode IX #571

    Greenie said: View Post
    Have you learned nothing?
    Ruin will be gone and McDisney wont be stepping on old dreams so I think it will be positive.
  22. cboath's Avatar
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    Feb 12, 2018, 5:24 PM - Re: STAR WARS Episode IX #572

    Rob V said: View Post
    Why are the Resistance even paranoid about the FO to begin with? Starkiller Base is gone... what leverage does the FO have now?
    That's another issue quite frankly.

    In short - you had tor read external novels (or be told about them). The short version is that after the war, the new republic went weenie and didn't want a strong (or apparently any) military. People found out the remnants of the empire reformed (or whatever) and were amassing strength in the outer rim. Leia (and others) knew this to be problematic and wanted the NR to do something. They played ostriches and stuck their heads in the sand and blew it off. Leia quit the NR and formed a (the) resistance movement to try and keep the FO in check.

    NONE of that made the movies at all.
  23. PantheraGem's Avatar
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    Feb 12, 2018, 5:28 PM - Re: STAR WARS Episode IX #573

    TheMechanic said: View Post
    I think Rey should kill Kylo on the bridge of a Star Destroyer in front of the FO top brass. After she kills him she inadvertently finds herself the leader of the FO.
    You keep what you kill.
  24. TheMechanic's Avatar
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    Feb 12, 2018, 5:36 PM - Re: STAR WARS Episode IX #574

    Hey if they're going for 'different' go all the damn way.
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    Feb 13, 2018, 1:39 AM - Re: STAR WARS Episode IX #575

    Mr Webber said: View Post
    Ruin will be gone and McDisney wont be stepping on old dreams so I think it will be positive.
    It’s over! Disney have the high ground!

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